The Stormcloaks

[Giordano]

Well their racism for one. Actually, funny I just thought of this: Has anyone ever noticed that after you complete the civil war in the Empire's favor, one of the remarks you may get from Imperial guards is something along the lines of them being glad to control the east of Skyrim, in case they want to invade Morrowind? Yet the anti-mer Stormcloaks have no such remarks when they control everything. O.o

This is most interesting, but surely it doesn't mean the Empire wants to invade the Dunmer, but rather, liberate Morrowind from the Argonians and rebuild it.

[ThePainkiller88]

Well their racism for one. Actually, funny I just thought of this: Has anyone ever noticed that after you complete the civil war in the Empire's favor, one of the remarks you may get from Imperial guards is something along the lines of them being glad to control the east of Skyrim, in case they want to invade Morrowind? Yet the anti-mer Stormcloaks have no such remarks when they control everything. O.o

This is most interesting, but surely it doesn't mean the Empire wants to invade the Dunmer, but rather, liberate Morrowind from the Argonians and rebuild it.

Well, from the way they say it, it clearly doesn't imply they want to save the Dunmer from anything. :/

[OblivionDuruza]

The Dunmer now live in self-governance centred on the Isle of Solstheim, whilst still within the Empire, from all indications I have seen. As such, I don't think there's a lot to indicate the Empire would go to war with, or or attempt to conquer, Morrowind, or Black Marsh, what with more pressing issues closer at hand.

That being said, it's an interesting topic, if a bit tangential to this one, considering I don't want to talk about he Empire or Thalmor here, so much as the Stormcloaks themselves, as separate from the conflict, and potentially even from a development perspective.

[DikaSmausha]

Isnt the true culture of the Nords is to fight for what you believe in? It doesnt matter if Ulfric used the Thuu'm, that is a nordic art. Ulfric is a true Nord all-around, but a true king would always try to help its people, not only Nords, but the other races. Face it: Nords are fighters, and that will alwyas ring true. But, something both sides are to ignorant to realize is that if the 'Cloaks and the Empire team together, they could destroy the Thalmor. Like said, Toryyg was a true Nord, and, if asked, would have teamed with united the empire of Skyrim and the Stormcloaks to face the Thalmor.

[Redguard_Master]

I dunno if it'd be that simple. The Skyrim province was still fully behind the empire during the war. It was the anger over the end of war treaty that divided skyrim.

[HatofMadness]

Bulbfric! Bulbfric! Bulbfric!

[OblivionDuruza]

I would beg to differ, as I don't believe the Nordic culture is as shallow as simply fighting for a cause and the notion of strength. The fact that Ulfric used Thu'um, stepping outside the generally recognised bounds of a duel (i.e. same weapons, decided upon prior to the actual combat), and the fact that many Nords no question his honour, even Torygg, who we know respected Ulfric, is indication to me that Ulfric acted dishonourably, and hat he did not need to do so, as he should have been able to defeat Torygg without using The Voice, and demonstrated his power elsewhere, perhaps by shouting without a target, or directed against the Thalmor ambassadors as he slew them and sent a decisive message to the Thalmor abroad, "get out of my Kingdom".

[House of the Wolf]

Actually, Ulfric's actions were highly honourable. It's his enemies and those who don't understand Nord traditions that claim otherwise. I just played through both sides of the Civil War, and while many on the Imperial side question his strategy/understanding of the politics at hand, only Tulius and Elisif question his honour.

He marched through the front gate of the city, up to the palace, into the thrown room, challenged Torygg openly and killed him. It appears that the only reason he ran was because the guards and Legion stationed there were trying to kill him. Honour =!= stupidity. And when you deliver the message to him, from Balgruuf (who himself says that Ulfric is an honourable man), he treats you with respect and sends you back to let Balgruuf know that he (his army) is coming. And as Irileth stated in both storylines: Ulfric sends his army to prove their strength against Whiterun, as Ulfric has already proven his own strength (symbolically) against Torygg.

[OblivionDuruza]

As I said, I beg to differ, as it's Nords and not just Imperials saying it, and more to the point, by the comments of High King Torygg in Sovngarde, who is proven to be a True Nord by the fact he resides there:

I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?

This isn't me speaking pro-Imperial by any stretch, this thread stands independent from anything outside the Stormcloaks and the Nords, or at least, that was my intention.

[House of the Wolf]

...if showing up in Sovngarde is automatic-proof of an honourable Nord, you just proved yourself wrong. If you complete the Imperial side and kill Ulfric, he shows up there as well.

