The S-Word discussion

[Morwen]

The point about some members being minors – isn’t it their parents’ responsibility to filter what they look at online? Aren't the TES games aimed at over-16s?

Having said that, although I’m very anti-censorship, I’m glad that users here are encouraged to write in coherent language rather than text speak. I h8 txt spk.

[The Tourist]

So..... how did we get on this topic?
Forget it. It is one of the reasons I don't visit the "general" topic anymore.

Yeah, it's also one of the reasons I don't visit "this entire forum" anymore.

I don't understand why there's any reason to avoid the General forum. Personally, I'd find this place far more interesting than the TES specific boards. Whilst people have differing reasons for coming on here - from simple help-topics, to general mumbling about the game series - I still find it inherantly more interesting to discourse about, y'know, RL-stuff as opposed to whether Cyrodiilic brandy would be nicer than Greef... (it isn't btw )

The only reason not to come here is the tumble-weeds rolling across the dusty plains of the semi-abandoned General Forum-Town. I used to love forums back in the day, but now I'm back on one after a 4-year internet hiatus, I still intend to find one in which I can really get stuck in to. Y'know, politics, culture, societal advancement...

Fair enough, most use this site soley for TES - which is obviously understandable. But, rather than just talking to a work colleague (or a college/school mate or whatever) about 'topical' stuff, I find the internet an interesting place to have such discussion.

Why? Forums are interesting medias to debate and mull stuff over, because (more often than not) people have to be formal in their presentation of dialogue. Face to face, people can lose clarity in their expression, and written forums require a little bit more hesitancy and thought. You can reply to a post two days after, having something 'click' in your view upon the specific subject.

Plus, unless you simply sit in the middle of London in an outside cafe - talking to every stranger you can - there are few other places where discouse between so many cultures/backgrounds is instantly possible. I don't see internet culture as an 'alternative' to anything, it is simply a potentially very interesting compliment/extension to how human beings communicate.

[Ayoub]

By this entire forum I meant this ENTIRE SITE.

Okay, I'm 13. If I see the word "sex" on a random forum (referring to the activity, not "gender") what's going to happen? Half of my friends have done it along with smoking, drugs, etc...

By seeing that word, am I suddenly going to start watching p0rn? Am I going to walk around the street pleasuring myself on peoples' cars? Am I going to load this site with p0rn, ultimately getting it deleted by the web-host? Am I going to get this site into trouble?

What else made me stop posting here was the "favorite color" threads (Ebay or Amazon?; Movie, Or Real-life Battleground; the other four threads revolving around the same music discussion; Funniest movie ever seen; Favourite quotes from games; 1 Dinner Party Table - 5 Living Guests of Your Choice..; Hobbies?; How often...). Another reason was the abundance of "I'm new here" threads. Do you think anyone gives a f***? Sure, someone will come along and say "Hail new member" or something, but really, no one gives a f*** if you're new here; all 14,000 members here were knew here too and nothing makes you special. "I'm new here and I'm gonna like post here everyday! yay!" and then what do you know? They're gone after three posts.

Lately the whole balance of the forum changed so uggh over for me. Sorry =(

And notice how I didn't make a "I'm leaving so cry for me" thread either.

[okiphia]

What else made me stop posting here was the "favorite color" threads (Ebay or Amazon?; Movie, Or Real-life Battleground; the other four threads revolving around the same music discussion; Funniest movie ever seen; Favourite quotes from games; 1 Dinner Party Table - 5 Living Guests of Your Choice..; Hobbies?; How often...). Another reason was the abundance of "I'm new here" threads. Do you think anyone gives a *. Sure, someone will come along and say "Hail new member" or something, but really, no one gives a * if you're new here; all 14,000 members here were knew here too and nothing makes you special. "I'm new here and I'm gonna like post here everyday! yay!" and then what do you know? They're gone after three posts.

Seems to me, you just don't like forums for discussion beyond very specific things.. I care when new people show up, believe it or not. I do. I like new people, because maybe I can actually help them. I also like the 'random crap' threads because it is an entertaining diversion from life...

I love this forum lol.. the random crap just helps its entertainment value...

