Guild Wars.

[Hissien]

The Thieve's Guild and the Bards could team up, as they both use sneaky means to get their ends. The Bard's would use propoganda.

OOOH propaganda! I'm soooooo scared lol.

[Lunar Delta]

Don't underestimate the Thieves Guild. Keep in mind that their tendrils of influence extend everywhere. (At least, they do after you finish their quest line). Guards, shop owners, officials, bureaucrats, all could be asked/bribed/"persuaded" to lend their help in various direct or indirect, underhanded ways. Their skill at infiltration, sabotage, and undermining important assets (be they people, supply lines, weapon caches, coin that could be used for supplies, etc, etc) are second to none. Kind of difficult to fight an enemy that is nowhere to be seen, and is yet hiding in every shadow, and around every corner, knows all the right people in all the right places, and always seems to be one step ahead of you. This is especially true for the Nightingales. Just look at how much chaos Karliah was able to cause, and it was such a beautifully long-term plan, too.

Eyes open, and walk with the shadows!

[Masked Pillow]

The Thieve's Guild and the Bards could team up, as they both use sneaky means to get their ends. The Bard's would use propoganda.

OOOH propaganda! I'm soooooo scared lol.

Don't underestimate the use of propoganda. The Nazis managed to take control of Europe due to propoganda

[Hissien]

Yes but remember this war just involves guilds, so it only involves them and everyone already hates the mages.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Can some one actually find solid evidence of this whole Magic>all other forms of combat theory, or is everyone just talking out of their ass cause like I said, it seems so far through my playing in the College that war/combat is the last thing they worry about. The Arch-mage won't even respond to insubordination.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Can some one actually find solid evidence of this whole Magic>all other forms of combat theory, or is everyone just talking out of their ass cause like I said, it seems so far through my playing in the College that war/combat is the last thing they worry about. The Arch-mage won't even respond to insubordination.

If you're using an organization like the College or the defunct Mage's Guild as your example, then you're 100% right. They're scholars and book worms. They don't have the mentality to face a group like the Companions.

If you used an example like the Imperial War College where the Battlemages are trained...well, that would be a horse of a different color. That's a military organization. They're masters of all schools of magic with a special fondness for Destruction and Conjuration, and they're much more interested in the practical applications of such magicka than its study. They're also trained in the use of arms and armor and receive basic military body conditioning to boot. I can't imagine a more terrible opponent in all of Tamriel than a fully trained Battlemage. Just look at the toughest enemies in Skyrim - the Thalmor Justicars at high levels, especially the guards of their prison keep. The Imperial War College uses training adapted from Aldmeri predecessors.

Then there's the even more insane Battlemage castes like the Akaviri or the Dremora Valkynaz. Now those are some frightening war wizard organizations by all accounts.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Can some one actually find solid evidence of this whole Magic>all other forms of combat theory, or is everyone just talking out of their ass cause like I said, it seems so far through my playing in the College that war/combat is the last thing they worry about. The Arch-mage won't even respond to insubordination.

If you're using an organization like the College or the defunct Mage's Guild as your example, then you're 100% right. They're scholars and book worms. They don't have the mentality to face a group like the Companions.

If you used an example like the Imperial War College where the Battlemages are trained...well, that would be a horse of a different color. That's a military organization. They're masters of all schools of magic with a special fondness for Destruction and Conjuration, and they're much more interested in the practical applications of such magicka than its study. They're also trained in the use of arms and armor and receive basic military body conditioning to boot. I can't imagine a more terrible opponent in all of Tamriel than a fully trained Battlemage. Just look at the toughest enemies in Skyrim - the Thalmor Justicars at high levels, especially the guards of their prison keep. The Imperial War College uses training adapted from Aldmeri predecessors.

Then there's the even more insane Battlemage castes like the Akaviri or the Dremora Valkynaz. Now those are some frightening war wizard organizations by all accounts.

Extremely correct on this, and this isn't even a matter of whether or not magic>weapons, because battle mages use both, there's no getting through these tanks. You're example of battle mages was spot on, I hate the Valkynaz warrior type, because they still use magic with their weapons, annoying [&@%!]. Something I've noticed though in Skyrim is, save for the Thalmor there really aren't any battle mages I can think of, the draugr maybe, but still.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Some of the Penitus Oculatus and Stormcloaks use Destruction and One Handed at the same time, a common Battlemage or Spellsword tactic. You're right, though. This enemy type is uncommon in Skyrim, but renowned as one of the deadliest masters of war in Tamriel. There's a reason the top military adviser to the Emperor is known as the Imperial Battlemage. He is the lord of all the Empire's armies and they answer to him, above any general. The Battlemages are also engineers, a little explored fact in previous games where siege engines were rare, but those siege engines that are used to sack either Whiterun or Windhelm in Skyrim were probably engineered at the Battlemage academy.

