Daily Skyrim Debate: Skyrim Hold Wars

[RedDeadFred]

Can I change my vote? I have been convinced that the power of the Mages in Winterhold plus the small army of guards would be too powerful for any others. An invisible scout who can probably also cast basic detect life means that no one would be able to have a surprise attack on Winterhold and they would always have a good chance to take their enemy by surprise. Then there's the nicely bunched up armies. Perfect for an AOE destruction magic ambush. Through in a Dremora lord and mass paralysis and you have effectively destroyed an entire army in about 30 seconds. I just don't see how anyone would withstand the might of that many mages, several of which are masters.

When it comes time to invade, invisibility is on their side. Not just stealth but true invisibility. Perfect for scouting and finding weaknesses and surprise assassinations when no one else is around. Then there's the matter of raising a few dead troops to fight for them and conjuring atronachs and dremora lords over and over each time they die. They could just keep sending summons forward and slowly whittle down the defenses of minor strongholds without putting any of their people at risk.

The college is just too easy to defend and the mages allow for the most flexible, low risk and high damaging army. I just don't see what could kill them.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Yea I'm not seeing this whole Mages College>All logic, I mean magic is powerful yes, but they can't be a serious power, I mean realistically fully expand your lore and everything and how many soldiers do you have potentially? What 3-5 hundred at max. And when one dies then what? You put years into building just one soldier into the powerhouse he is. As far as I know magic=stealth=warrior in the Lore, provided each member has enough skill.

Don't see what can kill them? What about an army of 10,000+ angry and fearless Nords charging your ranks with werewolves leading the front, I don't care how much of a master of the Arcane you are, you're not killing that many troops. If mages were so powerful they'd more than just an institution for learning about it. I have yet to see solid Lore that mages are strong enough to just tear everyone a fresh one.

And defense? Line up several catapults and just the bombard the [&@%!] out of the College, thing will break eventually no matter what spells are put up, That magicka isn't coming from thin air, it's taking some conscious effort to put it up and even so just break the leg of the College by destroying the Sea Arch and drown them out in the water. Only the master of Alteration would survive that and once that's done they're not destruction masters are they? Thats when you hit them with arrows/catapults.

If they were really as strong as everyone says they are than there wouldn't be a civil war since they'd force a treaty and neither would there be a Thalmor Threat. I mean it stands to reason if this were the case Mages would be the kings of Skyrim and Tamriel but most of the time they're kept in check by warriors. So as it stands the Lore is vague or clear (depending on how you intepret this) as to magic vs steel debate.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

I'm not convinced by the power of the College either. Their Arch Mage is obviously not the smartest, allowing himself to go on a foolish expedition that killed all his friends as a youth and also allowing the power hungry Thalmor into his school. Their numbers are small. Winterhold itself is the tiniest of all the holds in Skyrim - the town itself is virtually deserted and there are no real outlying settlements to speak of. Taking the town would be easy enough. Then it's just a matter of demolishing the bridge to the college and starving out the mages. Keep a few markmen nestled in the surrounding hills in case any of the mages (how few of them there are) feel brave enough to show their faces.

And more to the point, what makes anyone think that the mages WANT to fight? Or that they are required to? The mages belong to the college, not to Winterhold.

Seriously, the hold's political elite would surrender in the face of an attack. The college, which has had very cold relations with the Jarl, probably want nothing more than to continue their research in peace like all good bookish intellectuals. Once Winterhold and the Jarl are defeated (quite and easy task), it will be too easy to secure peace with the college by promising to leave them alone and continue all their traditional privileges and rights.

[Da_BossMaN69]

The question I ask most of all, or am interested in is in the world of Nirn, which of the three classes outrank each other, if any at all. It was always my understanding that they are all equal, and at the end of the day it all comes down to the skill of each respective member.

In that a Hold guard would trounce a simple necromancer or college novice, I mean each guard is a battle hardened machine raised for battle, hell the entire province is full of them. Not even their bards can just sing/dance even they have to go out and slaughter some unfortunate bandit or monster on a daily basis.

