Why are all the Imperial Soldiers in Oblivion Imperial men?

[Stefan_S]

This suggests that both answers are correct: a member of the Imperial Legion can be assigned to serve in a City Watch, but a member of the City Watch need not be a part of the Imperial Legion in the first place.

You have a mix of transferred Legion soldiers, supplemented by soldiers who were hired straight from the city roster itself.

very interesting indeed, this is probably the right answer

[Stefan_S]

Morrowind is different. The Imperials captured the province not by complete military conquest, but by allowing the government of morrowind to include all the houses but the main power to be the Imperials. The houses agreed to govern using Imperial law (as part of the agreement for Morrowind to become part of the empire). House Hlaalu has their own guards in their cities (such as Balmora). read this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:House_Hlaalu

I dont think its defreint,
Skyrim evrey hold uses its pepole to guard it self unless the war hits.
Morrowind: evrey house uses its pepole to gaurd their land
Oblivion evrey City uses its pepole to gaurd.

except cyrodill is the main province, meanwhile skyrim and morrowind are outer provinces.

The Empire would hold greater interest in managing the cities in cyrodill than in morrowind or skyrim (with skyrim a higher priority though than morrowind)

[Stefan_S]

... His services are to be contracted to the Countess of Anvil for the remainder of his Imperial contract. When that contract expires, the Countess of Anvil may choose at her discretion to retain him or release him.

This suggests that both answers are correct: a member of the Imperial Legion can be assigned to serve in a City Watch, but a member of the City Watch need not be a part of the Imperial Legion in the first place.

You have a mix of transferred Legion soldiers, supplemented by soldiers who were hired straight from the city roster itself.

Although I believe even soldiers hired from the city roster itself could be called upon to assist Legion forces, etc. What do you think?

[Evil-i]

Just think of the various Town Guards as belonging to different regiments within the same army. Each regiment (town) would have it's own unique insignia and details of uniform.

As far as lore goes, it's a body of fiction that was patched together to support another body of fiction. It's going to contain holes, contradictions and points of illogic, and despite its intention, it really shouldn't be taken as infallible gospel. Arguing about it is less than pointless.

[Wolfie]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Allies_for_Bruma

If you visit the Imperial City, High Chancellor Ocato will refuse to call in the legions as they are needed to maintain order in the other provinces.

The Chancellor would over rule the counts if they where part of the legion

Also a member can be issued like that how ever he serves the empire, yes the empire pays them and all that, but it dont make them a part of the legion, maybe he is now only a gaurd instead of legion then?

much like if a solder got stuck with gaurding a city in till his time is up, is he still a solder?
some would say yes some would say no

I really think it be like if you where swtched form gaurding the king to being a common solder, your no lkonger in the same "faction"

[Stefan_S]

Just think of the various Town Guards as belonging to different regiments within the same army. Each regiment (town) would have it's own unique insignia and details of uniform.

As far as lore goes, it's a body of fiction that was patched together to support another body of fiction. It's going to contain holes, contradictions and points of illogic, and despite its intention, it really shouldn't be taken as infallible gospel. Arguing about it is less than pointless.

More like 'debating'.

[Stefan_S]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Allies_for_Bruma

If you visit the Imperial City, High Chancellor Ocato will refuse to call in the legions as they are needed to maintain order in the other provinces.

The Chancellor would over rule the counts if they where part of the legion

Also a member can be issued like that how ever he serves the empire, yes the empire pays them and all that, but it dont make them a part of the legion, maybe he is now only a gaurd instead of legion then?

much like if a solder got stuck with gaurding a city in till his time is up, is he still a solder?
some would say yes some would say no

I really think it be like if you where swtched form gaurding the king to being a common solder, your no lkonger in the same "faction"

Yes, I do believe it is a big plot hole that Ocato should have over the courts and make the cities send men. Although this is probably the case, maybe Bethesda forgot about this. It sounds a bit ridiculous if the High Chancellor can't order cities to do something in a time of crisis (as he is the head of the empire) especially in the home province of cyrodill. It's understandable if winterhold in the far away province of skyrim revolts against the empire, but for the Empire's own inner cities? I do believe Bethesda forgot about this.

[Wolfie]

Yes, I do believe it is a big plot hole that Ocato should have over the courts and make the cities send men. Although this is probably the case, maybe Bethesda forgot about this. It sounds a bit ridiculous if the High Chancellor can't order cities to do something in a time of crisis (as he is the head of the empire) especially in the home province of cyrodill. It's understandable if winterhold in the far away province of skyrim revolts against the empire, but for the Empire's own inner cities? I do believe Bethesda forgot about this.

