Is Mer actually superior to Man? Tell what you think and why

[LongLiveTheEmpire]

Hello. I've been recently taking into consideration how much High Elves boast their superiority and yada-yada and what-not. But could they actually be right? I mean look at it. Men have lifespans of say... around 60-100 years. Somewhat the lifespan of Humans today. But if you look at elves, they have lifespans hundreds of years longer than man, and therefore can grow to become more intelligent. (Their life can always be ended short of course but that's not the point) Plus of course their natural affinity for nature (Wood Elves) and Magic (High Elves, Dark Elves). I mean, the power of Magic and Bow could take down armies of soldiers if used right. And what do us men have? Swords and shields basically, we are forced to get up close and personal, that, or use Imperial archers who are most definitely not as skilled as per se Wood Elves who have trained with bows all their life AND have a natural affinity for it. I mean with Magic anything is possible and the only means man has of Magic is Bretons, who either side with the Legion (I don't think there are many Bretons in the Legion) or stay at home in High Rock and fight their own wars. The only disadvantage I think Elves have is numbers, I'm pretty sure there are alot more humans than elves, and numbers can easily overpower, but I might be mistaken. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I changed the title up so I could hear some more opinions from people! I hate it when people just vote in the poll and dont offer their voice. Speak up guys xD

[Witchery]

While their superior life spans are impressive, elves haven't got that much on men. I think they're pretty equal.

[Derp53]

they each have their own individual abilities and stuffs but ya it's difficult compare an apple to an orange so i'll have to say no

[LongLiveTheEmpire]

Alright thank you both for your opinions. This is a good start I hope to see more soon.

[House of the Wolf]

Mer are usually physically weaker than men, while men aren't as inclined towards magicka. They Yin-Yang each other.

[Derp53]

Mer are usually physically weaker than men, while men aren't as inclined towards magicka. They Yin-Yang each other.

your forgetting about imperials and bretons who both have the ability to use magic quite effectively

[OblivionDuruza]

Also forgetting that the Dunmer are amongst the most feared warriors on Tamriel, and are not physically 'weak' and that the Imperials are not necessarily physically 'strong'. I really don't think that it's fair to compare the two.

And for the record, why are the Beast races left out?

[Derp53]

that is a good question if u compare the beast races i guess we could say there are a balanced mix between magic regarding combat and magic use but khajiit are primarily combat. and it's not like imperials are weak yes u make quite a point duruza that dunmer make a formidable spellsword/warrior but imperials are better in terms of being well rounded, meaning that they can practice a variety of different skills while dunmer are focused on magic predominantly.

[House of the Wolf]

Also forgetting that the Dunmer are amongst the most feared warriors on Tamriel, and are not physically 'weak' and that the Imperials are not necessarily physically 'strong'. I really don't think that it's fair to compare the two.

And for the record, why are the Beast races left out?

Mer are usually physically weaker than men, while men aren't as inclined towards magicka. They Yin-Yang each other.

your forgetting about imperials and bretons who both have the ability to use magic quite effectively

You mean we weren't generalizing? Hmm.. Me thought we were based on OP.

[OblivionDuruza]

Generalising can be done as far as race goes (e.g. Bosmer are the finest Marksmen in Tamriel), but to extend it further is a little extreme, considering Bosmer are not at all near as Magically talented as Altmer, and Imperials are not really that physically imposing, etc.

@derp: Originally the Imperials were seen as 'light' warriors, and if you look at their stats: their strength is no greater than that of the Dunmer, and they are described as "physically less imposing than the other races" and as "light infantry".

That being said, I by no means mean that they are weak.

[Derp53]

Generalising can be done as far as race goes (e.g. Bosmer are the finest Marksmen in Tamriel), but to extend it further is a little extreme, considering Bosmer are not at all near as Magically talented as Altmer, and Imperials are not really that physically imposing, etc.

@derp: Originally the Imperials were seen as 'light' warriors, and if you look at their stats: their strength is no greater than that of the Dunmer, and they are described as "physically less imposing than the other races" and as "light infantry".

That being said, I by no means mean that they are weak.

ah there is the loophole in your argument, i completely agree with you that imperials aren't weak but in general to describe them as light infantry would indeed be generalization considering i have made several imperial heavy armor knights in oblivion and skyrim, true, their base stats start out very similar to dunmer base stats but as the character progresses imperials do work well with all kinds pf play styles. hence their advantage over certain species of elf like bosmer. yes you could make a bosmer heavy tank character but it wouldn't they would be effective as an imperial or nord heavy armor character. the mer race with the most proficient pure combat abilities are the orcs.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well, it's the game making that assessment, not I, and as I said before, generalisation on the basis of race is common place. That being said, due to the distinction between the two Imperial cultures, yes, there are more conventional Western Fantasy Knights, etc. within the Imperial culture, and I don't deny that, I'm just quoting the game.

[Generalno1]

moved

[OblivionDuruza]

As I said, I don't believe it's fair to compare them, however, I've been considering the subject and, I believe there is some justification to the Altmeri view of superiority as a race and society:

The High Elves confidently consider themselves, with some justice, as the most civilized culture of Tamriel; the common tongue of the Empire, Tamrielic, is based on Altmer speech and writing, and most of the Empire's arts, crafts, and sciences are derived from High Elven traditions.

