Who is Talos?

[Reven]

What I cannot understand yet is how one truly reaches CHIM since it is pretty much the same as Zero-Summing, in both the conclusion "I exist in this universe, but this universe is just a dream, therefore I do not exist" must be reached. Is it by accepting that reality is just a dream that CHIM is attained?

[Zero-Sum]

What I cannot understand yet is how one truly reaches CHIM since it is pretty much the same as Zero-Summing, in both the conclusion "I exist in this universe, but this universe is just a dream, therefore I do not exist" must be reached. Is it by accepting that reality is just a dream that CHIM is attained?

Zero-summing is when you realize, "I exist, but I do not exist, because all of this is just someone's dream," and you reach the conclusion 1 + -1 = 0. But if you can accept the fact that everything is just a result of the Godhead without going insane and you can still keep your individuality as a self-aware portion of the Godhead, and in spite of all the logic, you eventually reach the conclusion that 1 + -1 = 1, and thus you attain CHIM and become one with the Godhead.

With that said, I'd like to ask this: WHAT IN OBLIVION DID THE DEVS SMOKE WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THIS AND WHERE CAN I GET SOME?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

What I cannot understand yet is how one truly reaches CHIM since it is pretty much the same as Zero-Summing, in both the conclusion "I exist in this universe, but this universe is just a dream, therefore I do not exist" must be reached. Is it by accepting that reality is just a dream that CHIM is attained?

Zero-summing is when you realize, "I exist, but I do not exist, because all of this is just someone's dream," and you reach the conclusion 1 + -1 = 0. But if you can accept the fact that everything is just a result of the Godhead without going insane and you can still keep your individuality as a self-aware portion of the Godhead, and in spite of all the logic, you eventually reach the conclusion that 1 + -1 = 1, and thus you attain CHIM and become one with the Godhead.

With that said, I'd like to ask this: WHAT IN OBLIVION DID THE DEVS SMOKE WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THIS AND WHERE CAN I GET SOME?

I think the lore writers responsible for these ideas were using very old Earth religious concepts, actually. There's a lot of similar concepts in ancient Hinduism...the Egg of Time for instance, and Kalpas, the Godheadetc. All these are mentioned in Skyrim and background TES Lore and are taken directly from human traditions going back 9000 years or more.

[Zero-Sum]

What I cannot understand yet is how one truly reaches CHIM since it is pretty much the same as Zero-Summing, in both the conclusion "I exist in this universe, but this universe is just a dream, therefore I do not exist" must be reached. Is it by accepting that reality is just a dream that CHIM is attained?

Zero-summing is when you realize, "I exist, but I do not exist, because all of this is just someone's dream," and you reach the conclusion 1 + -1 = 0. But if you can accept the fact that everything is just a result of the Godhead without going insane and you can still keep your individuality as a self-aware portion of the Godhead, and in spite of all the logic, you eventually reach the conclusion that 1 + -1 = 1, and thus you attain CHIM and become one with the Godhead.

With that said, I'd like to ask this: WHAT IN OBLIVION DID THE DEVS SMOKE WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THIS AND WHERE CAN I GET SOME?

I think the lore writers responsible for these ideas were using very old Earth religious concepts, actually. There's a lot of similar concepts in ancient Hinduism...the Egg of Time for instance, and Kalpas, the Godheadetc. All these are mentioned in Skyrim and background TES Lore and are taken directly from human traditions going back 9000 years or more.

True true true. For example, the whole "If everyone believes it it is true" Tulpa thing is used in TES lore. Hence why the Thalmor are trying to render Talos mortal through their propaganda and brainwashery. The Talos Mistake. pfft. Stupid Thalmor.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Talos Mistake was written by an Imperial, and not just by race, I might remind you, albeit most probably an Imperial who was attempting to suck up to the Thalmor, but the point is that while it might be likely that the Thalmor were involved or even responsible, it's not a forgone conclusion.

He thinks the idea will be the Thalmor atack before someone wins the war IIRC

Not true, per se. I am more of the mind that Bethesda will have something planned, pertaining to DLC, that will in some way ameliorate the situation between the Empire and Stormcloaks, possibly unifying them, and negate to an extent the impact of the Civil War. Rather than one side winning and the other loosing, which would merely alienate a half of Bethesda's fanbase, seeing as most of what I have seen has the two sides fairly evenly supported by the public.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I think what you guys all forget is this, in TES not one single thing is mortal. All life, in Mundus is simply a spirit that is trapped in that specific plane, thus was the trick of Shor. He did not create nor did the other eight, they simply weaved the spirits together to create Mundus, this much is made clear through the Altmer beliefs and the myths that talk about creation.

Because of this all one spirit has to do to ascend to Godhood and be one with the Godhead is gain a special something whether that is power/knowledge/etc is unknown. All three seemed to have led one spirit to godhood, knowledge through Tiber Septim, Power for the Champion. The easiest way for a spirit to gain power is to simply gain it through another God, that is why I think in the series Shor is really the best God.

