The Stormcloaks

[OblivionDuruza]

I originally was rather attracted to the Stormcloak movement, I must say, but a number of issues put me off. First out though, this is not a Stormcloak 'hate' thread, I just want to discuss the elements of the Stormcloaks that I like or see 'potential' in, and which elements I would have liked to see changed.

Firstly, if I could feel that the Stormcloaks actually represented the old Nordic ways, as the Old Holds are supposed to have throughout the Septim Dynasty's rule. I've discussed what I see as 'True Nordic Culture' before, although I'm not sure if I articulated my views to the best of my ability there, with absolute clarity, but even so, you should be able to get the gist. If the Stormcloaks fought for Ysmir for starters, they'd be much more inclined to have my support for what they are, as opposed to being, in my view, a hypocritically movement that does not even acknowledge the connection to the Empire that is starting them in the face as Talos (aside from the fact that the Nords built the Empire, and are the Empire).

Secondly, if Ulfric had slain Torygg without using The Voice to do so. If he'd demonstrated his mastery of Thu'um prior to the challenge, or afterwards, without actually directing it at Torygg, and if he'd slain Torygg with his blade and his own prowess with the blade alone. I feel this would have demonstrated a great deal more bravery and been much more honourable on his part, while still demonstrating his power, strength, and ability to rule.

And finally, if Ulfric took a stance on the issue of the Dunmer in Windhelm, even if that stance were to throw the Dunmer out and retake Ysgramor's city for the Nords. I feel that by ignoring the issue and letting non-Nords die by the hands of bandits within his own Hold, he fails as a Jarl. As Balgruuf puts it, a true Jarl "[does] not stand idly by while [others] slaughter [their] people." Ulfric needs to lead through action, and the opportunity stands right before him to define himself through action.

[Musicman247]

I agree on all counts.

Ulfric very well could have become king by simply claiming to be the Dragonborn and demonstrating his Thu'um. That alone may have been enough to convince Torygg, or at least the people, that he was worth following.

[Avron the S'wit]

Ah, yes, you've just discovered something important to intelligent life: the merits and injustices of your cause depend where on the line you stand. If you look into anything enough, you'll find plenty to put you off...and, likewise, things you can understand and get behind. What's the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist, after all?

I personally was never a big fan of Ulfric, but I really did like Jarl Balgruuf. There was something about his manner that strikes me as pretty proper, as opposed to the rebellious nature of Ulfric - your quote above is pretty clear on that. But that's me as the player. Whether or not I sympathize with the Stormcloaks or the Imperials always depends on the character I'm playing...and, those of them that think about it like you do, Duruza, end up being lone wolves and letting the conflict happen around them.

Good points, though, and a nice thread all around.

[DarkEastwood]

I'd have si much more respect for the Jarl's if they had just sat up straight lol

But anyway Balgruuf reminds me of Theoden from LOTR. Who is awesome.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Duruza, you're spot-on. In my opinion, Ulfric isn't necessarily a bad leader, in fact he has the potential to be a very good one. But he needs to get his priorities sorted out first.

[Will Zurmacht]

Guess I'll present the contrary argument to prevent this from becoming an unproductive nod fest.

Tradition

The Empire dishonored Skyrim's most sacred religious symbol by renouncing Talos. Not only did Mede spit upon and outlaw the head of the Nordic pantheon, he did so while kowtowing to the some of the Nords' most hated and ancient foes. For those, like the SCs, who take Talos to be a key foundation and living inspiration for the Nordic way of life, this renunciation and insult is grounds for political independence, as a way of preserving Nordic culture.

Thu'um

Ulfric's use of the Voice in the process of killing Torygg is justified for a very special reason. Ulfric has positioned himself as the savior of Nordic culture, and as the champion of Talos. Like Talos, Ulfric is willing and able to use Thu'um to achieve political ends. By using Kyne's gift specifically to topple the Empire's puppet king, Ulfric simultaneously reinforced the perception that he is the second coming of Talos and that Nords, using true Nordic arts, have the strength to push off the rotting Imperial behemoth smothering their land.

