Why the High Elves..?

[PsijicOrder]

Good for you!

[JoeyDestructo]

while I hate the Thalmor I gotta admit......

Im doing the Northwatch Keep quest, and at level 42, the Guards there make awesome Dead Thralls ;P

[Tarquin Dynatus]

The High Elves are high achievers. That much is obvious. In Oblivion their genius and energy produced such enemies as Mannimarco, Mankar Camoran and Umbacano (whom I suspect of having Ayleid ancestry). Such such energy and genius also produced men like Sinderion and High Chancellor Ocato (who did a superb job before, during and after the Oblivion Crisis).

They aren't necessarily good or bad as a race, but they are highly capable at something when they put their mind to it.

At the time the second Thalmor came to power, the situation for the Altmeri was something like this. They are the most sophistcated and learned culture in all of Tamriel, they are Tamriel's first civilisation, their most talented magic users and most talented sailors. Since Tiber Septim had come along their trans-Abacean confederation had been dismantled, they had been invaded and had a super weapon used against them, A Dunmer queen had been put on the throne of Firsthold with the help of the King of Worms, and they were required to pay regular tithes to the empire and they had nearly been conquered by the Pyandoneans who had been invited to invade them by a Septim Queen (Potema). And things just went from bad to worse. Their capitol along with their most treasured historical site (Crystal Tower) were utterly destroyed during the Oblivion Crisis when the Septims failed to relight the Dragon Fires. At the beginning of the Fourth Era we have a diminshed and devastated nation in place of a once proud and noble one. They have lost their power, prestige, some wealth and much of their heritage to an empire which on the whole has done so poor a job of defending them against external threats, even though the noble Altmeri have for centuries kept all of Tamriel safe from the encroachment of the predatory Sload and Pyandoneans.

At this point the Altmer must have asked themselves why they should have any faith in the Empire which had to clearly failed them. From their perspective, Summerset had clearly been better off without the Imperials. They could also look back at the First Era, when the Altmer only required nominal acknowledgement of their superiority in Tamriel and were satisfied with it - which was far less exacting than Imperial rule. Clearly, all of Tamriel had been a more stable place in the days of Merethic superiority. Facing the beginning of the Fourth Era with nothing to lose, the Altmer decided to take matters into their own hands. Through a mixture of intricate planning, ingenius subterfuge, carefully honed magical abilities and clever diplomacy, the Altmer as a single province managed to detach and integrate two from the empire, possibly encourage the loss of two more (Black Marsh, Morrowind) through diplomacy, detach another (Hammerfell) and devastate the main one (Cyrodiil). They punched well and truly above their weight.

In Skyrim the Thalmor are clearly there to benefit the Aldmeri Dominon by prolonging the civil war and sowing civil strife within Skyrim by driving a wedge between the Nords and Imperials. They are purposefully arrogant, irritable and confrontational because being so makes it more likely that the local Nords will come to resent this and turn their wrath on the Imperials. From the Dominion's perspective, this is absolutely ideal. Another war is coming, and they want the Empire to be as divided as possible. Unpleasant as they may be, the Thalmor are acting pragmatically.

But then you have other brilliant, talented and dedicated Altmer who have nothing to do with the Thalmor and are on the whole very likable. Nurelion the brilliant alchemist in Windhelm, the level headed and talented mage Faralda, the penitent Altmer battlemage Runil and the tough Legate Fasendil - all evidence of the much more noble side of the Altmer.

In Skyrim you see the worst of the Altmer, because the Thalmor are there to do as much damage as possible and sow as much civil strife as they can. The Thalmor themselves are the reaction of the Altmeri to centuries of misery, disappointment, underachievement and near annihilation. Let's not forget that.

[OblivionDuruza]

I like that explanation Tarquin, because it makes a lot of sense. I've always been of the mind that the Thalmor are real go-getters, and that they've done a lot for the Mer in reclaiming the old Aldmeri Dominion, and are moving to take back the Empire of Mer of the Merethic Era. Of course this isn't a good thing for the Empire or for Men, but it is for the Mer. I'm not a huge believer of the propaganda some people use to claim that there are many Mer who oppose the Dominion.

[Syrkin]

Excellent point of view Tarquin. Being deliberately antagonistic is a skill I put to use in college during team competition events, but I hadn't thought of that in this case. I might say that I doubt Bethesda put that much thought into it, but I haven't taken all the time to read every bit of lore, so I can't back that up.