And the opposite is just as true in that a court wizard or college member of the higher rankings would easily vaporize a simple bandit or sellsword.

I mean honestly I think when it comes down to it the highest and strongest mage we know of, Savos Aren vs the strongest warrior, Delphine (I think this much can be agreed upon, she's a blade for starters and has killed numerous assassination teams sent by the strongest power in Tamriel, the Thalmor) we know who the winner would be.

And Im not saying it to be biased, but simple truth she has killed numerous wizards before of very high skill, what makes him any more different than the others.

So in short, the college would be a strong unit yes, and would easily take on many of the smaller holds, but when it comes to the larger ones who would have better equipped and trained soldiers, they couldn't stand a chance.

Also who is the strongest warrior in Skyrim, I'd say Delphine but if anyone else has a suggestion just throw it out there.

[OblivionDuruza]

It all depends on the timeframe in TES history, because for a long while I would have put my money on Winter Hold. Now, I'd probably back the Jarl of Solitude, although, the circumstances of this war make all the difference. It is improbable that no alliances would stand in a Civil War of the like, and depending on the state of the Empire the game is changed dramatically.

[Masked Pillow]

Oo! If there's going to be alliances, then I say Winterhold, Eastmarch and The Pale would become allies, because Winterhold would want the soldiers, and The Pale and Eastmarch would want the mage power.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Not so, Ulfric wouldn't want a college of 'foreigners' led by a dark elf anywhere near his army, if anything they would be destroyed in that alliance.

[Masked Pillow]

Why would he turn down the chance of having a force of mass destruction amongst his allies? He isn't stupid, and isn't a complete racist. Even High Elves can join the Stormcloaks if they want to.

[Da_BossMaN69]

His army would personally kill every college member that walks into their ranks, trust me. The only reason a non-nord is able to join the Stormcloaks is for gameplay reasons, there is hardly a chance they'd let you join if they stayed true to the Story.

[OblivionDuruza]

I have to agree with BossMaN there, the Nords, specifically those under the Stormcloak banner, have an ingrown distrust and hate for non-Nords and for Mages, both of which the College has come to be. If anything, the College would remain neutral, although as it stands, Winterhold is strong Stromcloak territory. Nonetheless, this talk of Stormcloaks takes us back to the game and away from the premise of the thread, that of a lack of the traditional Civil War.

[Masked Pillow]

Okay, but I still think Winterhold and the Pale would form an alliance.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

Haafingar and The Reach both have mountainous terrain, so that's a plus. White Hold is surrounded, so it's not going to last long, so it'll have to make alliances. Also, the College of Winterhold only has one solid ground entrance, which is the bridge, and just magicians can cross.

[TiberSeptimsGrandma]

I think all the major holds (The Rift, Eastmarch, Haafingar, The Reach, and Whiterun) have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm also going on the assumption that the Dovahkiin is neutral, and that this civil war replaces the Empire-Stormcloak war.

Haafingar: First off, if there's no stormcloak faction, then that means that High King Torygg is still alive, which is a HUGE advantage because Elisif would have been an impediment to the military stratagem of Solitude. Solitude also does have a port, so they could trade with other provinces for supplies, and they're on top of a HUGE rock above the sea, the only way to reach the actual city is to use the only way in, which is a big advantage.
But remember that there's no need for the Empire, or General Tullius to be there, since there's no Stormcloak rebellion, which means that there would be no recruiting station, so the number of forces would most likely be just more than the number Whiterun would have. Also, dragonbridge would be a huge supplier of... well, supplies, were that taken, that would be a major hinderance to the city. And on top of all that, the Thalmor is still trying to get Skyrim to break into chaos and anarchy, in order to take over, so they most likely have ambassadors in Skyrim's capital, breathing down Torygg's neck.