Again, not even Rikke--the straight-shooter she is--questions Ulfric's honour. Not liking Ulfric =!= calling Ulfric dishonourable.

[OblivionDuruza]

I'm aware that Ulfric also shows up in Sovngarde, however I wouldn't say Sovngarde is 'automatic proof' of a Nord's righteousness, so much as valour, and I'd use the 'automatic proof' label more on one's being permitted into the Hall of Valor. That being said, my point about Torygg is that he's not an Imperial milkdrinker who can be called un-Nordic, IMO, simply because he's not up in arms fighting for independence.

That being said, as such, I've not exactly got it in for Ulfric, aside from the issues I outlined in the OP. Why kill Torygg by use of The Voice to demonstrate ones own power, when one could have defeated Torygg by skill and prowess alone, proving one's right to lead in the old Nordic way, and demonstrated ones power against the real enemy of Skyrim and her people, the Thalmor.

[House of the Wolf]

Because the Thu'um is predominantly a Nord-art. Yes, it's contradicted by the fact that any race you (the PC) choose can become Dragonborn, but other than that..it is recognized as exclusively-Nord.

Any warrior (Redguard, Imperial, etc.) could have walked in and simply killed Torygg, if they were skilled enough. To use the Thu'um to kill Torygg was Ulfric's way of saying "I'm a True Nord, because I'm demonstrating the power that True Nords can attain." That's the statement he was making. The point was to show how weak Skyrim had become under the Empire's yoke.

[OblivionDuruza]

I am well aware of the nature of Thu'um, as the gift of Kynareth, to the Children of the Sky, however, as I said, Ulfric had ample opportunity to demonstrate this power outside of a duel setting, one which dictates honourable combat as per pre-established conditions and opponents equally equipped for combat. It does nothing to prove Ulfric's power more if he uses Thu'um to slay Torygg or Elenwen, it does however, effect his honour in relation to the duel to use The Voice to slay Torygg, and not his own skill.

[House of the Wolf]

And how do you know that? There's nothing in any of the lore defining what he did as a) a duel or b) dishonourable. There are no terms described in its association, nor any details to that regard.

And Ulfric did use his Thu'um; Ulfric used the Thu'um to help oust the Forsworn from Markarth, apparently to great affect.

The Nords are a warrior race, and as a warrior race a great deal of emphasis is laid into symbolism. Hence the whole "Give him my axe; he'll know what it means" part of the Civil War. Ulfric using his Thu'um was a similar act saying "I'm a True Nord, and you were too weak to defend the High Throne, let alone Skyrim", without needing to say it.

[OblivionDuruza]

In response to A) yes, it's referred to as a duel and as a challenge a number of times in-game, unless I am mistaken. Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel, and from the 'brawls' we see in-game, we know the Nords are not unfamiliar to the traditional notions of the duel in our world.

In response to B) I feel the comments of many Nords, and of Torygg, beg to differ.

As such, as outlined in my thread, True Nordic Culture, more than strength and bravery, although not without these, is Honour in the Nordic culture, and I feel i's wrong to label them as only a warrior race, and I also feel that this does not give them enough credit. Now I'm not saying that it is not a significant aspect of their culture, that I do not believe and you're right in the example of the Axe, etc., I just don't feel it's the only aspect, as the Bards College, the Meaderies and the Skaal, etc. seem to indicate.

[House of the Wolf]

Again, let's entertain this argument of yours that this "duel" had any kind of rules. What were they? Can you cite them? Was it even a duel? I've never heard it, in-game, called a duel. Not even Elisif said that his use of the Thu'um was somehow out of bounds, just that it was "terrible" and loud.

As far as his honour, only Tullius, Elisif, and Torygg seem to question it, and Tullius is an Imperial hell-bent on killing him, Torygg was killed by him (therefore isn't too happy with him), and Elisif was the dead King's wife.

And all that about your thread would be relevant if we weren't talking about Ulfric, a warrior-Jarl, and Torygg, who is supposed to be the strongest of the warrior-Jarls as High King.

[OblivionDuruza]

I don't think we need to entertain it at all, I'm fairly certain it is referred to as such in-game, or at least that the implication is fairly clear in that Ulfric challenged Torygg, I don't think that the challenge is disputable.

As I said before, there's evidence to suggest that the Nords entertain the same notions of the duel western society did/does:

A duel generally signifies an arranged engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with agreed-upon rules. [...] The duel was based on a code of honour.