He can order the citys, I'm saying they arer NOT part of the legion, as such nothing was aginst his orders, they dont report to the legion they report to the counts, who then reports to the empoor, basicly, of couse there is no "proof" either way.
Bascily to me legion is the guys who you know are part of legion not pepole that MAY be.
so for me atleast there are still only Imperial's, and no i dont think there was only them in "real" life for them, its just a game function

[Stefan_S]

Yes, I do believe it is a big plot hole that Ocato should have over the courts and make the cities send men. Although this is probably the case, maybe Bethesda forgot about this. It sounds a bit ridiculous if the High Chancellor can't order cities to do something in a time of crisis (as he is the head of the empire) especially in the home province of cyrodill. It's understandable if winterhold in the far away province of skyrim revolts against the empire, but for the Empire's own inner cities? I do believe Bethesda forgot about this.

He can order the citys, I'm saying they arer NOT part of the legion, as such nothing was aginst his orders, they dont report to the legion they report to the counts, who then reports to the empoor, basicly, of couse there is no "proof" either way.

True,

but as the emperor holds power in the Empire, he should be able to take over the courts. If an enemy force was attacking kvatch, for example, and kvatch was defenseless, the emperor should be able to order another city to help kvatch by sending some guards to help kvatch if no legions were available.

What kind of order in the empire would exist if each city could do what they want?

[Wolfie]

True,

but as the emperor holds power in the Empire, he should be able to take over the courts. If an enemy force was attacking kvatch, for example, and kvatch was defenseless, the emperor should be able to order another city to help kvatch by sending some guards to help kvatch if no legions were available.

and he COULD do this, the guys words where the legion, and IMO the guards are not part of the legion, in other words not part of the orders, of course if he told them not to help then it would be so

What kind of order in the empire would exist if each city could do what they want?

They cant do anything they want but they can gaurd and rule over them selfs for the msot part just fine, and I think gaurds are just that, them defending them selfs.

[Stefan_S]

True,

but as the emperor holds power in the Empire, he should be able to take over the courts. If an enemy force was attacking kvatch, for example, and kvatch was defenseless, the emperor should be able to order another city to help kvatch by sending some guards to help kvatch if no legions were available.

and he COULD do this, the guys words where the legion, and IMO the guards are not part of the legion, in other words not part of the orders, of course if he told them not to help then it would be so

What kind of order in the empire would exist if each city could do what they want?

They cant do anything they want but they can gaurd and rule over them selfs for the msot part just fine, and I think gaurds are just that, them defending them selfs.

Of course the cities can govern themselves, as the emperor does not have time to meddle with the affairs of each city. But, IMO the guards are part of the legion, or possibly part of the legion but with a different status.

[Dark Spark]

... the guards are part of the legion, or possibly part of the legion but with a different status.

Which means, of course: " 'Two weeks a year', my ass!"

[Wolfie]

Of course the cities can govern themselves, as the emperor does not have time to meddle with the affairs of each city. But, IMO the guards are part of the legion, or possibly part of the legion but with a different status.

And its fine that you belive this, how ever to me there is SOME and I admit its not defninte proof that they are not part of the legion while I can find nothing to say they are.

And I'll admit my "proof" is not enough to prove 100%, but I'm going with it for that reasson, and I guess to you your is the same as my view is to me.

then again its equaly possible tht Beth has no ideas them selfs

[H8Ball]

As the UESP Wiki clearly states (link in my last post), the City Guard forces are in fact Legion garrisons. It doesn't matter whether the faction NAMES are different in the Construction Set. It's the faction relationships that determine inter-faction likes/dislikes and ownership of cells/items. Unfortunately, the Construction Set has a major limitation. The factions are a "flat list", not a "tree structure". You can't define a sub-faction (a faction within a faction). And you need a faction to define ownership of cells/items by multiple NPC's.

But the crime system is obviously "hub-based", with multiple "local authority" sub-factions (City Guards in cities and Imperial Soldiers in the wilderness) and one "central authority" faction (the Imperial Legion in Imperial City). Local authorities will deal with crime locally and only notify central authority if your Bounty is high enough. And central authority always notifies ALL local authorities if Bounty is high enough. This allows minor crimes to be dealt with locally by local/central authorities, but serious crimes (e.g. murder) to automatically notify ALL authorities to trigger a Cyrodiil-wide manhunt, e.g. for murder.

But remember that crime is reported to a faction. If there was only ONE faction that ALL police belonged to, they'd ALL chase you whenever a crime is reported, leaving every city undefended as they ALL converge in one small area for a giant keystone cops "100 policemen trying to climb onto the same paddy wagon without falling off" chase. Also remember that NPC's have an AI state they can be in (Idle, Alert, Chase, etc) and each faction is like hidden AI entity with its own AI state. Each NPC's AI state can be changed individually but, if you tell the faction to change AI state, it will override ALL NPC's in the faction, telling them to adopt ITS AI state instead. So you can tell the faction to go to Chase mode and ALL NPC's in that faction will instantly go to Chase mode. It's like the difference between laboriously whispering the exact same order 100 times to 100 people one-by-one and shouting the order ONCE so the entire group of 100 can hear it at the same time.