The Reach: There are a lot of internal feuds going on, such as the Silver-Blood's corruption, and the Forsworn in and outside of the city. True, the forsworn would probably attack any forces trying to get to Markarth, but they would also try and attack any supplies trying to get in there also.
Markarth is extremely defesible though, it's made entirely of stone, so no burning it down, it's dwemer architecture is superior to any other form, so it's sturdy, and basically, as long as they had an EXTREME surplus of food (there's a seemingly unending source of water flowing through the city so that's not an issue), they could most likely just wait out the war.

Whiterun: Honestly, the only chance these guys have is an alliance with BOTH Haafingar and The Reach, or with The Rift and Eastmarch. Not that that isn't plausible, Balgruuf is an awesome guy, but if it's every man for himself here people are going to be wary so while alliances could happen, it's not very likely, more like a temporary ceasefire. Their only advantage is the companions, who aren't going to let Whiterun fall, because who knows what damage would become of Jorrvaskr, and they do have the blind pride of Ysgramor, so they most likely would fight IF backed into a corner.

Eastmarch: Eastmarch has Ulfric, a relentless mofo, they have a port, a city with one way in, and Eastmarch is COLD with a double capital C, no one would be able to beseige the city for too long without having to leave.
It does have internal struggles though, hatred of the dark elves, and let's not forget "The Butcher" who I'm assuming hasn't been caught yet.

And finally, The Rift: I think Riften has one of the biggest advantages in a civil war. Riften ground is fertile, they have lots of mills, farms, and settlements outside of the city, and they are in a geographically sound location. Riften is located on top of a plateau (somewhat), and there are two roads up it. The only other way to Riften is to cross over mountains, but if the Jarl were to garrison forces at Ivarstead, this would not be a problem. Riften is also extremely close to Cyrodiil and Morrowind (even though there isn't much of Morrowind left), so they could use Cyrodiil as neutral territory in order to flank other cities, and they could trade with them as well.
There is the issue of the Thieves Guild though. While I highly doubt that the Guild would take any interest in the war, the Jarl would crack down on them if they were to act up, so my guess is they would lay low until the conflict ended, then use the resounding chaos after the war to establish more of a grip in other regions. There is also Maven Black-Briar, who is very powerful and likes her power. If Riften were to fall, she would lose all of her power, so whats to stop her from using her Dark Brotherhood connections to have important people from other holds assassinated?

Spoiler:

If the brotherhood can assassinate the Emperor, I think they can manage a military official.

These are all just the basic facts, all in all, most of the cities are very evenly matched.
And then there's Whiterun..

[Da_BossMaN69]

Tiber no offense dude but I can easily smack down your Whiterun=the weakest city/hold argument easily. Just go back a few pages and read my post, but I will agree with you on the rift never thought of it like that before.

But last thing I have to say, guys come on you all label defense as a huge factor into war. Let me make this clear; if you're best and only strategy in war is to stay behind a wall then you might as well be bending over to give it up to the attacker.

Getting in a Seige is the absolute last thing you want happening to you in war. You think Markarth would keep it together under a seige? No, [&@%!], way. The city can't even function during the day during peacetime what makes you think having an army outside of it would suddenly band everyone together, these people would turn into a mob and be begging to surrender, the people are not patriotic enough to outlast a seige not to mention theres no need to seige them like I said Markarth is too isolated to be a problem they could never break out of their mountains, they're is literally no need to trouble yourself with that city.

and for those of you who doubt the seige theory just think of any major seige during the classical to medieval times, hardly any of them won.