Any good army, of course, is well rounded and includes cavalry, archers, scouts, healers and the like. It's kind of a nerd scenario to put one "type" against another, especially guild conflicts. As they appear in the game, I'd say the Companions wide the floor in a straight up fight. Depending on terrain, setup, preparedness etc. If the DB is allowed to assassinate in shadow they obviously win, and the Thieves have excellent stealth archers as well. If this is going to be determined by straight up duels between the leaders of the various guilds that's harder to call...also, do we include the Legion, the Stormcloaks and other factions?

edit: Crap..how could I forget the Forsworn Briarhearts? Now that's a horribly adept Battlemage that I fear even at high levels!

[Da_BossMaN69]

[&@%!] the Briar Hearts, hate those guys with a passion, also Vampires, Falmer, The blades (seen delphine use a spell, and Esbern has a sword), Vigilants, somewhat ridicolous but you could make the case dragons are battlemages, in the sense they use both melee and magic, (thu'um is just an ancient albeit powerful school). So thats all I can think of actually not that bad of a number actually.

[Hissien]

TECHNICALLY speaking we don't know anything about the mages and their combat experience. I'd wager faralda would know a bit about combat since her school specializes it and she could be aged from 25-100. But the others...... I'm not so sure.

[Oasis23]

I see a Brotherhood-Thieves Guild alliance easily defeating the College of Winterhold. The guild would ask their contact, Enthir I think, for intel on the college. He would tell them about the cave leading to the Midden, which is actually accessible from the ground. A team of skilled DB assassins would slip in at night and destroy the sleeping mages

[Assassin540]

Yeah I think that the Brotherhood and the Thieve's guild would team up, and I mean let's face it guys in the Brotherhood are all trained assassins and the Thieves Guild have alot of well trained people to they have a former Morag Tong assassin that never hurts. I think they would win because they wouldn't fight fair they would kill leaders of the other guild's in the night while they're asleep they would continue on and on with Guerilla attacks.

[Narzul]

Any member of the Circle of the Companions would tear through the Dark Brotherhood assassins and Thieves' Guild members in a straight up fight, though I think people fail to give Karliah and Mercer proper credit for their fighting skills. Regardless, werewolves can simply exploit their power attack and knock any opponent to the ground until they're dead. As for the Mages, that's a different story. They're not very durable in and of themselves but the damage output is variable and high and I bet that Conjuration chap knows how to summon (a) Dremora Lord(s), who are, of course, terrifyingly powerful.

[Knows-Many-Secrets]

Attacking the College would be suicidal for the Companions o.o At least to me. The place is a literal fortress that's nearly impossible to reach save for the extremely narrow bridge and a secret tunnel that's filled with ice wraiths and a few undead. Assuming the Companions do not know about the secret entrance their only hope is that little bridge or a long siege.

As been said before the mages can summon their food in and have a magical garden in the Archmage's room. Also, being mages, you can be fairly assured they are extremely well stocked on tons of edible foods originally intended for potions. I'd wager they can hold out in a siege for months, if not indeffinately. While in a warm, well lit and magically catered castle. As for siege weapons, I rather doubt a mercenary group has the actual manpower or wealth to own war machines in the first place. Also consider the severe lack of wood in the area to try and build one. Other than ripping down the village houses, none of which are made of thick enough wood for a good catapult. And then you take into account the ancient wards and barriers placed on the college itself that let it survive a massive, city-leveling catastrophe. I think it can survive a few rocks being thrown at it.

As far as their lack of combat experience, we really don't know. I'm certain J'zargo and the other students don't have any as their just young adults. But the teachers? They were around for the Great War, and a major part of their research is apparently going down into ancient ruins FILLED with undead, dwemer war machines, and deformed elves to study them. From what we've seen, a mage that doesn't have a functional understanding of how to do battle magic is a dead mage. They took a brand new, fresh student that has attended exactly one class into an ancient tomb. And when undead starting appearing and attacking him, what did Tolfdir do? SEND HIM FURTHER IN. Not once did the old man think I couldn't defend myself. Crazy [&@%!] even made me fight an immensely powerful battlemage viking zombie ALONE while he tried to depower it so it'd be vulnerable. Why would you do that to me, Tolfdir!? WHY DID YOU WANT ME TO DIE?

