Do the starting values of skills for races annoy you?

[OblivionDuruza]

That value was reduced, and the Altmer lost their weakness to balance that reduction. The Bretons lost their own bonus Magicka to balance them, after their slight OPness in Oblivion. The Altmer also did not always posses a weakness to Magic (they did not posses it in Arena, and only possessed elemental weaknesses in Daggerfall and Oblivion, iirc).

I'm more concerned about the major identity changes that the Redguards underwent, and to a lesser extent the change in the Dunmer, although to a degree I can rationalise it by the Red Year, although that still does't make me like it.

[Dark Spark]

I don't like the starting values of skills for different races. It might just be in comparison to Oblivion, however. But I think they're nonsensical. ...

Sorry. But as an obsessive-compulsive, 'starting values' means absolutely nothing to me.

Many years ago when Forza Motorsports 2 came out on the Xbox 360, I tuned muscle cars when the game launched. Not because I had discovered their insane HP-to-weight potential or the other cheesy things the multi-player nuts exploited later on. Rather, I did it because I was compelled to defy the conventional logic of that world. The one that said "...any chassis made before 1972 cannot handle the horsepower of a 21st Century vehicle!". I simply wanted to prove the old cars could hold their own when brought against the newer ones.

Unfortunately, I was more than proven right— it was taken to be as a tantamount to cheating.

But for me, telling me that "it won't work" is simply an invitation for me to make it work.

[ArgonianDunmer]

I too was a little annoyed by the unexplained changes. Specifically, the issue of Lore and racial identity forged over the previous instalments of the game; in regards to the Redguards suddenly becoming proficient Mages, the Dunmer loosing their Blade and Marksman bonuses and going from well-rounded offensive types to Stealthy Mages, and the Imperials loss of their amazing Personality. There are a few other minor things, like the Altmer having a greater Illusion boost than Destruction, and the fact that Nords and Bretons have Speech bonuses while Imperials do not. Thankfully, our very own Trelares has created a mod that 'rectifies' the matter.

That mod looks worth checking out! Thanks

[bushwhacker2k]

I don't like the starting values of skills for different races. It might just be in comparison to Oblivion, however. But I think they're nonsensical. ...

Sorry. But as an obsessive-compulsive, 'starting values' means absolutely nothing to me.

Many years ago when Forza Motorsports 2 came out on the Xbox 360, I tuned muscle cars when the game launched. Not because I had discovered their insane HP-to-weight potential or the other cheesy things the multi-player nuts exploited later on. Rather, I did it because I was compelled to defy the conventional logic of that world. The one that said "...any chassis made before 1972 cannot handle the horsepower of a 21st Century vehicle!". I simply wanted to prove the old cars could hold their own when brought against the newer ones.

Unfortunately, I was more than proven right— it was taken to be as a tantamount to cheating.

But for me, telling me that "it won't work" is simply an invitation for me to make it work.

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. The car bit was interesting though.

If memory serves only Altmer, Bretons(the two big magic races), Dunmer, Argonians and possibly Khajiit have had bonuses to magic skills, so it is kind of odd that other races would suddenly get bonuses.

I recall reading something a whiiiile back about Redguards suddenly conjuring weapons where there were none, which was then linked to conjuration and bound weapons... but beyond that I don't think anything else is really explained.

[ArgonianDunmer]

Do you remember where you read that? I've never heard anything like it. Maybe linked to Yokudan society pre-destruction?

[Dark Spark]

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. The car bit was interesting though...

Basically, I think 'starting values' mean nothing. Because if somebody sets up a game that says "High Elves must be mages and Nords must be warriors", and sets their stats like that— I have this desire to make a High Elf warrior and Nord mage, just to prove how useless those notions truly are.

[ArgonianDunmer]

But it's not about 'has to' it's about an identity as Duruza puts it. For instance, when I say African, most people would have a specific image, which would include dark skin, but that doesn't mean that all Africans have dark skin.

[bushwhacker2k]

Do you remember where you read that? I've never heard anything like it. Maybe linked to Yokudan society pre-destruction?

No : / I read this years ago, it's possible that it was something from Elder Scrolls: Redguard, but I've never actually played the game myself. Don't even know what Yokudan is.

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. The car bit was interesting though...

Basically, I think 'starting values' mean nothing. Because if somebody sets up a game that says "High Elves must be mages and Nords must be warriors", and sets their stats like that— I have this desire to make a High Elf warrior and Nord mage, just to prove how useless those notions truly are.

Well I don't disagree but it's not like they're totally pointless, it affects how easily you move into certain professions. Not referring to the skills but the unique race abilities are actually quite unique, the orc and khajiit abilities are awesome and can really make a difference in what kind of character you decide to set up.

I do agree though that it's definitely not forcing you to play a certain way, I have respect for Nords who rise above their prejudices of magic and embrace the unlimited power

[Jaime Gemstone]

They have made things easier for new players that don't care much for truly developing a character. Rather they mainstreamed things significantly.