To avoid the game degenerating into laugh-a-minute comedy, you need separate factions (one per city) to keep their AI states isolated. E.g. One faction can be in Idle mode (we're not aware of any Bounty unless you talk to us and we see you HAVE one) while another is in Chase mode (we GAVE you the Bounty so we ARE aware of it). This is how separate "local authorities" deal with crimes locally and notify each other, so separate factions need to be defined and you run across the CS limitation. But there IS a way to "fudge" the CS into implementing sub-factions. Define them as separate factions (so each can have their own AI state) and use scripting to communicate between them to SET the AI state. That way, the appearance in-game is of one overall central faction with multiple sub-factions, and you can implement a crime system that works either locally OR globally.

However, because Bethesda didn't stick to using the term Legion in ALL generic Legion NPC names, like they did with Legion Soldier, we have Skingrad Guard, Imperial City Guard, Palace Guard, etc, rather than Skingrad Legion Guard, Imperial City Legion Guard, Palace Legion Guard, etc. They also gave some Legion NPC's non-generic names, like Heironymus Lex, which makes things even more confusing. You'd then have to start using long names like Heironymus Lex (Imperial Legion Guard Captain). The clue is that heavy Legion army regiments (Soldiers, Imperial City Guards) wear variations on Steel (Heavy Armor), whereas light Legion garrison regiments (City Guards) wear variations on Chainmail/Mithril (Light Armor). Palace Guards and Legion/Guard Captains wear more ornate Steel outfits, as befits their rank. A major clue is that the Captain of each City Guard garrison wears a full Steel ornate outfit, much like Heironymus Lex, therefore he IS a member of the Imperial Legion and therefore so are the City Guards.

Oh, and I was wrong. Although the Blades (Emperor's bodyguards and spies) seem to be an elite sub-faction of the Legion (the army/police), they're not. They take no part in law enforcement, i.e. pursue and Arrest. But due to their high Responsibility, they WILL report any crime they witness, and I think to central authority since they're closely tied to the Emperor and therefore Imperial City.

[Wolfie]

As the UESP Wiki clearly states (link in my last post), the City Guard forces are in fact Legion garrisons. It doesn't matter whether the faction NAMES are different in the Construction Set. It's the faction relationships that determine inter-faction likes/dislikes and ownership of cells/items. Unfortunately, the Construction Set has a major limitation. The factions are a "flat list", not a "tree structure". You can't define a sub-faction (a faction within a faction). And you need a faction to define ownership of cells/items by multiple NPC's.

They say they are part of it yet leave NO link to this theroy, what if I called blades part of it?
they exsplin nothing to how they are part of it, nothing in game says they are, what am i missing here?
why would that make it right? Also I'm unsure what you mean by

It's the faction relationships that determine inter-faction likes/dislikes and ownership of cells/items

how are the garuds connceted?

[BFG]

...and this is why I use the Female Guards mod

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

Personally, I was always bothered by the fact that all the imperial legion soldiers (as well as every single guard) is a male imperial. It just seemed so unrealistic. Cyrodiil is a melting pot of different races, so I would think that at least a small amount of the legion has minority races.

Skyrim suffers from the same reason. Why is the imperial legion all imperials? There has to be some redguards or bretons or wood elves or whatever who are actually loyal to the empire, right? Being in the legion seems like it would be a good-paying job, so why don't we see more of a variety of races?

[Evil-i]

Personally, I was always bothered by the fact that all the imperial legion soldiers (as well as every single guard) is a male imperial. It just seemed so unrealistic. Cyrodiil is a melting pot of different races, so I would think that at least a small amount of the legion has minority races.

Skyrim suffers from the same reason. Why is the imperial legion all imperials? There has to be some redguards or bretons or wood elves or whatever who are actually loyal to the empire, right? Being in the legion seems like it would be a good-paying job, so why don't we see more of a variety of races?

Let's not forget that the American armed forces were still segregated a mere 64 years ago. ES has a way to go before catching up.

[H8Ball]

@Wolfie: You just have to accept that, naturally, all of the military factions are parts of one overall force which defends the land of Cyrodiil and upholds the law. It makes sense that the City Guards are local police/defence forces who report to the Imperial Legion, the central police/defence force. They also report to the local Count and/or Countess, who is a member of the ruling council in Imperial City, the seat of government overseen by the Emperor. The Blades report directly to the Emperor, but I bet they were recruited from the most elite and well-trained members of the City Guards, Imperial Legion or Palace Guards.

