Education

[Frost Mage]

Since I think we still have much to discuss around these parts around the way formal education has been dealt with, I think we should rekindle the flame in everyone's hearts with a new thread. Now that that hyperbole is done with, let's get down to business.

I think the way schooling has been done in our current society is disgusting. Kids are forced to take up one of the few subjects we give them, because society is telling them that they can't participate in society with out it. While this is for the most part true, the exception being that if you are talented in another subject, they won't care if you have your masters degree in Uni. That does not mean that the system has been set up properly, though. People are not judged on their intelligence, they are judged by a paper that has arbitrarily "tested" them on their overall progress, which really doesn't mean anything.

If you are genuinely interested in the subjects they throw at you in school, that's beyond fine. That being said, they could still focus more on how they teach you subjects, aside from actually teaching subjects you care about. Schools have always seemed more like a prison to me, not a healthy learning environment. I can say without any doubt in my heart, that I have learned more important life skills, and general knowledge from the internet than I have from school.

At the end of the day, can you honestly tell a future writer that algebra will help them later in life with their jobs? I get that teachers want kids to be able to dip into everything, getting them to know what they like, but I doubt that many kids want to be one of the 5-6 molds that are set out for them in society.

TL;DR School is a waste of time, and the more you experience and learn in the real world, the better.

[MARS]

tl;dr

[Deandra]

I know I linked this earlier, but I think Avron was the only person who read it:
A Mathematician’s Lament

Also of interest:
Education Paradigms

[Frost Mage]

tl;dr

I think I love you. That song always comes into my head when I think of how much I hate school...

[Red Guardian]

Many teenagers think the same. I was just like you.

I can say without any doubt in my heart, that I have learned more important life skills, and general knowledge from the internet than I have from school.

I don't disagree but have you considered, at least once, that maybe your school's teaching system is just bad? You could blame your comrades for what you get, most of the time. Teaching's not an easy task and is filled with illusions. The same could apply to more than half of what you're planning to work with.

[MARS]

tl;dr

I think I love you. That song always comes into my head when I think of how much I hate school...

Just for the record, I'm not being serious.

Read the last thread for my opinion on this.

[Rose of Sithis]

Seems like everyone thinks school is a waste of time at some point. I did too. Not anymore, though.

At the end of the day, can you honestly tell a future writer that algebra will help them later in life with their jobs? I get that teachers want kids to be able to dip into everything, getting them to know what they like, but I doubt that many kids want to be one of the 5-6 molds that are set out for them in society.

You can't assume that everyone's first career choice is going to take off without a doubt. What happens when those "future writers" can't become successful writers, and are going to need algebra for their next career choice?

[Frost Mage]

Like I said, formal education can work for some people. All depends on the person.

Many teenagers think the same. I was just like you.

I can say without any doubt in my heart, that I have learned more important life skills, and general knowledge from the internet than I have from school.

I don't disagree but have you considered, at least once, that maybe your school's teaching system is just bad? You could blame your comrades for what you get, most of the time. Teaching's not an easy task and is filled with illusions. The same could apply to more than half of what you're planning to work with.

Compared to most other schools I have toured, the one I was in (I am in online school right now) was better than most out there. The teachers were great, it was set up well, everything. That wasn't the problem.

tl;dr

I think I love you. That song always comes into my head when I think of how much I hate school...

Just for the record, I'm not being serious.

Read the last thread for my opinion on this.

Of course you weren't being serious.

[Dean]

Also of interest:
Education Paradigms

I actually love this video, I watched it back in the day and have been looking for it ever since. I needed to reference this recently when I was discussing education with my old man, but could not find it which was unfortunate.

I love how it talks about schools being too focused on academic related things, and not artistic things. How collaboration should be important, and everything shouldn't be this competition between pupils all the time with tests and the like.
The animation helps an awful lot at getting the point across, really recommend this video to everyone.

[Taters]

Here's my two cents, having gone through standard public schooling, community college and "regular" college:

Schooling is too narrow focused, and for the wrong reasons(though, often, those reasons and the focuses they apply to change from place to place). People complain that there aren't enough art and music programs, and that the ones we have are dying out. Maybe, but I've never been very good with art or (formal)music, so I've never really bothered about it. I will tell you where we are grossly lacking, though: geography. How many of you can point out Laos, Bulgaria, Belize, the Kamchatka Peninsula, and the Gobi Desert on a map? We also lack a qualified perspective on modern history. We get taught history up until, maybe, the 50's, and then it kind of stops. I didn't even know there was a Korean War until after I graduated high school, and I still don't really know quite what exact years the Vietnam War was fought during. We're sort of expected to learn about more recent events, and current events, solely from the news, it seems, despite the fact that almost no one of high school age watches or reads the news. Even then, it lacks the fullness and balanced perspective that teaching it could give.