I do however hate the new look for dark elves, namely with that funky star treck brow thing.

How? Some newbie shows up who can't tell a warrior from a mage so wants to be both, he's still going to pick wood elf because he'll be thinking he'll look swell in heavy armor throwing fire balls around.

If they wanted to make it easier for new players to start the game, they could have just written more in the race descriptions explaining that this race is best as a warrior mage combo, or this one is best a thief, or so on. Shuffling about the stats does not make things easier. The natural abilities of races are simply much less potent now, and it's annoying.

In Oblivion, if you wanted to be a truly effective pure mage, you HAD to chose breton or high elf. I tried being an imperial pure mage once, and when I realized my max magicka at 200 was not even enough to cast some spells, I deleted the character. But that problem has gone now. A nord makes just a fine mage as a breton does after you've gotten to about level 15 or so and sorted out your stats, and for what? We've gained nothing and lost heaps.

[Jaime Gemstone]

But it's not about 'has to' it's about an identity as Duruza puts it. For instance, when I say African, most people would have a specific image, which would include dark skin, but that doesn't mean that all Africans have dark skin.

That's true. It's about role playing.

There is not much realism in a wood elf being effective with heavy armor and two handed hammers. You can do it, but where is the role playing value? I mean, how heavy is a male wood elf of medium build? 65 kilo? Heavy build, 75 kilo? Whilst a male nord or orc pushes well past 115 kilo when you pump the muscles right up. And their damage output is the same. No brainer...

[unokitsune]

They have made things easier for new players that don't care much for truly developing a character. Rather they mainstreamed things significantly.

I do however hate the new look for dark elves, namely with that funky star treck brow thing.

How? Some newbie shows up who can't tell a warrior from a mage so wants to be both, he's still going to pick wood elf because he'll be thinking he'll look swell in heavy armor throwing fire balls around.

If they wanted to make it easier for new players to start the game, they could have just written more in the race descriptions explaining that this race is best as a warrior mage combo, or this one is best a thief, or so on. Shuffling about the stats does not make things easier. The natural abilities of races are simply much less potent now, and it's annoying.

In Oblivion, if you wanted to be a truly effective pure mage, you HAD to chose breton or high elf. I tried being an imperial pure mage once, and when I realized my max magicka at 200 was not even enough to cast some spells, I deleted the character. But that problem has gone now. A nord makes just a fine mage as a breton does after you've gotten to about level 15 or so and sorted out your stats, and for what? We've gained nothing and lost heaps.

In oblivion you could glitch yourself to have more magika but it required you to have a high level in restoration ((mine was 100)) and either an apprentice in the mage's guild and/or the wizard's tower expansion. To get the most of it you had to be at least lvl 17 to get the transcendant sigil stones with the fortify intelligence enchantment and dupe them while having Lots of shirts, skirts, rings, necklaces, hoods, and shoes. Otherwise you are stuck. I had a high lvl argonian mage bron under the sign of the tower and another under the sign of the shadow but I was able to cast many powerful spells by utilizing this glitch.

In skyrim we don't have easy duping ((apparel yes with the mannequin but sometimes you can loose your stuff)) but we do have double enchantments and we can't glitch it's permanent afffects.

In skyrim the character creation racial description isn't easy to read because the letters are too bright against a bright background but by lvl 81 any race can get at least 800 majicka. High elves just have this wonderful ability to regenerate magicka at early levels and they are the fastest race due to height. It's much more easier for anyone to be a mage or a mix no matter what race they pick, altmer just have it easy at earlier levels for mage while argonians can regenerate health.

As for the wood elf in heavy armor? http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Cingor tell that to him.

[ArgonianDunmer]

As I said before, every rule has an exception, and just because one Bosmer is proficient in Heavy Armour, does not mean all are. There are many Bosmer proficient with a bow though, therefore, the race has a racial bonus to Archery.

[Wolfie]

I'd say redgaurds may of leanred magic to fight the thalmor, as I understand it they only dont trust SOME types of magic

Dark elfs could becuse they have lost their traditions, they are now hiders not fighters, they are nomads, who hide instead of fight with blade and over generations the feet was lost

High elfs was cause they where OP and Arena did not even have it

did I miss any?

[ArgonianDunmer]

That hardly explains it, although I'm not sure what you mean by the Arena comment?

The thing is though, that Redguards remark saying that they ditrust Magic, not certain types of Magic:

Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds.

If you use magic, you're weak or wicked.

We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell.

But you are right in terms of the fact they hate especially necromancy, summoning, and illusion.

Also, in answer to your question, a lot of people also don't feel what happened to the Imperials has been justified yet.

[Wolfie]

That hardly explains it, although I'm not sure what you mean by the Arena comment?

High elfs did not have the starting stats they had in OB or morrowind back then.

The thing is though, that Redguards remark saying that they ditrust Magic, not certain types of Magic:

Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds.

If you use magic, you're weak or wicked.

We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell.