[TiberSeptimsGrandma]

I know Whiterun isn't the worst city, but I honestly didn't feel like spending time thinking about it too much, I wanted to get to The Rift quicker

[Da_BossMaN69]

I know Whiterun isn't the worst city, but I honestly didn't feel like spending time thinking about it too much, I wanted to get to The Rift quicker

I'll agree with the plateau tactics, definitely one of the better protected citites the plateau offers good defense and mobility, but I suggest you look at page 2/3 for 2 of my ideas on this civil war, one explains whiterun and why its the best winner, and one that downplays markarth because of this 'defense=winning war' nonsense

[Masked Pillow]

Getting away from the defense idea. Winterhold could make some kind of navy. It only needs a small portion of it's army. If Winterhold does have an alliance with the Pale, then they don't have to waste soldiers and mages on defending the mountain passes, and the remaining forces can be used down in the south attacking Windhelm.

Winterhold's navy can join The Pale's at Dawnstar, where they can restock on supplies. If they don't have an alliance, then Winterhold could just sail into Dawnstar's port and launch fireballs at the town, reducing it to cinders within mere hours.

Either way, the navy would then travel to the mouth of the Karth river, where they could split up into smaller vessels and traverse the marshes, until they manage to surround Morthal and take it over.

With Hjaalmarch taken, the Winterholdians (bad name, I know) have a fortress with which they could place soldiers, and then they would have foothold with which to attack Haafingar.

After taking Hjaalmarch, the mages and soldiers would get back into their ships and sail to Solitude's harbour, where they could easily burn all ships and steal supplies from the East Empire Company Warehouse.

It would be a tough fight up the hill to the gates of Solitude, but the Winterholdians would win, but take quite a few casualties. Then all they have to do is lay siege to Solitude. They would never be able to take the city, but they can throw fireballs over the walls, and, in a few months, Solitude would be mostly rubble, and they would run out of food, so they would surrender.

Then, they need to send troups to Dragonbridge, which would defend them from The Reach, and just put up border patrols in Hjaalmarch to protect them from Whiterun. The Pale soldiers would protect the Pale's southern border, and the Winterhold troups would continue to lay siege to Windhelm.

Once there is no more resistance in the Hold's that they control, then they would march southwards, and nothing could stop them.

Of course, this would be much easier if they did have the support of The Pale, as they would be able to take Hjaalmarch easier, and they would lose less soldiers in the fight up to the hill to Solitude.

[yodah]

I think that Haafingar would have the best chance at winning. Sure the city is in a great position defense-wise, but they also have the Imperial Legion there. There is also a Fletcher and Blacksmith, so weapons would not be in short supply. Seeing as Solitude is the Empires outpost in Skyrim, there will be many soldiers there.

Attack strategy: First, Solitude would prepare the Imperial Legion, make weapons and armor, and outfit the ships of the East Empire company as warships. The first target would be Morthal, which would fall easily due to its small populace and poor defenses. Next, the Legion could begin a march from Dragon Bridge down into the Reach. Some ships could follow along the Karth River to supply extra troops and supplies. Now, it would be insanity to try and sack Markarth. The city is practically impenetrable. All the Legion would have to do is take control of the stables and mine in front of the city. Then, no one could get out without having to go through the soldiers. Eventually they will run out of food and surrender.

While the Legion is taking the Reach, a separate and smaller force made up of Legion soldiers and Haafingar soldiers could either march to Dawnstar, or take some ships there. Dawnstar will fall relatively easily, unless it has made an alliance with Winterhold. Now in control of the Pale, the Reach, and Hjaalmarch, Haafingar now controls almost half of Skyrim. The silver mines of the Reach will be a good source of money, and a large number of soldiers is under it's command.

From the Reach, soldiers could be sent down south towards Falkreath. Also undefended, it will fall easily. From there, the soldiers can split up and go separate ways around Lake Ilinalta. Now, these soldiers can attack Whiterun from two directions at once. Some troops from Dawnstar could also aid in attacking from the north, if needed. Whiterun would not fall easily, but the city's walls are old and the buildings are made entirely out of wood. The city could be burned, or the walls broken through. Either way, it will eventually fall.