For my own Role Playing aspect of it, wood elves live deep in the forest and are suspicious of everyone, and xenophobic to the extreme. So I'll stay with my original intent to kill all the Thalmor I find. =)

[necro7788]

I dont think they have. They always seem to act like they are better than every other race and the Thalmor take it to a new extreme but i dont think thats because they are high elves they are just jerks. Besides the Thalmor the other Altmer dont seem that bad just a little stuck up at times

[Berzerker]

I'm just suprised that the Dark Elves are actually less dickish then the High Elves.

[Akiraka]

I'm just suprised that the Dark Elves are actually less dickish then the High Elves.

Obviously you've never been to Morrowind :p

[OblivionDuruza]

The Dunmer aren't as bad as people make out, just earn a bit of Reputation or complete varying stages of the Main Quest, or ascend through a Great House or Guild and they're actually fairly quick to accept you. The Dunmer have no real reservations about race, etc. They're just weary of strangers, but not so much you have to assimilate and not so much that you need to fight with them against the Empire to earn their trust.

[Incarnal]

I'd say the High Elves are the badguys here because I hate them, and I've hated them for a long time. I even went so far as to kill every single one in Oblivion with my most evil character. They're such jerks they even make the Dunmer seem bearable by comparison.

[OblivionDuruza]

In what way are the Altmer, 'suck jerks' though? It's all well and good to hate them, but why? I honestly do not understand why the Altmer should attract more hate than others, there are plenty of Altmeri characters who have been nothing but good. Think of Galerion, Arquen, Henantier, Carahil, High Chancellor Ocato, Sinderion and others, are they really all such bad people?

[Jeff]

None of them are in Skyrim. Using this theory, then with all of the Great German's of the Past, we should forgive the Nazi's what they have done?

Not all Germans were Nazi, just as not all Altmer (or Elves) are Thalmor. Do people hate all Americans because of the KKK?

Just because you like Elves, does not mean that all elves are good. You can ignore what they are doing (in your game play), but it does not mean that they are not doing it. I am sure that the three Thalmor Judicars are talking the Nord to a dinner party.

Would you have supported the Nazi's because Han's was your friend?

Sorry, but in the Skyrim game that I am playing, the Thalmor are kidnapping, torturing, and (probably) killing Nord's... much like the Nazi's did with the Jew's.

If I stop one of the Thalmore, and ask them what they are doing, and say that people can worship who they want, they attack me... I do not attack them first.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
As for "Why the High Elves": Alduin is the main Antagonist

It is not like Skyrim makes the Thalmor out to be the "ONLY" bad guy/girl. Depending on how you chose to play the game:
- You can play a Stormcloak, and the Empire is the Enemy.
- You can play the Empire, and the Stormcloaks are the Enemy.
- You can play the good hearted Hero, that does not like to see people kidnapped from their homes, tourtured, and killed.
- You can play the Thalmor Sympathizer, and ingnore all of the Nords being kidnapped to be tourtured, and killed.

[OblivionDuruza]

And I'm not saying the Thalmor are not an antagonist in Skyrim, but that there are a number of other Altmer in Skyrim that are more than amiable, for instance, Quaranir, Faralda, Aicantar, and even Ondolemar if you'll let him.

And as for, 'why the Altmer' have been given this mantle, part of it is Bethesda needing to find a suitable opposing force to Man, and another part is that fans have turned on the Altmer without much thought and with limited justification.

[Jeff]

Give it a rest already. People do not have to play the game the same way you do, or see it how you do. Read what I typed, not what you want it to say, so that you can continue to "Defend the Downtrodden Elves".

The High Elves are not given any Mantle at all. The High Elves are not being made out to the the Bad Guy/girl.

Alduin is the Main (quest) Antagonist, not the Elves, High Elves, or even the Thalmor.

There are two choices for the Civil War: Stormcloaks, or Empire.

There is no Quest, whatsoever, which makes the Thalmor out to be the bad guy/girl. The fact that there are High Elf NPC's that are likable, shows that Beth did not intend for them to be the bad guy/girl. As for the Thalmor, that is up to the person who is playing the game to decide for themselves. Which they have evey right to chose how they want.