Ahem...

We also see even the lowly apprentices practicing battle magic every day, presumably as part of their beginning training sessions. So every mage in the College has at least a basic understanding of how to defend themselves, and most have probably had to exercise that in an actual life or death situation at least once. Practice duels are also apparently a thing as live demonstrations of combat magic was the very first lesson you see.

While I agree the newer members wouldn't have the mentality to really handle warfare, they'd almost certainly NOT be front line fighters. These are teachers and students. Not an army. The weakest would be kept back from the major fighting, maybe given minor defensive roles like throwing spells randomly at the invaders from the safety of the College. The actual teachers would be the ones fighting. The masters of magic who have decades of experience in their respective arts. And the College has a master for each school of magic. Lets take a look at what the different schools can do at master level.

Destruction - Infinite range without the issue with a gravitational curve on the shots. Even a novice mage could sit in the tower tossing a basic fireball now and again. Since we all seem to be assuming the guilds have more troops than the named NPCs we see (Someone mentioned Aela having a group of archers at her disposal) the novices would realistically take turns so their magica doesn't deplete. And they are in relative safety, as even the greatest archer can't hit a shot at that distance with 100% accuracy. Not while avoiding randomly thrown fireballs anyway. Then you have the master destruction spells that can do massive damage in a large radius. Easily blowing away enemy troops. It's not so easy to dodge a fireball as an entire group. Especially when there's ten or so fireballs flying at you. You most certainly WILL have people getting hit and injured. Which brings me to my next point.

Restoration - Healers. Healers win wars. Every novice mage is no doubt taught the basics of healing magic as it's simply essential for self preservation. So the youngest and most inexperienced could have a use tending to the wounded or at least functioning as nurses for the more experienced healers. The trauma of seeing all those wounds and blood up close would be pretty bad admittedly. But not as bad as my next point...

Illusion - This spell school is my personal favorite, and one I feel is under appreciated. While a novice illusionist is of little use, the master of illusion residing in the College would simply be immensely terrifying to deal with. Spells not having a limited range means they can use a frenzy spell or fear spell from the College easily. Small bands of men suddenly going into a frenzy and attacking their fellow warriors would be disastrous to morale, even for the most hardened soldier. I'd imagine it's a lot worse when some of your men turn into the perfect killing machine NATURALLY. Of course if the invaders manage to break in through the front gate somehow they still have to deal with...

Conjuration - Oh boy, where to start. We have Flame Atronachs for extra ranged firepower, frost atronachs for heavy hitting ice wall, and storm atronachs for a mix and match. Then the Dremora Lords who are simply beastly fighters, easily on par with most human soldiers from a lore perspective. Also a note, no. The mage doesn't need the demon's respect. Once the summoning is done the demon must do what is asked of them. The dremora may try to trick the summoner or convince them of doing something to lift this limitation, but an experienced conjurationist will not have this issue.

Then you have alteration that is pretty much a wildcard. It could be used to do almost anything Tolfdir could come up with provided enough prep time and support from his other mages. And the College is where most of the enchanted weapons in Skyrim come from. So you can bet they are decked out in magical enchantments to make like easier.

It isn't that magic is innately superior than standard warriors. It's the raw versatility of magic combined with the relative impenetrable fortress they are sitting in. Magic is knowledge as a literal form of power. In this world those eggheads are more powerful than the nerds of our world BECAUSE they are eggheads. These scientists can physically science you to death. And if you give the mages time to pull their big brains together and think of a plan, they can and will ruin any invading force long before the College is breached.

Now if the mages were out on an open battlefield it may be a different story all together.

[Assassin540]

Any member of the Circle of the Companions would tear through the Dark Brotherhood assassins and Thieves' Guild members in a straight up fight, though I think people fail to give Karliah and Mercer proper credit for their fighting skills. Regardless, werewolves can simply exploit their power attack and knock any opponent to the ground until they're dead. As for the Mages, that's a different story. They're not very durable in and of themselves but the damage output is variable and high and I bet that Conjuration chap knows how to summon (a) Dremora Lord(s), who are, of course, terrifyingly powerful.

I for the most part agree with you most of the Dark Brotherhood members would get killed in hand to hand most not all of them. But I don't think the Brotherhood would give them the chance to fight hand to hand they would fight dirty .