While the attack on Falkreath/Whiterun is occurring, soldiers from Dawnstar could march towards Winterhold. The city itself would fall with little to no resistance, due to it already being severely weakened by the Great Collapse. The College of Winterhold would be difficult to take control of. The best the soldiers could do is destroy the bridge connecting it to Winterhold. The mages will be stranded (with the exception of the escape route via the midden), and not cause much trouble to the soldiers in Winterhold.

Now, I can think of two scenarios in which Haafingar could attack Windhelm. The first would be to have both the soldiers in Whiterun and Winterhold/Dawnstar to march there, and meet up in front of the city. The combined force would be large, but the attack would most likely end in failure, due to Windhelm only having one major entrance, the bridge. The second is to have a few Dunmer infiltrate the city, and pose as citizens. While there, they can persuade the large Dunmer population in the city to rebel, due to mistreatment by Jarl Ulfric. The city would be taken very quickly by the Dunmer's internal attack, who would then pass control over to the soldiers of Haafingar.

Now only one city remains, Riften. Seeing as Haafingar is now in control of all of Skyrim save the Rift, they can send almost all of their available soldiers to take it. The forces at Windhelm could begin a march down through Eastmarch, eventually capturing Shor's Stone. The soldiers at Whiterun could march south through Riverwood and Helgen, and then cut through the mountains from there on the road. Once in the Rift, they could capture Ivarstead. Now both forces would march towards Riften, one approaching from the south, the other from the north. The only city left, Riften might just surrender. If not, the city will breached from both gates and taken easily.



To long, didn't read: Haafingar wins.

[Masked Pillow]

Adding on from my idea that I posted two posts back.

The soldiers posted in Haafingar and Hjaalmarch, other than the ones on border patrol would march down to Dragonsbridge, where an army from The Reach would have amassed. After a large battle of the Dragonsbridge, the Solitude/Morthal troups would win, because they would have slightly more soldiers, because the Reach army would've lost some men due to Forsworn attacks, and there would be more mages from Winterhold in the northern army, so would desimate the troups.

The northern army would march unhindered through the Reach as the Reach army would've killed the Fprsworn army along the roads. When at Markarth, they would simply leave two mages and a small group of soldiers. The mages would raise some kind of barrier, and the troups would be there to defend the mages from any wildlife or hidden soldiers.

The army would march to Dawnstar where them and the Pale soldiers would march south to attack Whiterun. Now, Whiterun would prove a problem. Their army is quite large and has good mobility, so they would've set up some border defense. The northern army would need to concentrate themselves and punch a whole through these, which should not be too difficult, but they would lose some good soldiers.

After defeating the border defenses, the soldiers still placed on the Hjaalmarch border can join the army in the siege of Whiterun. This will prove difficult, as there is only one way in, but the walls are crumbling and the houses are made of wood. While the main army are attacking Whiterun, two smaller groups will head off to Rorikstead and Riverwood, and a slightly larger force would go and take Falkreath.

After a few months, Whiterun woul've fallen. 2 thirds of the army would go and attack Windhelm with the Winterhold army, and the Falkreath/ Riverwood/ Rorikstead/ remaining third of the army would lay siege to Riften.

Windhelm would be difficult to capture, as it's made out of stone, but it doesn't have an unending supply of food, so it will surrender eventually.

The army would then travel to Riften, and Riften would surrender, as the whole of Skyrim is attacking it.

[Da_BossMaN69]

2 mages and a small army, thats your battle plan for laying seige to Markarth? That would fail in minutes, again you guys are abusing the mage=gods ideal. A volley of arrows will be all it takes to kill those two mages, theres no spell we know of that makes a physical shield, other than oakflesh/stoneflesh/etc.

Secondly you're making an army of three holds, this is about each hold on their own, and if alliances are made they can't just be what you feel is best, you need to back that up with reasons as to why they wouldn't just arbitrarily join Solitude.

Yodah, the legion is not in this war that's the whole point of the thread, its civil war without Imperials vs Stormcloaks.