[Ayoub]

I love this forum lol.. the random crap just helps its entertainment value...

I did once too...so much during winter break that, having nothing to do, I was posting in excess of 50 posts a day...that got really old really fast and then the baby-booming (new members) started and here we are.

Now it's just like...who cares?

Now I'd rather spend a few hours on Facebook/MSN rather than compare eBay to Amazon on an internet forum...not to say the people here aren't a nice crowd. Heck, some of the best people I've ever talked to on a forum were here. It's just the discussion... =S

[r]

the other four threads revolving around the same music discussion;

There haven't been two threads anywhere near each other revolving around 'the same music discussion'. A lot of people at this forum are big music fans. Get over it.

[Ayoub]

Are you honestly looking for a flame-war? I just voiced my opinion.

[The Tourist]

Ayoub; I listen to a lot of talk-radio, and a common thing over the years is people emailing or even calling in with "all your subjects are rubbish, why are you talkikng about this?". Answer? Put something forward yourself. It's like complaining about the government, but not voting.

Maybe you're just not old enough (I kinda view my twelfth, fairly momentus year on this planet as my first) to have a body of deeply influential people on your life yet, but a topic like my pub-qestion 5People/One Evening can generally be very interesting, if people want it to be. It didn't take, so move on. Whilst I don't have a thing against superficial threads, there simpy isn't enough people here who are inclined to discuss anything else.

It's probably simply demographics; a young user base, and it's a site about a videogame. What would you rather see discussed? (that's a genuine question, btw)

[ragged-gothic]

I find it interesting that you would lose interest in these forums entirely because you find a few threads to be pointless or, at least, uninteresting to you. Why not simply skip over those threads and participate in the parts of the forum that do interest you. There are two threads in the General section that are dedicated to other non-TES games (one for Kingdom of Loathing and one for Runescape). Since I’m not playing those games, I just skip over those threads. Doing so doesn’t affect my interest in other parts of the section, though. Hopefully you can feel interested and welcome in at least some parts of these forums, so we don’t lose your contributions.

[Daedra Prince]

Hey Ayoub, weren't half the pointless threads and posts yours?

And on the subject of off topic stuff, that's why I still come around here, I've played out Oblivion for now and probably won't play it again regularly until I'm finished with GTA4 and MGS4 so I'm not about to be saying "help with this" or "I found this awesome new thing". I enjoy discussing things with the people here that aren't TES related, most of the people here are far more interesting to discuss things with then any other forum I've found.

[nicholasenj]

Do you think anyone gives a f***? Sure, someone will come along and say "Hail new member" or something, but really, no one gives a f*** if you're new here; all 14,000 members here were knew here too and nothing makes you special. "I'm new here and I'm gonna like post here everyday! yay!"

Are you honestly looking for a flame-war? I just voiced my opinion.

define irony.

tis better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

seriously though, the crap threads that you are complaining about are the reason I'm on this site to type ths message.

[r]

Wow, Ayoub got TORCHED in those last two posts! I agree though. If you don't like the threads at this forum, start some that you do like.

[Codex]

Let's stick to the topic, and not get all personal here.

[Ayoub]

Haha enraging random people who you're never going to meet can be most entertaining...see, you're talking to a wall; what's insulting me going to accomplish?

[ArotosMarkos]

Even then this topic has been a bit controversial.
I think everyone would be much happier if this was locked and deleted.

[The Tourist]

I disagree it should locked. This isn't a court, and no one is on trial here, and bar the odd comment, I think all points put towards Ayoub have merit - and I think it throws light on how people can successfully relate to forums, or not. There's simply no point in complaining about something, and not doing anything about it.

Why choose "these topics are boring - why is everyone boring?", when you could rather say "hey, I'll try to push things forward here with a couple of topics of my own". Nothing improves without effort - so why simply winge about it?

So I'm still interested to hear how Ayoub would respond to those comments.

[weka]

Even then this topic has been a bit controversial.
I think everyone would be much happier if this was locked and deleted.

Well if the whole thread were deleted, then that really would seem like censorship. I thought generally only spam threads are deleted (I'm not talking about cleanup within a thread here, but rather the deletion of a full thread)?