[Knows-Many-Secrets]

Any member of the Circle of the Companions would tear through the Dark Brotherhood assassins and Thieves' Guild members in a straight up fight, though I think people fail to give Karliah and Mercer proper credit for their fighting skills. Regardless, werewolves can simply exploit their power attack and knock any opponent to the ground until they're dead. As for the Mages, that's a different story. They're not very durable in and of themselves but the damage output is variable and high and I bet that Conjuration chap knows how to summon (a) Dremora Lord(s), who are, of course, terrifyingly powerful.

I for the most part agree with you most of the Dark Brotherhood members would get killed in hand to hand most not all of them. But I don't think the Brotherhood would give them the chance to fight hand to hand they would fight dirty .

Also a small note here. Do remember the Dark Brotherhood has a master destruction mage from the College and a former member of the Circle who got kicked out of the Companions for being too blood thirsty.

Spoiler:

Which coming from a pack of WEREWOLVES is saying something.

Both of whom are assumably skilled in stealth and secretive murder. There's something to be said by turning the corner and finding a fireball coming from the dark side of the room

Spoiler:

(Or a werewolf in your closet)

Dark Brotherhood is certainly the most varied in their individual member's skills. They have a heavy hitting warrior, a master destruction mage, another mage in the dunmer woman, a pre-teen master vampire (She's over 300 years old. She can probably still ruin someone's day), a redguard alik'ir swordsman, a shadowscale trained from birth, and Astrid who seems to be a master assassin in the old school cloak and dagger style.

It's interesting actually. In Skyrim the Brotherhood only has two strait up dagger assassins. It has a VERY diverse group as far as important characters go. I suppose it really is more of a family organization!

[Hissien]

No experienced war leader would lead their fighters over a trap like that narrow bridge. And the darkbrotherhood is hardly a large group. At most there are 8 members one being a vampire with the body of a child. At the end it is two members with no experience. A listener. A dual wielding awesome redguard. And the same pre teen child vampire.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

Who says vampiric children aren't as deadly? The "child" has been "alive" for 300 years. That's not experience?

[Hissien]

She said herself that she is not suited to physical labor, so I assume she's not strong enough. I was saying that they were experienced by not attacking directly. The no experience members are the initiates. She is about deception. Not actually attacking.

[Knows-Many-Secrets]

I assumed we were using the guilds before the quests are completed where they have all their original characters available. Otherwise we have each faction being lead by a Dragonborn. The College in particular having the Staff of Magnus wielding archmage dragonborn. From all lore accounts that'd be insanely overpowered!

Also a note. It doesn't matter if no experienced war leader wouldn't send his troops over a narrow bridge if that bridge is the ONLY entrance they know of. You can't get to the college without going over that narrow bridge. Unless you want to try and climb up, which would be insanely hazardous and force your troops to leave behind most of their armor and weapons.

Also, the Dark Brotherhood DO have extra assassin NPCs they send after the player as a random event. And if we only use the characters we see ingame the Companions only have a dozen or so fighters as well. Nowhere near the numbers you'd need to besiege a major fortress like the College, which has about the same numbers within the college and just about every court mage we see in Skyrim. Seeing as most of the ones you speak to who are friendly are considered members. The Court Mage of Windhelm comes to mind as specifically stating he was one.

[Hissien]

Eh. I doubt I would count those random agents because if that was the case there would be more thieves and more rogue wizards from the college. The assassins could enter through the midden easily. And could honestly kill the mages if they got that far.but since the midden has dragur the augr and a few ice wraiths running about I doubt they could but IF they did then they could kill the mages easily if they were sleeping.

[Knows-Many-Secrets]

True. But I'm willing to guess that the Archmage, being aware of the Midden, would put up some form of defensive barrier down there. If there isn't already one in place. Has to be some reason the ice wraiths and zombies never break into the main College.

But you're definitively right. The Dark Brotherhood would have the best chances against the College purely because infiltration and murder with low weight armaments is their forte. The Companions would either have to attack through the bridge entrance or leave their armor and weapons behind trying to scale the place. I don't see them knowing about the Midden. Dark Brotherhood probably because they actually have a former college mage on staff.

[Hissien]

I'm still going with the college but the brotherhood definetly has the best chance of defeating the mages.

[MaKo]

In direct fight, certainly the College has advantage. If the fight is not that direct, DB would probably win. Just my thoughts, I voted College.

[Masked Pillow]

Surely the mages could simply place large stone blocks on top of the two midden trapdoors. Then the bridge would truly be the only way in, and, if I remember correctly, the Augur of Dunlain was one of the most powerful mages in history, but then he lost his body, but retained his power, so I'm sure he could sort out anyone venturing into the Midden