No the problem with your strategy is you make the first big mistake to attack the Reach, they're locked in, you should have little worry about them. In fact by the time its takes you to march on them, Whiterun's defenses will be up and running, so you'll have to get through them there, and then attack them at fort greymoor before actually you lay seige to Whiterun.

Markarth is defended well, it has one of the best defenses, you attack them, and you're in for a lengthy seige, they won't fall easily.

But the scenario is we use what we're given. This means no Torygg, only Elisif, and the stormcloaks won't rise as easily because there's no legion, who can he point the finger at and say are the enemies? His fellow brothers in the holds west? No one from Riften would buy that, except for the overzealous, his rebellion would be harder to start but nonetheless start in Dawnstar/Winterhold.

So the only capable leaders militarily is Balgruuf,Igmund, and Ulfric. Balgruud is a leader, with him and Kodlak leading your army you have the best strategists in the war. They'll make full use of every fort in Whiterun, so you can't simply march foward.

Lastly I leave you guys with this understand the navy will only work for Solitude and Windhelm the rivers are too shallow/narrow to send them in, so honestly they're only use would be in defense.

[Masked Pillow]

I'm making an army of four holds, actually. I believe that Winterhold and The Pale would form an alliance, because neither sides can afford to waste men attacking/defending the mountain passes, and The Pale would benefit greatly, as they get an army of mages.

If they can create spells like Ebonyflesh and Wards, then it stands to reason that mages would be able to cast some kind of barrier. Lets also not forget Wall of Flames. Anything passing through that would be instantly incinerated.

Why wouldn't the forces of Hjaalmarch and Haafingar fight for the northern army? They are under their control now, so they either willingly fight, or are forced into it.

I said that the army would get into smaller boats. I know that large ships would never make it to Morthal. A navy would work in Dawnstar too, and a small port can be set up near Winterhold.

[Da_BossMaN69]

If you're making general assumptions like that then I could easily say that magic doesn't harm them, since they can be masters of block and have elemental protection through their shield.

See how ridiculous it is to add gameplay. Mages aren't gods, And firewalls won't be 50 ft high walls of fire, they're like the size of a small campfire, and in the game magicka is like fatigue. You can't use it 24/7 all the time. It takes time and energy to cast spells, so mages can't just be up and running 24/7 like warriors they need rest or else they'll break.

If mages were as strong as even one acts like they are, how is it the Thalmor could be defeated by the Redguards? All they're wizards couldn't handle resistance from some 'measely' warriors? How can hagravens be killed in many of the books I've read by warriors, oh yeah it said in passage the spell hurt, but he shrugged it off and then stabbed her.

Magic is relative just as strength, the stronger the wizard the stronger the spell. So you're pitting a college primarily involved in learning magic not fighting with magic against warriors who have years of battle experience? Not realistic the mages aren't plentiful enough or strong enough to hold their own effectively or make a difference on the battle field.

The archers would have a field day on this 'siege' of yours, then the soldiers would close in on you from the mountains and wreak havoc on them.

So during those breaks you snipe them with your archers, secondly the college has at max 300 mages, thats not enough to defeat holds with around an army of thousands, 10 at the max for larger citites like Whiterun/Solititude.

Secondly, Dawnstar hates the Empire so theres no way they'd join Solitude.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

I think that Haafingar would have the best chance at winning. Sure the city is in a great position defense-wise, but they also have the Imperial Legion there. There is also a Fletcher and Blacksmith, so weapons would not be in short supply. Seeing as Solitude is the Empires outpost in Skyrim, there will be many soldiers there.

Attack strategy: First, Solitude would prepare the Imperial Legion, make weapons and armor, and outfit the ships of the East Empire company as warships. The first target would be Morthal, which would fall easily due to its small populace and poor defenses. Next, the Legion could begin a march from Dragon Bridge down into the Reach. Some ships could follow along the Karth River to supply extra troops and supplies. Now, it would be insanity to try and sack Markarth. The city is practically impenetrable. All the Legion would have to do is take control of the stables and mine in front of the city. Then, no one could get out without having to go through the soldiers. Eventually they will run out of food and surrender.