The only way the thread is staying alive is through continued contributions. (To which, I appreciate the irony, I have just added.)

[ragged-gothic]

Remember, also, that this thread was discussing censorship on the UESP forums. It is a valid and serious topic, that some, including me, feel strongly about. I still want more discussion on that, and ultimately, to have the word filter either removed, or, at most reduced to only including actual expletives.

It was not actually about Ayoub, or what he thinks constitutes an interesting thread, or what Daedra Prince and nicholasenj think of him or his posts. Th whole Ayoub business has been, though not completely without merit, a digression from the actual point. A point which I hope we can return to.

codex wrote, “Let's stick to the topic, and not get all personal here.” I agree. To ArotosMarkos: not “everyone would be much happier if this was locked and deleted”. No offense intended, but please remember, you don’t speak for everyone.

[weka]

ragged, unless I've greatly missed something in this thread, you do appear to be the only one that feels so strongly about this word, and this general overall issue?

And as apparently the longest serving active member here (and apart from one short hiatus, continually active since joining), I have to say, this is the first time that I have ever seen the "censorship" of certain words to ever come up as a real issue.

As Deandra already made the point earlier, this forum is not publicly owned. We are all here as guests.

And pls don't take this the wrong way ragged, as I do v. much enjoy your company here, and I sincerely hope you remain as an active member for a long time to come, but quite frankly, if we don't like the rules of where we are guests, we are under no obligation to stay.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't raise the issue or anything, but other than from yourself there really does not appear to be any appetite for what you are asking?? Not to mention that I'm not convinced that it would cause the mods 0% increase in work for them. I also find that it comes across, at least to me, that you're not simply raising the issue, but also actually trying to force the issue.

I for one am extremely happy with the quality of service so generously donated by our mods, not to mention how grateful I am for the amount of sheer enjoyment Daveh has provided to me over the yrs by the simple act of providing these forums.

[ragged-gothic]

ragged, unless I've greatly missed something in this thread, you do appear to be the only one that feels so strongly about this word, and this general overall issue?

And as apparently the longest serving active member here (and apart from one short hiatus, continually active since joining), I have to say, this is the first time that I have ever seen the "censorship" of certain words to ever come up as a real issue.

As Deandra already made the point earlier, this forum is not publicly owned. We are all here as guests.

And pls don't take this the wrong way ragged, as I do v. much enjoy your company here, and I sincerely hope you remain as an active member for a long time to come, but quite frankly, if we don't like the rules of where we are guests, we are under no obligation to stay.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't raise the issue or anything, but other than from yourself there really does not appear to be any appetite for what you are asking?? Not to mention that I'm not convinced that it would cause the mods 0% increase in work for them. I also find that it comes across, at least to me, that you're not simply raising the issue, but also actually trying to force the issue.

I for one am extremely happy with the quality of service so generously donated by our mods, not to mention how grateful I am for the amount of sheer enjoyment Daveh has provided to me over the yrs by the simple act of providing these forums.

To Weka,
I am trying very hard to not take this personally. I have not been here as long as you. It feels to me like you are somehow trying to “pull rank” on me because of this. I will take it on faith, however, that this is not your intent. I don’t honestly believe that I am “trying to force the issue”, because I posted one post this morning to try to direct this thread back to the topic (the same thing that codex, a moderator, attempted earlier). The thread had strayed into a long discussion about Ayoub’s interests and alienation, and was becoming inflamed with personal comments against him. I thought that it would serve the interests of the forum community, as well as my own to direct the discussion back to the original point. I also felt that I had to say something because of Arotosmarkos’ request that the thread be locked. I think that the censorship question merits further discussion, and locking the thread would stifle that.

I don’t believe that I am the only person who feels strongly about the issue of censorship, or the ridiculousness of censoring English language words that are not obscene. Yes we are guests here, but we are also part of a community, and I feel, as members of the community, any of us, even me, should have the right to express ourselves about issues in the community that we feel strongly about. I feel I have expressed mine on this issue in a reasonable and intelligent way.