Dunmer

Whether or not Dark Elves are treated as second-class citizens in Windhelm is not related to the SC cause, which is overwhelmingly religious and revolutionary. Secondly, Ulfric is absorbed in the naturally much more pressing concerns of the Civil War, and cannot devote much time or resources to catering to the needs of one special interest group (even if he wanted to). Thirdly, Skyrim is not Cyrodiil. Nothing could be more natural in a backward place like Skyrim than one or more groups being marginalized for differences of race, culture, or religion. For example, due to cultural stereotypes Khajiit are barred from all Skyrim cities. Even St. Balgruuf won't let them in.

In sum, Ulfric's actions position him as the savior of Nordic culture, after the manner of the greatest Nordic hero, and in addition to this he holds typical Nordic views regarding outsiders, etc. Ulfric is the paragon of everything it means to be a Nord.

[roleplayer242426]

I respectfully disagree about Jarl Bulgruuf. Sure, he has great pride for Whiterun, and clearly cares a great deal about the hold's citizens. The problem is, his loyalty to his hold is greater than that of the Empire or Stormcloaks, and if every Jarl held this type of beleif, the Holds would almost definantly rebel against eachother over some conflict eventually. As for Ulfric Stormcloak,...I do agree about the Dunmer, as they do not deserve the prejudice they are given, and nobody likes a bigot. As for the power of the Voice,..It would be completely unfair for him to preform his ablities prior. Why? If it was Ulfric that died, nobody would make a big deal about it. On top of this, it wasn't like he had an inborn ability to shout. He learned it, and practiced it, just like mages learn and study magic. You don't force magic users to show their capability before a duel. You can't be biased against one way of combat. He learned the skill, he has a right to use it.

[Jabbrwock]

I respectfully disagree about Jarl Bulgruuf. Sure, he has great pride for Whiterun, and clearly cares a great deal about the hold's citizens. The problem is, his loyalty to his hold is greater than that of the Empire or Stormcloaks, and if every Jarl held this type of beleif, the Holds would almost definantly rebel against eachother over some conflict eventually. As for Ulfric Stormcloak,...I do agree about the Dunmer, as they do not deserve the prejudice they are given, and nobody likes a bigot. As for the power of the Voice,..It would be completely unfair for him to preform his ablities prior. Why? If it was Ulfric that died, nobody would make a big deal about it. On top of this, it wasn't like he had an inborn ability to shout. He learned it, and practiced it, just like mages learn and study magic. You don't force magic users to show their capability before a duel. You can't be biased against one way of combat. He learned the skill, he has a right to use it.

Well, if he'd fried Torygg with a fireball or summoned a Storm Atronach to kill him, I'm pretty sure there would be no question that Ulfric had, in fact, cheated in the duel and deserved to be executed for murder. Duels have rules, including restrictions on allowable weapons. Not all combat techniques are going to be allowed, and which are acceptable is a question answered by the culture sanctioning the duel.

Whether the Thu'um is allowable in a duel is actually a delicate question. It is the traditional power of ancient Nord heroes, so on the one hand it makes sense that it would be allowed in a duel under Nord traditions. On the other hand, for several centuries now (if not longer, I don't remember when they were founded) the Graybeards have been spreading the philosophy that the Thu'um is not intended to be used for such purposes, but rather to commune with Kynareth. Only a Dragonborn is allowed more leeway in this tradition, and Ulfric is not a Dragonborn. The question of which prevails - the ancient Nord traditions that allow the use of the Thu'um, or the reformist philosophy of Jurgen Windcaller which forbids it - is not even addressed in the game. That's probably part of the reason why neither side had a really decisive advantage in the civil war at the start of the game - there were good arguments on both sides.