He offers divinity to the lesser spirits to those who are willing to accept it, something the Altmer hate since they believe they have a right to reach it and can by themselves.

Akatosh also has shown us he can give up his power to any being, he did so for Martin and Alduin, both became immensely powerful. Martin is Akatosh,but not in the way we know it as Sheogoraths change of power, he simply joined him and was one with Akatosh. Both Sheogorath and every NPC say this at the end of Oblivion, check the wiki.

Godhood is very much attainable to anyone and everyone, so long as they have the power and determination. So its best to imagine Mundus as an illusion tied together by the godhead and the 'weaving of spirits' by Shor.

This is why I believe a future dlc will deal with the Dragonborn joining one of three gods, Akatosh,Shor, or Talos, what the plot will be to this I don't know, maybe it will be to become a God to stop Alduin permanently, not through death but by reducing his spirit. Or killing another God (Akatosh?) since he was a dragon.

[Zero-Sum]

On a related note to the banning of Talos worship, when the Cyrodiils successfully revolted against the Ayleids, one of the terms of their peace was that the Cyrodiils had to end their Shezarr worship. Oh you elves, always trying to unravel Mundus.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Talos is a thinly veiled Shezarrine as it is..that's how he slipped Shezarr back into the pantheon. I think the Thalmor saw right through that one, though. Hence the comment in the First PGE "There will be no compromise with the Septim Empire."

[Da_BossMaN69]

Talos is a thinly veiled Shezarrine as it is..that's how he slipped Shezarr back into the pantheon. I think the Thalmor saw right through that one, though. Hence the comment in the First PGE "There will be no compromise with the Septim Empire."

You know what I think this question is the real one we need to be asking ourselves.

Is Talos, Tiber Septim, Artucus, etc, all really just Shor himself in mortal form like some the Elder Scrolls version of Jesus Christ?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Talos is a thinly veiled Shezarrine as it is..that's how he slipped Shezarr back into the pantheon. I think the Thalmor saw right through that one, though. Hence the comment in the First PGE "There will be no compromise with the Septim Empire."

You know what I think this question is the real one we need to be asking ourselves.

Is Talos, Tiber Septim, Artucus, etc, all really just Shor himself in mortal form like some the Elder Scrolls version of Jesus Christ?

No..not exactly like that. It's an easy parallel to make but the idea has more in common with certain far east ideas of perpetual reincarnation. Ever since Shor died he's been coming back over and over. He seems to get more powerful each time, though. With Talos he actually managed to solidify his status as a Divine, something he hadn't enjoyed since the Merethic Era. This is critical to the power of the Human empires, since he's always been the champion of men.

[Da_BossMaN69]

So since Shor was absent in Sovngarde does that mean its possible that the dragon born is actually a Shezzarine, and now if thats the case can a shezzarine actually achieve CHIM to become Shor fully?

[JoeyDestructo]

So since Shor was absent in Sovngarde does that mean its possible that the dragon born is actually a Shezzarine, and now if thats the case can a shezzarine actually achieve CHIM to become Shor fully?

not without his heart

[Wolfie]

So since Shor was absent in Sovngarde does that mean its possible that the dragon born is actually a Shezzarine, and now if thats the case can a shezzarine actually achieve CHIM to become Shor fully?

Mu guess would be its there to make you wonder if Shor could handle Aduin ro not, after all if you where shor i dont think you w3ould have to prove your self, as you done it a tousand times over and you own tie place.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Shor can't be whole without his Heart. Of course, it's no longer bound with enchantments under Red Mountain. I think there's probably still some kind of process we don't know about, though. Shor's rotting body segments are still in the night sky. We know them as the moons Masser and Secunda. He obviously hasn't fully reincarnated yet since his body is still in the sky.

[Da_BossMaN69]

But then how is he able to keep Sovngarde afloat or even existing, I thought the whole point of realms were that each specific world/plane/etc was bound to their ruler, Daedra or Aedra, so if he's not full how is it still standing? Or is he that strong that the place can still stand with out him?

Is Shor even Lorkhan at all? I mean if we still see him as Masser (or whichever moon he is) than that means that's his physical form right, as can only be understood by mortals, so how is he it he can exist in another mortal as a Shezzarine.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Maybe he's not Lorkhan..or maybe he's an aspect, like Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh. We're still trying to figure that one out, since he's his son now.

Or maybe he is. Gods can manifest physically while also being in their own realms. For instance, several of the Divines manifest physically in Morrowind. Talos, Mara and Zenithar all have avatars in that game, and yet if you prayed at one of their shrines even while their avatars are present you'd still receive the blessing. That means they must be able to divide their power somewhat, which is even more impressive since the Divines are "dead" in a way.