As to me being the only one who feels the way I do, I’m afraid that I just plain don’t agree with you. My reading of the thread suggests that there are others who don’t like this policy and have expressed that with different degrees of strength. I very much do not want to speak for anyone else, however since you bring up Deandra; in reference to her last post, my reading of that post, with the exception of the comment about this forum not being a public space, appears to me to be in strong support of the same views that I have expressed. That is one of the main reasons why I publicly thanked her for her very post that you reference. If I’ve misread her point of view, I leave it to her to correct me on this, of course.

As to the owner of this private space, I have not seen daveh post in on this thread yet. I have no idea what his point of view is on the language censorship issue. Do you? Have you discussed this in private correspondence with him? If so, I think it would be helpful to say so. As to the mods, we have had only one post his opinion on this thread. I would like to know what all the others think before I avow that this would make more work for them, or that they disagree with my request that the language censor be removed. The one mod who has responded appears to me to have a strong pro-censorship stance; I would like to know what the others think before I assume that they are all in agreement with him.

I think that censorship is a very important issue. This is part of my personal value system, and so, yes, I am definitely in a position of advocacy. Censorship of simply the word séx, without regard to context is, imo, both foolish and puritanical. This kind censorship could swing around and point at you. You are the one, after all, who has an avatar very suggestive of BDSM. It strikes me that you haven’t considered that as a possibility, but maybe you have. If you have do you not think its a little contradictory that the board would not allow the word “sëx” published in any context, reasonable or not, but would allow an avatar of a bondage dominatrix next to each of your 2700+ posts? I do.

If no one else is interested in this thread or in my position, it will die, regardless of what I do. I feel that it is premature, however, to stifle the discussion within one day of me posting one post to try to bring the topic back to its original focus after it had wandered far and into the territory of some rather personal attacks on Ayoub. I won’t post constantly in a dead thread, but, so long as the issue is debated, I reserve the right to speak in support of a position I feel strongly about. So long as I am a member of this community, and until I am forced not to by those in authority, I think that this is not unreasonable. If this thread does not achieve any change I can query the admins directly by private post.

Finally, I want to assure you that I mean no personal attack on you either. I don’t know you, but you seem like an intelligent, thoughtful, and certainly well spoken person, who has, I freely grant, been a central member of this community. I respect you a good deal. If you wish to discuss this post, or my views as expressed further with me, and the point of discussion would not be of direct development of the issue or be of much interest or poignancy to the rest of the community, do feel free to message me privately, and I’ll respond in kind. Thank you for your attention to my response.

To all the rest of the UESPforums readership,
I apologize if this post was not of general interest, or was to parochially directed at one person. I feel, however, that since Weka’s points were directed to me, and placed in a public forum, that I should respond to her post, and express my views in that same public forum. Thank you for your indulgence.

[The Tourist]

Whilst I'd much rather address this issue in a whimsical, acerbic manner, seeing as someone has gone to the trouble of saying something of apparent deepfelt sincerity, I will attempt to rally a genuine opinion on how things stand to a relative "noooooob" like myself.

First, there is the word itself; sex. We're all aware of its various meanings, uses and contexts.
Secondly, we have the environment in which it may or may not be used; the UESP Boards.
Lastly; is the reason for its censure.

Personally speaking I support the idea of censorship. Yet I believe in 'freedom of speech'. But I believe it is not a freedom that would be without restraint. If we want a real discussion on freedom of speech and censorship, we have only to look to the Danish cartoons of the Islamic prophet - as an example of a 'freedom' that should not have been exercised, because of the potential ramifications. First, there is the Motivation of the act itself - I believe it to have been churlish, and frankly irresponsible. Why? Because of the 'reali politik' of how things work - of cause and consequence. They were published - again - as acts of what, political defiance? Or of how to transgress against another culture and tradition? Regardless of the infantile nature of the extremists reaction, it was a morally bankrupt decision, that yet again muddied the values of true and responsible 'freedom of speech'.

So, there are just examples where censorship needs to be employed; for the sake of a stable, civic society (which is NOT always the portent of autocratic oppression).

Back to the issue..
Sex; is a perfectly servicable word in numerous contexts, and in itself holds absolutely no threat to any forum of any age group.