I believe that both the brawls and Wizard Duels, in addition to the unimplemented duels that were discussed pre-release, all support this notion, in their very character.

As such, matched weapons means, matched weapons, that is just as you can only use fists in a brawl and Magic in a Wizard Duel, you can only use mundane weapons in this duel, and the use of The Voice extends past this, although a traditional Nordic art. If there's evidence of a challenger shouting a Nordic King from his throne in the past, then I'll reconsider, provided the Nordic King was not himself a practicer of Thu'um, that is to say, it was not a common art at the time, as it has been at different stages of Nordic history.

As to his honour, Nordic NPCs other than those you mention question Ulfric, including Guards and many residents of Solitude, iirc, and other aside from this. I'll continue to collect quotes as screenshots and link you to my photobucket album on the subject when I upload them.

[House of the Wolf]

He challenged him...but to what? It's highly unlikely "duels" exist in a place such as Skyrim, and the brawls you get involved in are bare-fist because the goal isn't to kill them. And again, even if it were a "duel", how do you know what the rules/terms/agreements were? It's not listed/mentioned anywhere at this point.

As far as his honour, a) guards have dozens of sayings, and they pretty share them all (except for quotes revealing a new location, which is region-specific), and even the guards in Windhelm share the same quotes from the general pool...including "Did you hear? Ulfric murdered the High King with his voice?", and they're generally understood to be Stormcloak-esque, meaning that it is just random banter that's a separate part of the game. and b) I've never heard anyone, besides the aforementioned two question his honour, just saying that they don't like him.

[OblivionDuruza]

I beg to differ once more, firstly, I ask, to what else would one challenge another? And secondly I'd point out the Nordic people of this world, from whom the Nords are undoubtedly inspired, were privy to a form of the duel, and as such, as a Medieval fantasy, the notion of the duel is not unfamiliar, it's not something exclusive to pistols and the 18/19th century.

[House of the Wolf]

To your 1st) To the death, apparently, like the Kings of old.

2nd) Holmgangs are probably represented far more by the random brawls throughout Skyrim than by the mortal combat between a King and his challenger.

[OblivionDuruza]

A duel can be to death, so I fail to see how it is necessarily different, or that the 'old ways' stipulate that death does not involve a duel, which is a recognised non-murder from of brining death to a person, via consent.

As for brawl and Wizard duels, I believe more conventional duels were to be implemented at one stage, and for me, this is sub-Lore, considering it was talked about pre-release.

[b3rgx]

The nords are a warrior race, founded on tradition and principle. The issue of what is/isn't acceptable in a duel is negated in my opinion. It is tradition, so it should be unspoken. A true nord should just know. There shouldn't have to be a text that everyone goes by.

Although i don't think the using of the dragon shout is dishonorable, i do think the use of such a sacred part of nordic culture just to prove a point, and while doing so is forsaking the teachings the Greybeards bestowed upon Ulfric, IS dishonorable.

Now about the stormcloaks:

A) i'd probably rebel against the empire if the worship of my God was banned, however i accept that their hand was forced by the Aldmeri Dominion. If the empire had not outlawed Talos worship, they'd have been decimated.

B) The issue of racism is a secondary issue, not openly embraced by the Stormcloak rebellion as a movement, though embraced by numerous particpants of that movement. The empire's stance of racism isn't at all racism. The empire's choice to go after the Aldmeri after dealing with the stormcloaks isn't a racist stance, they are at war with the Aldmeri. That's patriotism.

Although members of the stormcloaks generally despise members of other races and openly harass these races. Even going as far as wishing skyrim to be a pure nord nation. That's racism.

C) Ulfric lacks the one thing that could help me get behind his cause. Humility. Ulfric, to me, is an arrogant tool. He thinks way to highly of himself and that, alone, disgusts me. I can not get behind this cause with him as a leader.

D) i respect Skyrim's wishes to become independent, but it's timing is very off-putting. The Empire is at war, and while i understand the concern of not wanting an empire you don't agree with, especially after the banning of the worship of Talos, meddling in your nations business, seceding now only cripples the empire further thus aiding the Aldmeri Dominion in their end goal of conquering the land of Tamriel.



So, thats my two cents.

[OblivionDuruza]

Nobody is disputing that the Nords are a warrior race, I agree with you on that assertion, however I also put it to you that the Nords are not just a warrior race, they are more than that, more cultured for one thing.