[roleplayer242426]

I see your point, perhaps that was a rather poor example. But it could also be argued he didn't do it for a self-rightous purpose, and did it to free Skyrim. It was for the Stormcloak cause, after all. The fact that the High King accepted the duel makes it inappropriate to call it murder in my opinion, however, and I raise the question again, would this even be up for debate if Ulfric lost the duel? Also, is there any written rulebook for these traditions that which wouldn't be a hassle to provide a link to? If it'd be a bother, don't do so. I'm a lore-lover, wouldn't mind reading this to further decide my opinion about this supposed murder.

[Evil-i]

I don't see Ulfric as honestly motivated to preserve the "old ways" of Nordic culture. He's just using that line as whitewash and camouflage for his real intention, which is nothing more than the simple power-grab that all Alphas are motivated by.

Froki, by comparison, really carries the old ways in his heart. I just don't get the same vibe from self-centered Ulfric.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I don't see Ulfric as honestly motivated to preserve the "old ways" of Nordic culture. He's just using that line as whitewash and camouflage for his real intention, which is nothing more than the simple power-grab that all Alphas are motivated by.

Froki, by comparison, really carries the old ways in his heart. I just don't get the same vibe from self-centered Ulfric.

Right. I was going to bring up Froki. It could be argued he's the most traditionalist of the living Nords in Skyrim. A true traditionalist would invoke Shor, not Talos. Just saying. Ulfric was fighting to preserve an Imperialized version of Nordic beliefs against a newer Imperial pantheon, but it's not really accurate to say he's standing for the old ways.

[Will Zurmacht]

If old ways are so old that nobody cares about them anymore, then they're effectively no longer part of the culture and don't matter.

Ulfric re-purposes, emphasizes, and/or modifies traditions to meet (what he sees as) the needs of modern Skyrim. Good on him.

[Frost Mage]

Agree 100%. That's really all I can say.

[Hissien]

I don't think ulfriic is all that great..... And the appeal is there I just dislike him.

Talos was a nord right? The biggest hero of nords? Of course he would use him to rally his cause behind, he's got the perfect martyr.

And I don't want to get started on the issue of the dunmer, and something tells me neither do any of you lol.

And on the thuum, he knows ONE shout. He would have been more likely than not able to kill torygg easily without it. Plus it is possible for all nords to learn and if Torygg was a more powerful warrior it wouldn't have likely been an issue.

[House of the Wolf]

He knows two: Unrelenting Force, Disarm

[Frost Mage]

He knows two: Unrelenting Force, Disarm

And Kyne's Peace. Helps him keep his soldiers in check.

Okay, I'll stop joking around. Ulfric is a hypocrite on so many levels that it isn't even funny. He acts as if he's helping Skyrim's people, when in reality he's going against everything that the Empire stands for, and therefore he is going against the real Nordic principles.

[OblivionDuruza]

I don't see Ulfric as honestly motivated to preserve the "old ways" of Nordic culture. He's just using that line as whitewash and camouflage for his real intention, which is nothing more than the simple power-grab that all Alphas are motivated by.

Froki, by comparison, really carries the old ways in his heart. I just don't get the same vibe from self-centered Ulfric.

Essentially this is my take on the issue to. And As Pilaf mentions, for me, a true Nord would invoke Shor and/or Ysmir, and possibly Kyne,as opposed to Talos.

As for Will, I'm not ignoring you, I'm just about to go out and don't have time to consider your points and respond.

[Radagast]

In truth I just don't like Ulfric, I don't trust him and I think he has his own agenda. He does all the natural things that an opportunistic politician would do in his position. I don't doubt his skill and intelligence. I just dislike how he uses it.

I also try to separate my feelings depending on character. My first character was a Nordic Muscle-Man and sided with the stormcloacks.