In reality, it's the same thing. There's a lot of crossover between public services. In a pinch, the Police are expected to help out as reserve soldiers and the Army and Fire Brigade are expected to help enforce the law. Also, bodyguards and secret agents are typically from long-term Police or Army backgrounds, as they're considered the most trustworthy and capable public servants, having gone through years of extensive discipline and training.

[Wolfie]

@Wolfie: You just have to accept that, naturally, all of the military factions are parts of one overall force which defends the land of Cyrodiil and upholds the law. It makes sense that the City Guards are local police/defence forces who report to the Imperial Legion, the central police/defence force. They also report to the local Count and/or Countess, who is a member of the ruling council in Imperial City, the seat of government overseen by the Emperor. The Blades report directly to the Emperor, but I bet they were recruited from the most elite and well-trained members of the City Guards, Imperial Legion or Palace Guards.

There is nothing that says the gaurds reports to them, and even if they do its proven they are not part as the chanclor says the legion can not help and the guards still can, they cant go aginst that order. weither you want to admit it or not the gaurds are seprerate form the legion, the legion is the army\ Natinaol police force
the gaurds are the CITY defenses paid for by the citys mostliekly live in the citys most of their lifes.
and are the city polive.
So the gaurds only have jurdiction in their city and land around (cop) while the legion is like the FBI more
I.E not the same.
Your assuming a lot of things which you have noting to base on at all.

In reality, it's the same thing. There's a lot of crossover between public services. In a pinch, the Police are expected to help out as reserve soldiers and the Army and Fire Brigade are expected to help enforce the law

Agreed but they are NOT repeat NOT the same.

[H8Ball]

@Wolfie: It's logical to assume the Guards are a branch of the Legion and they all work together. After all, they both do the same defense/police jobs, so a strong link between them is only natural, and UESP Wiki confirms it as I pointed out and linked to. Whether the Wiki writers made the same assumption or are basing it on a known source or not is besides the point. The connection is a neat logical one, and that's enough for me.

I'm not going to discuss this any further because you're just arguing the toss and hijacking this thread into an argument. I see the game my way. You see it yours. It's all part of the roleplaying experience which is different for every player. Let's leave it at that.

[OblivionDuruza]

Skyrim itself seems very socially advanced, particularly for a Medieval fantasy world. We've only really seen females take on the predominately and traditionally male role of the soldier or guard in Skyrim, although there are notable exceptions in Oblivion, which inclines me to believe that this is something possibly exclusive to the Nords, who may not follow traditional views on gender roles.

As for race, everything we've seen gives the inclination that the Legion in Cyrodiil is a separate Corp to those in other provinces. They are better equipped for example and it follows that the requirements for service are also different from the Foreign Legions. It's not too much of a stretch for me that the Empire does not allow Auxiliary troops to serve in Cyrodiil while allowing and even depending upon them in other provinces.

[Wolfie]

The way I see the gaurds\legion is like FBI and cops


gaurds only have power in their place, legion has it else where, they are NOT the same.

of course there is no way to prove it, but just like yours its logical to asumme they can have more then once polcie force type.

[H8Ball]

And remember that 200 years have passed between the times Oblivion and Skyrim are set in, so a lot of things have evolved, or devolved, depending on your viewpoint.

Look at how much the real world has changed in the last 100 years. If I could travel back in time, the technology I take for granted would seem like magic. People wouldn't believe me if I tried to explain it...

Spoiler:

What? A microwave oven? What's that? It can heat a plate of food piping hot in 60 seconds flat? Don't be silly! And you say you can carry a telephone in your pocket and talk to anyone in the world from anywhere, even up a mountain? Stupid! You'd never be able to carry MILES of copper wire! Electronic messages delivered anywhere in the world in seconds? We've already got that. It's called the Telegraph, it uses Morse Code and you're back to carrying MILES of copper wire again, this time THOUSANDS of miles. Impossible! Seeing and talking to family and friends anywhere in the world via a camera? That's stupid too. Where'd you put the tripod? Down your trouser leg? And who turns the handle? You can't develop the film that fast anyway! A projectorless self-lighting movie screen so flat you can hang it on the wall like a picture, and watch free movies, news and plays 24 hours a day? Where does the GIANT reel of film go? It's a little 5" shiny disc? You're nuts! A country-wide street map machine in your car that talks to you and gives you directions so you'll never get lost? You've been reading too much Jules Verne science fuction, matey. Next thing it'll be Martians! Eh? You have a fleet of space probes and two little robot car thingies trundling around Mars looking for them? Right, that's it. Help! Police! I'm being accosted by a crazy guy with science fiction delusions! Call the loon squad and tell them to bring a strait jacket!

I wonder what things will be like in ANOTHER 100 years? If any time travellers came back and tried to explain things, we'd probably slam them in a nice padded room too.