Then comes the Environment; it is a 'family' friendly board, whose demographics - we have recently found out - are generally biased to the legal minorities side of things. Essentially, within many nations laws, we have legal minors - children - posting and reading regularly, on a board whose sole intention revolves around discussion of a videogame franchise. So, by necessity, how often would the word arise? No discussion of procreation has ever, or will probably ever arise in earnest from the subject itself - either by itself naturally not being spoken of, or by being locked and deleted on the grounds that it is generally regarded as inappropriate for legal minors. Are we really going to entertain a thread on the Importance of Sex In A Modern Monogomous Relationship, or, How Does You GF/BF Like It Best?.

Even on the ever present 'bio' threads - where virtual avatar-gender is identified - the word is not necessary, and can be substituted to no detriment to the post or subject.

Lastly, comes the Reason for censure; I've stated before - based upon the reasonable evidence presented above - that I would give the benefit of the doubt to the moderators decision, in choosing to 'bleep out' the specific word. I have no clue with regards to spamming, and certainly even less a clue as to how it could affect a forum.

Conclusion... : So, given the rarity of potential use, the minimal contexts in which it would be allowed to be acceptable - taking into rightful consideration this family-friendly, high percentage of under 16's environment - the reason for its censure suddenly (reasonably?) becomes null & void.

Whilst I abhor the attitude (of our Western cultures) that accept imagery and the language of violence, yet cowers in puritanical, supersticious fear from issues and topicality of s** - it has no consequence whatsoever on my ability to talk about whether I think Sheogorath to be a petty oik compared to my noble, all-powerful Imperial warrior-archetype..

Ragged Gothic - basically, Wot Weka Sed. In that you do appear to be in a minority regarding how much you care about this issue; in that this one small issue has absolutely no baring on the necessities of this forum. If there is a spam-reason to bar it? All the better. If there is not? It's just not important enough an issue.

I was thrown out of a forum a few years ago, after I maintained a valid challenge to the forum moderators and users regarding my 'conduct' (the people who expelled me were themselves expelled - so I was vindicated). So believe me, that I'm all for having fair reprosentation and treatment on forums - a reasonable and fair level playing-field, if you will.

[nicholasenj]

I would have to concurr with weka and the tourist.

we should start a poll

[weka]

Sorry ragged, but I'm not really up to properly going through walls of text at the mo (even though I realise that I am replying with yet another one). I'll answer a few of your points, but in doing so, I may have inadvertently missed some things that you've said....

I have no "rank" to pull. Other than mods and admins, we are all equal here, and I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise. The only reason I pointed it out was because I was saying that this is the first time that I'd seen this as an issue here. Surely you can see that if I were saying that based on a one week observation of these forums that would be rather diff to getting on for two yrs of observation? That was the only point that I was trying to make.

No personal attack on you was intended. Did you not read the parts that I said about enjoying your company here etc? I certainly never would have said that if I didn't mean it. Sorry that I worded my post in a manner that you apparently didn't like, and I do mean that sincerely.

If I were in personal communication with Daveh about this issue, I would not post that information here anyhow, due to the key word of "personal". I v. much hope that I am not out of line by saying this, but it was Daveh who originally put the limitations on this word in place.

My avatar is from KoL, if you choose to take it out of context, that is your right.

And I do still find your stance v. aggressive on this matter, and, to me at least, you do still come across as trying to "force" the issue. Not by discussing it, but by the words that you choose to use in that discussion. Using words like "foolish", "ridiculous" (seems to be a fairly blanket damning of Daveh when, as you say, he hasn't even posted his view and/or reasons here), "repressed", and basically coming across as saying that this censorship has to end now. Maybe that is just my fault for misreading your posts, but it is a v.v. strong impression that I have had from all of your posts in this thread. I guess it may just be coming across that way due to how strongly you feel.

Personally I feel no limitations at all due to any of the words that would be “bleeped out”, to the point that I don’t even really consider it “censorship”.

[ragged-gothic]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post of yesterday. I feel, based on this post, I should respond to your points.

Sorry ragged, but I'm not really up to properly going through walls of text at the mo (even though I realise that I am replying with yet another one). I'll answer a few of your points, but in doing so, I may have inadvertently missed some things that you've said....