My current character is a dark-elf Mage and he'll be making sure Ulfric burns

Radagast

[ThePainkiller88]

There are arguments for and against both sides, that's why I love the civil war questline. Like a few above me have mentioned, it usually depends on the character I'm playing. Having said that, even though he's a racist and still technically loyal to an Imperial figure(Talos), I'd still pick Ulfric over Tullius and the Empire. Imo the rebels have one thing right: The Empire is not what it used to be. Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and Elsewheyr have all seceded. Even IF the Empire got Skyrim back on it's side, it would still be a shadow of it's former self, and there is no indication that it can ever bounce back fully from the setbacks that were the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War. With the Septim bloodline gone, the Empire needs to be forgotten.

[OblivionDuruza]

Very true, at least as far as there are arguments for and against both sides. However, with this topic, I'm not so much after which is better, or more justified, or more 'right', I'm more looking at the Stormcloaks alone, regardless of whether one supports them or not. I mean, I doubt all their supporters find them to be a perfect Faction, so what are their key flaws, and are these flaws really flaws, is more what I'm posing.

[ThePainkiller88]

Well their racism for one. Actually, funny I just thought of this: Has anyone ever noticed that after you complete the civil war in the Empire's favor, one of the remarks you may get from Imperial guards is something along the lines of them being glad to control the east of Skyrim, in case they want to invade Morrowind? Yet the anti-mer Stormcloaks have no such remarks when they control everything. O.o

[Unionhack]

此次组织的银行业满意度测评主要针对银行的个人业务服务，包括营业厅、网上银行、银行卡,louboutin pas cher，涉及国内业务占有率较高的15家银行,lunettes ray ban，即工行、农行、中行、建行、交行、招行、中信、光大、华夏、浦发、广发、平安、兴业、民生、邮储,louboutin。
在服务环节,dolce gabbana pas cher，营业厅服务“等候时间”得分最低，网点少、等候时间长、服务差、人多排队、办理业务慢是客户提及率较高的问题。同时，网银操作繁琐是客户对此项业务提及率较高的问题。
其中,air jordan，四大行、交行和邮储的“跨行转账、提款手续费”得分，建行和工行的“年费、小额管理费”得分均低于67分,dolce gabbana。
本报讯 (记者廖爱玲 实习生葛南南) 公众对银行的服务质量满意度如何？昨天,air jordan chaussure，中国质量协会、全国用户委员会对外公布了对银行业满意度测评结果，银行收费不合理、泄露和滥用客户个人信息是最令人不满意的两大问题,burberry，邮储、工行、建行、兴业、农行5家银行的得分低于行业得分。
5家银行低于行业得分
结果显示，用户基于实际感受对银行业给出的满意度总体得分为77.4分，三分之二的银行得分高于这一行业得分，但邮储、工行、建行、兴业、农行这5家银行的得分低于行业得分，其中农行分数更是垫底。
“等候时间”得分最低
中国质量协会指出，调查发现，银行收费不合理是客户不满意的主要问题，客户尤其对“跨行转账、提款手续费”以及“年费、小额管理费”评价较低。
而银行泄露和滥用个人信息则是不满意的另一大问题，包括个人信息被泄露，银行利用掌握的客户信息打电话推销保险和理财产品。
同时，客户对银行服务的实际感受普遍低于预期。除邮政储蓄银行外，客户对其他各银行服务的感知质量全部低于预期,burberry soldes，交行和招行的感知质量与预期的差距超过5分,burberry pas cher。
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[Pilaf The Defiler]

Talos was a nord right?

One or two of him was, sure. The rest, not so much.

[House of the Wolf]

Has anyone else experienced Ria, of the Companions, attacking them if they take Whiterun for the Stormcloaks?

[Redguard_Master]

Well their racism for one. Actually, funny I just thought of this: Has anyone ever noticed that after you complete the civil war in the Empire's favor, one of the remarks you may get from Imperial guards is something along the lines of them being glad to control the east of Skyrim, in case they want to invade Morrowind? Yet the anti-mer Stormcloaks have no such remarks when they control everything. O.o

In his victory speech he pretty much says get ready for war with the aldmeri. Threatening to bring the pain to different elves but still.