[Derp53]

you do have a valid argument as the altmer were originally the first civilized race but that doesn't mean that other races and cultures are less efficient with it. look at the septims, they put the altmer language to better use than altmer. they essentially ran an empire with a foreign language, thats not easy.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well I'm not saying it's necessarily true, I'm just saying that the developers (at least Douglas Goodall) obviously see some justification, or rather, intended there to be some justification, in that the Mer held the first civilisation of Tamriel and that the men races either invaded from elsewhere or rose up to usurp power from the Mer. What I mean is, I don't think the game was constructed for the Altmer to be pretentious snobs without cause, that role falls to the Imga.

[Arterion]

The mer are from a biologic point of view far superior to men. They have faster reflexes, keen eyes, better hearing, partial night vision, longer lifespan, a very physical connection with the mercurial forces and a partial resistance to elements or to diseases. This we find out if we mash together the lore of all the mer races. The humans have the only advantage in their numbers, they simply reproduce faster and are way more fertile.

I belive that a sword swinged by a Bosmer hurts as much as one swung by an Imperial, probably the elf will swing it faster and with his keen eye would even strike you there where it hurts most. The advantage of men in the field of war is their unit coehesion, their number and a stong will to overcome the many adversaries, lets call it the "human spirit".

If we extend this observations to culture we also see a clear superiority of the elven culture. Be it dwarves, high elves, dunmer or bosmer and to certain extent the orsimer, each race developed a trully unique culture with its strenghts and weaknesses. As in all fantasy settings it comes down to this, the elves are a specialist race while the humans are the generalist race. The first are the indisputed masters in a certian field, the second are diverse enough to adapt to any situation.

Usually the ingame elves cosider themselves superior to men not becouse of their biological advatages but becouse of their superior culture and as some might argue their divine origins. As Duruza said, the elves created what is considered "culture" in Tamriel and they dominated becouse of this culture for millenia during the mythic and merethic eras. A testament to the power of their culture is that even nowdays elves are a trully formidable people.

But not mistake the above as an argument for the superiority of the elves or a biased pro-elves inclination. It is lore fact, whether we like it or not. Every single culture on Tamriel has felt the touch of the elves and were the elves the ones who taught the many races the concept of civilization, order and literature, even if the so called "lesser" races were in the past the slaves of elvenkind. I dare not think if it would be otherwise, if elvenkind would be subject to human domination. We have seen in the many eras of the Empire that this was not a good thing and far from a golden epoch.

Thus, I say, the elves are from all points of view superior to the humans, but their greatest weakness is their innate hubris, the very reason for the decline of the elven empires and the dawnfall of the elven race, a race which even so far removed from their golden age are still one of the most formidable people in Tamriel.

[OblivionDuruza]

Fair point, additionally, along the same vein, the Altmer's original resistance to Paralysis, and later Disease, was explained by the game Lore as that:

sublime physical natures make them far more resistant to disease

[House of the Wolf]

The Annotated Anuad explains it pretty well:

While the Elves' predecessors were walled-up trying to preserve the culture of the Old Ehlnofey, the predecessors of Man and Beast were wandering the outer lands hardening and learning to survive. This holds true to modern in-game times, where Men/Beast are generally more rugged and (as was put) adaptable than their Elven neighbours.

Taking into account even so much as the Great War, where the Elves had driven the Empire (predominantly human) as far north as the Jeralls, only to find a resurgence pushing them back as south as the former southern border. And in Hammerfell, where the legion and Alik'r militia were close to annihilation, they were able to drive the Elves back to the southern coast.

Human supremacy lies in their ability to adapt and their will to survive. The Elves' inability to stem the tide against them in that particular conflict alone is testament to their inherent deficiencies. Take into account the Red Year for the Dunmer; the loss of territory in Eastern Valenwood to the Khajiit; and even the loss of Orsinium by the Orcs (the hardiest of Mer-blood), and you see that the Mer are slow to change and to response.

When it comes to culture, Mer--hands-down--take the cake. From crystalline cities to the creation of written-language, to sophisticated moving/living cities like Falinesti, and to the entire cultural devotion to magicka (of which has/had guarded their homelands for many millennia), the Elves are the Ancient Minoans.

So in totality, no--the Elves are not superior to Men as they both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Will Zurmacht]

Pound for pound I think Mer are clearly superior, for the reasons given above (though I'd like the underscore the amazing innate Altmeri/Bosmeri disease resistance: 75% per Oblivion). Physique, arts, magicka, and so on. But this very superiority can lead to a social weakness, where each powerful and prideful individual or clique strives with the others for dominance. Imagine a mageocracy or say, Renaissance Italy, where each group struggles viciously for advantages over its peers, and this competition becomes a key part of the culture.

I'd contrast that with what I view as Mens' trump card: their gift for organizing. The creation of a political structure that can weld all the disparate cultures of Tamriel together, and hold them together for centuries is a monumental achievement. This compensation of organizational cunning for individual inferiority, combined with the natural practicality and drive given to short-lived races has allowed Man to dominate heretofore.