There is far too much emphasis, at least in my experience, in standardized testing, and, subsequently, "teaching to the test". We need to broaden our focus, not narrow it. There's also too much focus on competition with other countries, particularly in fields such as science and math. Yes, I understand that increasing those will lead to greater technological, medical, and scientific innovation and, potentially, great benefit to our economy(over the economies of others), but it cripples us far more than it encourages us. I would also like to voice my personal complaint that sports are overemphasized to an incredible degree, sometimes(such as was the case in my high school), seeming to outweigh academic and intellectual goals altogether. I also feel that, while physical "education" is a good idea, to a degree, it is counter-productive to create competitions within it, such as the President's Fitness Challenge, or whatever the damn thing was called.

I think an overhaul of the system should start with a "decentralization", if you will; a move from teaching a few subjects with heavy emphasis, to teaching a wide variety of subjects with less, yet equal, emphasis per subject. Firstly, it would greatly improve a young person's ability to plan their future goals, as well as give them many more options, without the need to get heavily invested in them right from the off. Secondly, it would lead to more well-rounded, generally more well-informed people, and, as a consequence, a more balanced and "intelligent" society. We also need to address the fact that many children, particularly those with learning disabilities like ADD(I speak here from experience), have great difficulty with the current system, not because they are incapable of learning, but because they are pigeon-holed, and expected to come out of an identical mold at the end of their schooling, along with everyone else. It would be impractical to attempt implementation of a system that tailors education to each, specific individual, but, at the very least, teachers should be made aware of the various facets of things like ADD(which I would be willing to bet most ADD sufferers aren't even aware of), and to find ways to make standard education more accessible to them, as well as everyone else.

On another note, the teachers unions need to go now. They give benefits based on tenure, not skill, they make it very difficult for any teacher to be fired based on performance(short of committing a crime or gross rule violation), and they, nowadays, aim to have more teachers(meaning more taxpayer money) and fewer students per teacher, which statistics have shown to be exactly as effective as having fewer teachers with larger classes, but with the added effect of each teacher basically making more money for less work. Privatization isn't perfect, but considering the academic track records(private schools tend to do much better on average grades, graduate percentages, and students going on to college), and the fact that privatization more or less evens out the quality of schools across a given area(as opposed to the public system, which, for various reasons, tends to greatly benefit wealthy neighborhoods while leaving poor neighborhoods with poorer, lower quality schools), it seems, on the whole, a better alternative, unless a hybrid system can be created.

[Dirty Spaceman]

Ha! I could point out Laos, Bulgaria, Belize, and the Gobi Desert (not the Kamwhatever Peninsula though) on a map... but, not from anything I learned in school. And I 100% agree with this:

We're sort of expected to learn about more recent events, and current events, solely from the news, it seems, despite the fact that almost no one of high school age watches or reads the news.

I'm a high school student myself, and nobody my age knows anything about current events aside from, maybe, sports. If I asked one of my friends what famous TV host died today, they'd probably say, "um... Don Cherry?"

I was going to write a long-winded opinionated post, but the "Education Paradigms" video pretty much sums it up. We're expected to learn in a linear, standardized, "academic" fashion, not develop our own ideas and collaborate. And that isn't right.

[Will Zurmacht]

We're sort of expected to learn about more recent events, and current events, solely from the news, it seems, despite the fact that almost no one of high school age watches or reads the news.

I remember being forced to watch Channel 1 News in high school every day. That was the show several now-world-famous journalists got their start on. I saw the Silver Fox himself, Anderson Cooper, running around war-torn Bosnia during the 90s. It really impressed upon me both the harsh realities of the world beyond our school's walls, and that I never, ever wanted to become a journalist.

[Wolf]

Anderson Cooper really does look like a silver fox of some kind. Clearly, he isn't human.

[Taters]

We're sort of expected to learn about more recent events, and current events, solely from the news, it seems, despite the fact that almost no one of high school age watches or reads the news.