I understand that. If you wish to respond either more comprehensively, or in greater detail, please PM me. Thanks.

I have no "rank" to pull. Other than mods and admins, we are all equal here, and I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise. The only reason I pointed it out was because I was saying that this is the first time that I'd seen this as an issue here. Surely you can see that if I were saying that based on a one week observation of these forums that would be rather diff to getting on for two yrs of observation? That was the only point that I was trying to make.

I accept that you weren’t trying “to pull rank”. It may be a misperception on my part. I did try, when noting the sense I felt that you were, that “I will take it on faith, however, that this is not your intent.” Perhaps you missed sentence in my monolithic wall of text.

No personal attack on you was intended. Did you not read the parts that I said about enjoying your company here etc? I certainly never would have said that if I didn't mean it. Sorry that I worded my post in a manner that you apparently didn't like, and I do mean that sincerely.

I also accept that you intended no personal attack on me. I was taken aback by some of the things in your post, and I felt defensive, probably more than I should have.

If I were in personal communication with Daveh about this issue, I would not post that information here anyhow, due to the key word of "personal". I v. much hope that I am not out of line by saying this, but it was Daveh who originally put the limitations on this word in place.

I am not aware of who the text censor was set up by, how much conscious choice went into applying it or choosing the terms to censor, or when, in the history of the forum, it was done. As to personal communications, please see below.

My avatar is from KoL, if you choose to take it out of context, that is your right.

Since I am not involved in KoL, how else could I take it but “out of context”? Surely you can see what the image of a woman, in what appears to be a rather brief outfit and high boots, holding a whip connotes. If I showed it to 12 people not involved in KoL or these forums, I think I can safely predict the answer the majority would give.

And I do still find your stance v. aggressive on this matter, and, to me at least, you do still come across as trying to "force" the issue. Not by discussing it, but by the words that you choose to use in that discussion. Using words like "foolish", "ridiculous" (seems to be a fairly blanket damning of Daveh when, as you say, he hasn't even posted his view and/or reasons here), "repressed", and basically coming across as saying that this censorship has to end now. Maybe that is just my fault for misreading your posts, but it is a v.v. strong impression that I have had from all of your posts in this thread. I guess it may just be coming across that way due to how strongly you feel.

I strongly believe it should end now. Perhaps I haven’t the support in that I thought I would have. I am surprised that I would be taken so to task, by you and others, for trying to bring the thread back to the original line of discussion after it had seriously strayed.

None of the words I used: "foolish", "ridiculous", "repressed", were ever personally directed at daveh. So neither you, nor he, nor anyone else mistakes this, they were not directed at daveh, nor at any one person. They were directed at a policy. That policy, in my personal opinion, can be described accurately by those terms. Others opinions may, and do, differ.

Personally I feel no limitations at all due to any of the words that would be “bleeped out”, to the point that I don’t even really consider it “censorship”.

Fair enough, I accept that you don’t consider it “censorship”. Though it is stating the obvious, I very much do consider it as such.

________________

Sorry but another “wall of text”, I’m afraid, though hopefully more readable with the responses interspersed. I would like to add one last point: it is not for me alone that I’ve argued this point, it is on behalf of all the forum community, for what I believe should be respect for all our rights and ability to use the language responsibly.

Since there appears to be a consensus forming that disagrees with me, and since every time I post to this thread in response to other’s own responses to me, I am labeled as “aggressive” and considered to be “forcing the issue” (when my intent all along was merely to advocate for the side of the issue that I feel strongly in favour of) I intend to refrain from posting on this issue in the forums any further. I realize that my arguments would be best dealt with in another manner. If anyone wishes to discuss this further with me, or wishes a response to their opinions of this issue from me, I respectfully ask that, from this point on, they PM me. I am quite willing to discuss most any topic in private messages. I am no longer comfortable posting further public responses, however, nor do I feel that further postings from me on this topic are wanted.

Thank you, to all who have taken the time to read what I have said in regards to this issue, and to all who have responded.

[nicholasenj]

wow, all this because someone reccomended a song by the sëx pistols.

I haven't this many walls of text in two pages since the great MHL crisis of '07