But you are right in terms of the fact they hate especially necromancy, summoning, and illusion.

True, how ever I think its sopouse to show pepole evloving, not done very well I admit, but I still think their fight with thalmor have something to do with it.

Also, in answer to your question, a lot of people also don't feel what happened to the Imperials has been justified yet.

I think thats more cause of how the empire is falling, 6 ( i belive) of their provinces have left them, they no longer have the advantge of peavful relations with ANY of them.

[ArgonianDunmer]

Well, Alinor, Valenwood, Black Marsh and Hammerfall makes 4, Skyrim doesn't count, but it's maybe a half. Cyrodiil, High Rock and Morrowind are still part of the Empire though, as is Skyrim, for the time being. But the Imperials natural silver-tongues has not been because of the Empire, IMO, so much as their natural mannerisms. I guess it's a somewhat valid response you make, but it doesn't satisfy me entirely when half or more of Skyrim still supports the Empire, and as such the East Empire Company still operates in Skyrim.

[enyamerT]

Well, Alinor, Valenwood, Black Marsh and Hammerfall makes 4, Skyrim doesn't count, but it's maybe a half. Cyrodiil, High Rock and Morrowind are still part of the Empire though, as is Skyrim, for the time being. But the Imperials natural silver-tongues has not been because of the Empire, IMO, so much as their natural mannerisms. I guess it's a somewhat valid response you make, but it doesn't satisfy me entirely when half or more of Skyrim still supports the Empire, and as such the East Empire Company still operates in Skyrim.

Don't forget the former Elsweyr - now reverted to Anequina and Pellitine.

[CreeperX]

Some of them do. I miss the archery and blade skills of the Dunmer. They were more jack-of-all-trades in Oblivion while now they are "sneaky mages".
However, it's fairly easy to take your character to whatever path you choose. The starting values don't matter that much and you're not forced to pick a class or anything. My dunmer actually started as a sneaky mage but eventually ended up dumping the spells and focused on archery instead. And it works.
I do understand the annoyance especially when it goes against the lore. Like Redguards suddenly using magic while they have been portrayed as a race which values natural warrior skills and thinks magic is nonsense.
Personally I don't mind that much since the starting values aren't really a hindurance. I actually like some of the changes. Like the fact that they removed the altmer's weaknesses to magic and didn't make them as frail. In Oblivion I pretty much never played as an altmer and rather went with a Breton. Now, however, I have greatly enjoyed playing as an altmer.

[Witchery]

I don't like the starting values of skills for different races. It might just be in comparison to Oblivion, however. But I think they're nonsensical.

In Oblivion, the Imperial had a high personality, starting with good speech and mercantile skills. That's just gone. Why? Why don't they start with higher speech? They're supposed to be the knight class - heavy armor, sword and shield, white magic and charismatic. I just don't get why they changed it.

The dark elf annoys me too. In Oblivion they were good for a blade, bow and destruction combo. In Skyrim they have no one handed or archery skill, however. They're basically just a sneaky mage for starters, which is lame.

The redguard is supposed to be a talented warrior. It even says so in the description on Skyrim. But the only talent they have is some one handed, block and archery. There is no armor bonus and no two handed bonus. They have restoration and alteration instead, so are actually intended as a half warrior mage class.

The breton has no magicka bonus. I find this really annoying. It makes the race dull. Because when you consider all of the above - if you want to play a dark elf who is traditionally skilled in blade, destruction and bow, then you must ignore the starting values. So the only thing that makes a breton a better mage than a orc is the starting values, which for most races are all over the place anyway.

Anyone else get annoyed by these?

They're all easily disregarded, really. I personally would have changed things up a bit, but I think it's fine. (Perhaps a +30 magicka bonus for Bretons, +20 health for Orcs, +10 Stamina for Redguards, etc. That would have made things a little more geared to a specific class.)

Also, a Knight that uses magic would be a Spellsword. (@ "white magic)

As for the discussion on the first page, each race has a collection of abilities and classes that is deemed common in their society. Just because some Redguards are mages doesn't mean it's a factor in their society at large.

[DarkEastwood]

Ehh not really. The only complaint is I wish Imperials got the Speech bonus.

[Dark Spark]

...In Oblivion, if you wanted to be a truly effective pure mage, you HAD to chose breton or high elf. I tried being an imperial pure mage once, and when I realized my max magicka at 200 was not even enough to cast some spells, I deleted the character. ...

In Oblivion my Imperial sorceress got along fine with her natural 300 Magicka. Her Master-level spells in Destruction and Illusion were tuned for those 300 points. Adding enchanted apparel just lengthened the fireworks show.

How? Apprentice Birthsign.

Now, that may not seem very wise. But, when it comes to characters, I fear you've mistaken the word 'effective' for the word 'fun'. Imagining the horror on some High Elf's face as it's being frozen solid from a Master-level Frost spell cast by a "travelling merchant"— that's worth a smile.

[toast123]

im not to bothered because my fav race is the orc and the berserk power is super powerful now