While the Legion is taking the Reach, a separate and smaller force made up of Legion soldiers and Haafingar soldiers could either march to Dawnstar, or take some ships there. Dawnstar will fall relatively easily, unless it has made an alliance with Winterhold. Now in control of the Pale, the Reach, and Hjaalmarch, Haafingar now controls almost half of Skyrim. The silver mines of the Reach will be a good source of money, and a large number of soldiers is under it's command.

From the Reach, soldiers could be sent down south towards Falkreath. Also undefended, it will fall easily. From there, the soldiers can split up and go separate ways around Lake Ilinalta. Now, these soldiers can attack Whiterun from two directions at once. Some troops from Dawnstar could also aid in attacking from the north, if needed. Whiterun would not fall easily, but the city's walls are old and the buildings are made entirely out of wood. The city could be burned, or the walls broken through. Either way, it will eventually fall.

While the attack on Falkreath/Whiterun is occurring, soldiers from Dawnstar could march towards Winterhold. The city itself would fall with little to no resistance, due to it already being severely weakened by the Great Collapse. The College of Winterhold would be difficult to take control of. The best the soldiers could do is destroy the bridge connecting it to Winterhold. The mages will be stranded (with the exception of the escape route via the midden), and not cause much trouble to the soldiers in Winterhold.

Now, I can think of two scenarios in which Haafingar could attack Windhelm. The first would be to have both the soldiers in Whiterun and Winterhold/Dawnstar to march there, and meet up in front of the city. The combined force would be large, but the attack would most likely end in failure, due to Windhelm only having one major entrance, the bridge. The second is to have a few Dunmer infiltrate the city, and pose as citizens. While there, they can persuade the large Dunmer population in the city to rebel, due to mistreatment by Jarl Ulfric. The city would be taken very quickly by the Dunmer's internal attack, who would then pass control over to the soldiers of Haafingar.

Now only one city remains, Riften. Seeing as Haafingar is now in control of all of Skyrim save the Rift, they can send almost all of their available soldiers to take it. The forces at Windhelm could begin a march down through Eastmarch, eventually capturing Shor's Stone. The soldiers at Whiterun could march south through Riverwood and Helgen, and then cut through the mountains from there on the road. Once in the Rift, they could capture Ivarstead. Now both forces would march towards Riften, one approaching from the south, the other from the north. The only city left, Riften might just surrender. If not, the city will breached from both gates and taken easily.



To long, didn't read: Haafingar wins.

This is largely what I had in mind when I made my post a few pages back. The only changes I would make would be to make use of the Reachmen in securing control of the Reach's countryside and enjoy safe passage for Haafingar's troops.

Morthal, Dawnstar and Falkreath would all easily fall to an assault. Haafingar has the ships and the water routes to reach these areas quickly and take them. These three holds, plus the Reach, would equal Haafingar's growing possessions having the most centralised military equipment production facilities, by far the great revenue and a large population from which to recruit soldiers.

[TiberSeptimsGrandma]

I'm making an army of four holds, actually. I believe that Winterhold and The Pale would form an alliance, because neither sides can afford to waste men attacking/defending the mountain passes, and The Pale would benefit greatly, as they get an army of mages.

Where are you getting the idea that the College would join in on this? What makes you think the Jarl would even let them if they wanted to? Jarl Whateverhisnameis goes on lengthy rants about the mages up at the College because the college was one of few parts of Winterhold that didn't fall into the sea with the great collapse. The Jarl has a lot of pride, seeing as he is a Nord, and he would never let the mages who he thinks sznk most of Winterhold into the sea help his hold out.

[TiberSeptimsGrandma]

But honestly, now that I think about it, the Thalmor would most likely take advantage of the civil war and pull any remaining forces in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil out and try to "quell" the fighting in Skyrim. And by quell I mean commit genocide.