[JoeyDestructo]

But then how is he able to keep Sovngarde afloat or even existing, I thought the whole point of realms were that each specific world/plane/etc was bound to their ruler, Daedra or Aedra, so if he's not full how is it still standing? Or is he that strong that the place can still stand with out him?

they are, Shor/Lorkhan was never actually killed, just seperated. the best way I can think to descibe it would be the holy trinity, except the circumstances were forced upon Shor. as far as I can tell his power isbound to Sovngarde, however sovngarde isnt an actual place in Oblivion or Mundus but a part of Aetherius so the problem may be that his power is split between Mundus and Sovngarde <<Speculation

Is Shor even Lorkhan at all? I mean if we still see him as Masser (or whichever moon he is) than that means that's his physical form right, as can only be understood by mortals, so how is he it he can exist in another mortal as a Shezzarine.

Masser is actually in the same plane as Nirn though; Mundus

[Da_BossMaN69]

Oh so basically Shor is just split two ways? His spirtual form in Aehterius, in the specific realm of Sovngarde, and the physical as Masser or any of his shezzarine.

[JoeyDestructo]

Oh so basically Shor is just split two ways? His spirtual form in Aehterius, in the specific realm of Sovngarde, and the physical as Masser or any of his shezzarine.

thats pretty much how I have interpretted it. its seems that a certain power level is required amongst the high beings atleast to be able to have a connection between realms (see Clavicus Vile's daedric quest in skyrim)

[Da_BossMaN69]

Oh so basically Shor is just split two ways? His spirtual form in Aehterius, in the specific realm of Sovngarde, and the physical as Masser or any of his shezzarine.

thats pretty much how I have interpretted it. its seems that a certain power level is required amongst the high beings atleast to be able to have a connection between realms (see Clavicus Vile's daedric quest in skyrim)

You mean as Barbas, right? I was always assumed the two were really one being in the same, but since playing Skyrim I guess not anymore. Or do you mean as in the shezzarine is to Shor as Barbas is to Vile?

[JoeyDestructo]

Oh so basically Shor is just split two ways? His spirtual form in Aehterius, in the specific realm of Sovngarde, and the physical as Masser or any of his shezzarine.

thats pretty much how I have interpretted it. its seems that a certain power level is required amongst the high beings atleast to be able to have a connection between realms (see Clavicus Vile's daedric quest in skyrim)

You mean as Barbas, right? I was always assumed the two were really one being in the same, but since playing Skyrim I guess not anymore. Or do you mean as in the shezzarine is to Shor as Barbas is to Vile?

this; tho CV chooses to seperate his power, Shor's power was ripped apart by the Aedra, and I assume that Shor cant restore his full power between Mundus and Aetherius(sovngarde) because without his heart he cant connect(?) with the other planes....

or somthing along those lines

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Aetherius isn't Sovngarde. Aetherius is the plane of pure magicka that Magnus escaped to. Nobody lives there. People don't go there when they die.

[JoeyDestructo]

Aetherius isn't Sovngarde. Aetherius is the plane of pure magicka that Magnus escaped to. Nobody lives there. People don't go there when they die.

found this the other day.

Aetherius, the Immortal Plane,[1] is thought to be the origin of all magic and arcane arts.[2][3][4] The stars and the sun are thought to be holes into Aetherius left by spirits (notably Magnus) who long ago became dissatisfied with Mundus.[2] It is a common belief that the soul of a dead person, assuming they are not earthbound for some reason, goes to Aetherius, to continue on as a spirit.[5] Aetherius, much like Oblivion, consists of a multitude of realms which serve different purposes, except they are all "of everlasting perfection".[6][7][4] For Nords, their chosen place in Aetherius is called "Sovngarde", the Hall of Valor.[8]
Some souls do not stay in Aetherius, but enter the so-called Dreamsleeve to be recycled.[citation needed] Others become servants to the Daedra in Oblivion.[9][10][11] Aetherius is thought by many to be the home of the Aedric spirits,[12] though very little is actually known as travel to Aetherius is extremely rare.[6] The Magne Ge, or "Star Orphans", who fled Mundus before Convention and created the stars, reside here instead.[citation needed] The Mantellan Crux is a self-contained part of Mundus that was blasted into Aetherius by Zurin Arctus, who used it as the Mantella.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it so. There was a very lengthy thread on the official Bethsoft forums recently about this. I'm sure someone slightly more knowledgeable could tell you exactly why that's a misconception, but right now I have to go to work. Suffice to say, Sovngarde is its own realm, the realm of Shor. Aetherius is something very different. You actually visited it in Daggerfall. It's nothing like Sovngarde.

[JoeyDestructo]

Calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it so. There was a very lengthy thread on the official Bethsoft forums recently about this. I'm sure someone slightly more knowledgeable could tell you exactly why that's a misconception, but right now I have to go to work. Suffice to say, Sovngarde is its own realm, the realm of Shor. Aetherius is something very different. You actually visited it in Daggerfall. It's nothing like Sovngarde.

yeah i know.

there are different pockets of aetherius, like how there are in Oblivion. shor's realm is within aetherius, similar to how sheogoraths is in oblivion