EDIT:

Spoiler:

There is one Quest, where you have to rescue Granny Gray-manes Son from the Thalmor Prision, where he is chained to a wall.

[MARS]

I agree with Jeff, especially on his last point. High Elves have always been arrogant, it just became more apparent with the Thalmor's rise to power. The Altmer have always been the way they are now.

[OblivionDuruza]

A number of threads and posts beg to differ with the assertion that the Altmer have not been made out as 'bad guys', at least by members of the community. For example: Hater of the Thalmor and a numer of posts that extend further than hate for the organisation, to hate of all Altmer and Mer in general, and posts in many other threads like the following,

OR there is something innately evil about Elves.

In addition the Main Quest, particularly Diplomatic Immunity and Delphine, are fairly biased, and intended to be so, at least IMO, to paint the Blades as less 'good' than they once were, and more bitter, as is the whole situation with Paarthurnax.

Specifically, you stated that none of the NPCs I mentioned were in Skyrim, in response to a previous post, so I responded by naming some that are in Skyrim, if you wanted me to give it a rest then why respond in the first place?

Like the OP, I'm not thrilled by the way the community has turned on the Altmer and Mer in general, and I do not believe it was Bethesda's intent to paint Mer as evil.

[Jeff]

I am not thrilled that people think that they have to always defend "whatever someone mentions they do not like". It has become just as annoying as those who are constantly complaining. I mean really... how is complaining about people complaining any better?

If you do not like to read what others are saying, then why post, and keep the conversation going.

Most of the What do you "hate/not like" topics would die a quick death, if not for those people trying to defend it, keeping that topic at the top, and begging for more replies. In most cases, trying to defend something, usually tends to make the "hate/dilike" even stronger.

What is the best defense for Trolls: Do not Feed the Trolls.

[SAMIAM]

Aren't the Psijics High Elves who hate the Thalmor? I'm confused, are you mad because people don't like to play high elves? or are you just saying that are seen in bad light because of the Thalmor? Well bring up the Psijics then who seem to be a bunch of powerful enlightened Altmer.

[Anonymous98223]

I like some of the High Elves, I'm not biased towards them or obsessed or anything, but thier an interesting race and make the TES all the more interesting. But I hate the Thalmor. You can't, however, judge an entire race just because one organization which is mainly made up of that race has commited atrocities. Its not right. And arrogance is a trait you can probably find in all races, just look at some of the snobby Nordic clans.

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

I kind of think that the high elves have been degraded. No, not because the Thalmor give them a bad name, but because virtually all high elves in the game are Thalmor. And those few that are in fact not Thalmor are usually ACCUSED of being with the Thalmor.

Bethesda has painted the Thalmor as the universal faction to hate. Such a shame; I always loved high elves.

[BrothaDesmund]

Well the main "jerks" of SKyrim are the Thalmor, and I do agree that they've been kind of vilified. The only "good" altmers in the game, are basically the Psijics, who barely even appear. While the Thalmor are basically the vast majority of high elves in Skyrim, and they're all arrogant and snobbish, not to mention they're virtually blamed for every single misfortune skyrim encounters.

[Ryuhza]

Wasn't Mankar Camoran a high elf?

And Mannimarco, the King of Worms?

[soda popinski]

From what I understand from the lore, Summerset Isle has always been kind of seperate from the rest of Tamriel. I don't think they allow the other races there, which is why I think it would be hard for Beth to make a game there, although they could do something where most of tamriel was reunited and then invaded Summerset Isle

[Iamgoofball]

It might be because they act like you are an ant they intend to squish all the time.

[Zero-Sum]

You're totally right man. Pfft. Who cares if the Thalmor want to undo creation and erase mankind from every Possibility possible from the interplay of Anu and Padomay (essentially doing what Alduin would've done - as 'eating' the world would've caused it to restart and go back to the first stroke of Anu and Paddy, except even worse - so the Thalmor are even worse than the Nordic Harbinger of the Apocalypse), all because they want to "retake" the alleged godhood that Lorkhan allegedly stole from them? Pfft. The Thalmor are totally alright in my book. If Ulfric is Hitler, then who are the Thalmor? Because ain't nobody moar genocidal than the Thalmor. Genocide is cool, bro. Innocent lives, pfft. Creation's gonna be undone anyway, so why not sooner than later?