Which is where the Thalmor come in. By my lights the Thalmor seem to be driving Mer more and more toward an imperial (small i) style of governance, one based on war and national cohesion like the early Empire. The Thalmor offer unity of purpose and a much-needed shot in the arm of will to power for the elves. In other words, the greatest threat to the hegemony of Man is that Mer have begun to copy Man's greatest idea: the Empire...

[Derp53]

if u look at it that way then yes mer can overcome man in that sense, leaving men the advantage of numbers only, but the question still stands, where do beast races fit in?

[Witchery]

The mer are from a biologic point of view far superior to men. They have faster reflexes, keen eyes, better hearing, partial night vision, longer lifespan, a very physical connection with the mercurial forces and a partial resistance to elements or to diseases. This we find out if we mash together the lore of all the mer races. The humans have the only advantage in their numbers, they simply reproduce faster and are way more fertile.

Khajiit are far superior to mer in night vision, can boast keen eyes, and have (I'm assuming) "cat" like reflexes. Cats, also, have incredible hearing, so I'll add that to the Khajiit's list. Does that make beasts better than men? No.

I belive that a sword swinged by a Bosmer hurts as much as one swung by an Imperial, probably the elf will swing it faster and with his keen eye would even strike you there where it hurts most. The advantage of men in the field of war is their unit coehesion, their number and a stong will to overcome the many adversaries, lets call it the "human spirit".

Not necessarily. Wood elves, are, in general much smaller and weaker than Imperials. As stated before, Imperials are considered "light infantry" (again, on general) and can probably swing a sword just as fast, if not faster. Elves, as demonstrated be the Thalmor, are just as capable as humans when it comes to a strong will and the ability to organize their (however small compared to humans) numbers.


Just to address a few things there . . .

I think that they're equal. The elves, the men, the beasts. They all have cultures (which are superior is a matter of debate. I think they're all wonderful, personally. A small, wooden Nord village is just as beautiful as a High Elven city, and a beautiful Breton kingdom is as great as a camp of Khajiit), they all have diversity (not every High Elf uses magic, not every Khajiit picks pockets and not every Nord swings axes) and they all have the opportunity to prove whether they're superior to others or not.

I think it comes down to the individual man, mer, or beast. Are their actions more noble than another? I know we're talking a race as a whole, but I don't think we can actually do that. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Not all elves are going to be educated, master wizards. Not all beasts are barbaric lesser races that deserve to be enslaved. Not all humans are inferior beasts that will never know what true culture is. Each individual member of a race has the chance to be great, no matter if they're Bretons or Orcs. They shouldn't be judged on whether or not their heritage is respectable. (Not to mention races fighting amongst themselves due to heritage. "Gray Mane or Battle-Born?")

[LongLiveTheEmpire]

Pound for pound I think Mer are clearly superior, for the reasons given above (though I'd like the underscore the amazing innate Altmeri/Bosmeri disease resistance: 75% per Oblivion). Physique, arts, magicka, and so on. But this very superiority can lead to a social weakness, where each powerful and prideful individual or clique strives with the others for dominance. Imagine a mageocracy or say, Renaissance Italy, where each group struggles viciously for advantages over its peers, and this competition becomes a key part of the culture.

I'd contrast that with what I view as Mens' trump card: their gift for organizing. The creation of a political structure that can weld all the disparate cultures of Tamriel together, and hold them together for centuries is a monumental achievement. This compensation of organizational cunning for individual inferiority, combined with the natural practicality and drive given to short-lived races has allowed Man to dominate heretofore.

Which is where the Thalmor come in. By my lights the Thalmor seem to be driving Mer more and more toward an imperial (small i) style of governance, one based on war and national cohesion like the early Empire. The Thalmor offer unity of purpose and a much-needed shot in the arm of will to power for the elves. In other words, the greatest threat to the hegemony of Man is that Mer have begun to copy Man's greatest idea: the Empire...

Best post in this thread! xD I love it. Reading what you guys said, In my personal opinion I believe them to be equal. While Mer may be superior in the means of intelligence and culture, Man has the power of diplomacy and order. Without the two, the Empire wouldn't exist at all! I see it now!

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Oh hai thar Aldmeri Dominion..did you miss me? *trollface*

Giant Stompy elfkilling robot aside, the strengths of men have already been named. Political savvy, adaptability and rate of reproduction. Barring some hidden superweapon or a series of victories based on blind luck alone I'd say the Thalmor won't ultimately prevail.

[enyamerT]

Interesting that no one mentions the advantage Men have in sheer physical power and endurance. Nords and Redguards are some of the best stand-up fighters in Tamriel. This is somewhat counterbalanced only if you count Orcs among the Mer - and the Mer themselves have spent several millennia trying to NOT consider them as elves.

And it remains to be seen how well the Thalmor's empire building will go. The Cyrodiilic empires had an advantage in that they attempted to treat their client states as equals (at least to one another), and frankly I think the Thalmor are too wrapped up in their own racial superiority to be able to accomplish this.