I also fail to see whether the conditions of a duel are spoken or unspoken changes the fact Ulfric stepped outside those bounds by using Thu'um to slay Torygg. I agree, the use of The Voice is not dishnourable, it was the way in which Ulfric used it within the circumstance, which I believe is why people are questioning him. Additionally, and this is directed at something House of Wolf said earlier, Torygg actually respected Ulfric, as does Elisif, and their calling his honour into question is hardly driven by hate, as demonstrated by Elisif's swearing loyalty to Ulfric if Solitude falls, rather than being replaced as the other Jarls that sided with the Empire are.

[b3rgx]

Him using the Thu'um alone doesn't make him dishonorable, and i wouldn't have a problem with him using the shout if it was on "equal ground" but it was not. Torygg can't shout, which gave Ulfric an unfair advantage, that if he didn't have, would have changed the outcome. Either Torygg would be alive or Ulfric's cause would've seemed more just. That and his betrayal of the Greybeards teachings and his use of a sacred nordic custom just to prove who's "top dog" makes Ulfric dishonorable. If not dishonorable, then just a bad man.

[Mefris Elmek]

The nords are a warrior race, founded on tradition and principle. The issue of what is/isn't acceptable in a duel is negated in my opinion. It is tradition, so it should be unspoken. A true nord should just know. There shouldn't have to be a text that everyone goes by.

Although i don't think the using of the dragon shout is dishonorable, i do think the use of such a sacred part of nordic culture just to prove a point, and while doing so is forsaking the teachings the Greybeards bestowed upon Ulfric, IS dishonorable.

Now about the stormcloaks:

A) i'd probably rebel against the empire if the worship of my God was banned, however i accept that their hand was forced by the Aldmeri Dominion. If the empire had not outlawed Talos worship, they'd have been decimated.

Nothing was forced by no one.The Empire did that to itself

B) The issue of racism is a secondary issue, not openly embraced by the Stormcloak rebellion as a movement, though embraced by numerous particpants of that movement. The empire's stance of racism isn't at all racism. The empire's choice to go after the Aldmeri after dealing with the stormcloaks isn't a racist stance, they are at war with the Aldmeri. That's patriotism.

So let me get this straight,everyone(races,factions etc.) hates the Thalmor to death but because you met a General and a Legatus you know "the Empires stand"on this??Patriotism??So the Stormcloaks are all racist because some of them are racists and Empire isn't racist because they "are" at war??What a load of horse s''''t.......

Although members of the stormcloaks generally despise members of other races and openly harass these races. Even going as far as wishing skyrim to be a pure nord nation. That's racism.

Ohh yes.I agree.It must be a common practice for them sanctioned by Ulfric himself.
Oh and regarding Skyrim for the Nords did it cross your mind that maybe they were referring to the administration of the providence?

C) Ulfric lacks the one thing that could help me get behind his cause. Humility. Ulfric, to me, is an arrogant tool. He thinks way to highly of himself and that, alone, disgusts me. I can not get behind this cause with him as a leader.

You have confirmed my beliefs.No one really listens to the man.You just judge based on hear-say.

D) i respect Skyrim's wishes to become independent, but it's timing is very off-putting. The Empire is at war, and while i understand the concern of not wanting an empire you don't agree with, especially after the banning of the worship of Talos, meddling in your nations business, seceding now only cripples the empire further thus aiding the Aldmeri Dominion in their end goal of conquering the land of Tamriel.

There is no "bad time" to earn your freedom and to fight for your rights.Skyrim will survive without the Empire.The Empire will not.

So, thats my two cents.

Here's a refund.

As I said, I beg to differ, as it's Nords and not just Imperials saying it, and more to the point, by the comments of High King Torygg in Sovngarde, who is proven to be a True Nord by the fact he resides there

I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?

You can't expect him to say "He beat me fairly"even if he is in Sovngarde.He was young .Young people don't usually admit these kind of things easily.
Not to mention that there are a lot of people that suggest otherwise.

This isn't me speaking pro-Imperial by any stretch, this thread stands independent from anything outside the Stormcloaks and the Nords, or at least, that was my intention.

That may be your intention but you are still slightly imperial-oriented .
For me it seems this thread has become another SC hate thread(and I'm not saying it's your fault,not by a long shot) instead of being a neutral and objective analysis of the SC.

[...]as demonstrated by Elisif's swearing loyalty to Ulfric if Solitude falls, rather than being replaced as the other Jarls that sided with the Empire are.

Thats not really a good example because :If the Dragonborn sides with the Stormcloaks during the Civil War, Elisif agrees to swear fealty to Ulfric Stormcloak with little resistance, but whether she does so out of personal interest or militaristic coercion is not entirely clear.