I remember being forced to watch Channel 1 News in high school every day. That was the show several now-world-famous journalists got their start on. I saw the Silver Fox himself, Anderson Cooper, running around war-torn Bosnia during the 90s. It really impressed upon me both the harsh realities of the world beyond our school's walls, and that I never, ever wanted to become a journalist.

Funny, we had to watch Channel 1, too, but somehow, it barely registered. Frankly, though, that's what I meant: having the kids process the news on their own, with no one discussing it.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

I know I linked this earlier, but I think Avron was the only person who read it:
A Mathematician’s Lament

I did, and I gave it to my teacher to read.

[Will Zurmacht]

Funny, we had to watch Channel 1, too, but somehow, it barely registered. Frankly, though, that's what I meant: having the kids process the news on their own, with no one discussing it.

It's an important concern. In my case I would discuss those things with my parents, or occasionally with friends and schoolmates. None of these sources seemed to know much about what was going on, though, so it drove me to learn about those things on my own (intertube, library, newspaper, history channel). If you can get that trick down, all the neglect or apathy in the world on others' part won't hold you back from knowledge.

[Frost Mage]

Everyone wins when I'm feeling good.

[Frost Mage]

I will say it once and I'll say it again. How schools work (in America at least) is that we have to accommodate and reduce to the lowest denominator. In other words, you're smart and already ahead? Good. Now wait until we get the slackers up to par. Of course, we let in and force many people, some of who don't even speak the native language, in our schools and we have to roll out the red carpet for them. We have to hold their hand through everything. Not even for immigrants, for EVERYBODY. Too much hand holding and spoon feeding is what's ruining the schools and America as a whole. Too many people who don't even want to go to school cause everyone to stoop down to their level. There's a kid in my English class who has and F-. Why? Because all he does is talk and screw around! IT'S BASIC ENGLISH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE! People like him are the reason why our system is failing. He doesn't care, so why should we waste time trying to force him?

No Child Left Behind, that's why.

[Wolfie]

To be fair should the kid be doomed for the left of his life becuse he feels he dotn care now?


Also I;m home schooled I finishe two days of nomral school work in 3 and a half hours, and thats with a whole math thing!


Also I can finish SOME whoe year coruses in less then a month, becuse I dont have to wait

[Will Zurmacht]

There's a kid in my English class who has and F-.... He doesn't care, so why should we waste time trying to force him?

Because he needs to at least be able to read enough to make out my Big N' Tasty special order on the McDonald's screen. And I'm not even being facetious.

[Wolfie]

I should probably add that he is 18 going on 19 years old...

I still stand by it, even at that age we are... not reddy for whats ahead, we have no idea, my mother was the same way at the time but she became one of the best pepole\nurses I know, now back then they did not have no child left behined but how many where left behined that at the time where kids and where just living life that if not left they would of become great pepople?

by 18- 19 one would hope he at least is relzing he needs to get his butt in gear I'd agree but even then should evrey one be punished for what they felt thgout did as a teen? for the rest of their lifews?

I'm not sure if the other options is leave kids where they are that no child is the worst.

[Frost Mage]

The meat is strong with you, Will.

I do online school, which runs through the same public school district that my all the other schools in the city are under. I have online live classes where there is a group of say, 30 kids, a teacher, and a whiteboard that the teacher uses, and sometimes students can use, with permission. Other than that, it's just like school work, except online, and 10x more exploitable. Sure, since I've been slacking off this year, and since this is my first year in online school and it's new to me, I'll probably few 'F's here and there, but as long as I pass this year, I think I'll be fine. Every other year I've gotten near straight 'A's, and since I've already been accepted to a nice charter school, I'm not too worried.

[Velothi]

It'd be really nice if American education wasn't so forcefully nationalistic and alienating of those who 'dare' not decide to assimilate.

Typically American education in general is just meant to give you some core subjects, but it doesn't really prepare you for the 'Real World'. There are a few things teachers say that are true (what you do in high school will be barely significant later in your life) but in general I'd criticize the function of how American schools promote 'diversity' yet there is little diversity there to begin with.

[Deandra]

Also I;m home schooled I finishe two days of nomral school work in 3 and a half hours, and thats with a whole math thing!

Also I can finish SOME whoe year coruses in less then a month, becuse I dont have to wait

Maybe there's something to be said for spending a bit more time on things you're learning, or on things you're typing up to post online

[Frost Mage]

Like I said, the imagination involved in fantasy worlds and roleplays will grant you knowledge far greater than a teacher can preach.