Two teens discuss Skyrim in a games designer-esque manner

[The Dog Whisperer]

I haven't missed the point, I just disagree that it's broken or "unbalanced"- The skill is implemented in a way where it can be abused or used naturally, entirely at the player's discretion.
Intended or not it can't be considered "unbalanced" as there's nothing to "balance" it against except itself. i.e. "Smithing is broken because you can grind it higher than it would be if you level it naturally."

[Spiney]

I haven't missed the point, I just disagree that it's broken or "unbalanced"- The skill is implemented in a way where it can be abused or used naturally, entirely at the player's discretion.
Intended or not it can't be considered "unbalanced" as there's nothing to "balance" it against except itself. i.e. "Smithing is broken because you can grind it higher than it would be if you level it naturally."

Have you played World of Warcraft? In the crafting there, old items you can make don't contribute to continuing in that profession. Think about it in real life, if you make 100 daggers, what would you learn? You'd know how to make a dagger pretty dam well. So in a realistic sense, it's not realistic either. In a game balancing sense, it's unbalanced.

Yes it's at the players own choice, but it wouldn't need to be if it didn't have to be considered one in the first place; if it was balanced.

[CWillio]

Why do I gotta be white?!

We get it, though.. the game's exploits make it not enjoyable to you.. a perfect contribution to the "things you hate about skyrim" thread.

[Spiney]

Why do I gotta be white?!

We get it, though.. the game's exploits make it not enjoyable to you.. a perfect contribution to the "things you hate about skyrim" thread.

Yes I keep referring to the game exploits, but this not only about that.

For calamities sake, this is about Bethesda's games design practices. Do I have to slap it into you, I don't give a Whoopie Goldburg if it's the players choice. Good for you Mr Conscious. I care for the fact that it's there in the first place.

Let me repeat: Here in the first place. Like many of the other imbalances in the game, it's pointing to poor design no matter what way you look at it.

I do enjoy the game, and this was not just a rant at Bethesda, it was to be a discussion of the elements of Skyrim, how they interact in the good and bad and peoples ideas as how they could be balanced. Which is why I ignored all the posts in the first page because the point soared over their head like a Jet Plane.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Have you played World of Warcraft? It's an MMO, including PvP.

Exploits aren't "bad" unless they can be used in some form of competitive/multiplayer gaming. Removing them limits flexibility within a single player game.

Balance needs context, in the context of multiplayer games it's important to stop players from exploiting a mechanic to gain an advantage for little/no effort.
In the context of TES games, which is as far from multiplayer as you can get, it's much less restricted. If Player A has grinded his Smithing to 100 an everything else is under 25 then how is it "unfair" to other players? How does it affect your game?

Robbing someone else's balance design philosophy: Fun vs. Anti-Fun. People can have "fun" grinding Smithing up so they can make godlike characters at lower levels, how exactly is this mechanic "anti-fun" to other players?

[Spiney]

Have you played World of Warcraft? It's an MMO, including PvP.

Exploits aren't "bad" unless they can be used in some form of competitive/multiplayer gaming. Removing them limits flexibility within a single player game.

Balance needs context, in the context of multiplayer games it's important to stop players from exploiting a mechanic to gain an advantage for little/no effort.
In the context of TES games, which is as far from multiplayer as you can get, it's much less restricted. If Player A has grinded his Smithing to 100 an everything else is under 25 then how is it "unfair" to other players? How does it affect your game?

Robbing someone else's balance design philosophy: Fun vs. Anti-Fun. People can have "fun" grinding Smithing up so they can make godlike characters at lower levels, how exactly is this mechanic "anti-fun" to other players?

Risk and Reward. Probably the simplest of techniques to entrance players.

Iron is easy to get, but once you get to Orchish, Ebony and Scale/plate, you have to start venturing around to the unknown to get the resources. There's the risk. The reward is that are able to level up your smithing, towards higher level gear.

PVP/Multiplayer doesn't have to be a matter in this game. Any game can be balanced. It's not as if, for every single player game you can go: "Well we won't thoroughly test this because we'll rely on the players effort to ignore it and make it balanced themselves." Ergo, laziness and poor testing.

[CWillio]

Which is why I ignored all the posts in the first page because the point soared over their head like a Jet Plane.

I think the point is that your ill-defined notion of "unbalanced" is just glib way of saying "no-likey for my bf and me" and it seems to have gone over your own head.. You're giving yourself too much credit; it's more of a nag than a profound criticism. Seriously, there are better points about weaknesses of the game that more people seem to agree on in the "things you hate about skyrim thread."

I've plugged that thread three times now I should be a paid spokesman.

[Spiney]

I think the point is that your ill-defined notion of "unbalanced" is just glib way of saying "no-likey for my bf and me" and it seems to have gone over your own head.. You're giving yourself too much credit; it's more of a nag than a profound criticism. Seriously, there are better points about weaknesses of the game that more people seem to agree on in the "things you hate about skyrim thread."

I've plugged that thread three times now I should be a paid spokesman.

Oh for petes sake.

Shut up about that thread, shut up about myself not liking aspects of the game, Shut up and stay on topic.

Screw it, I'ma get a mod to lock this.

[CWillio]

Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly

IBTL

[Spiney]

Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly

IBTL

Shut up and get on the point.

I was talking about games design, I was talking about how the game was made. So quit avoiding the point because you can't stand Bethesda being questioned.

Hell, if you were to rebuke on topic, I wouldn't mind that, but if you keep circling around it I'll just report you for being off topic.

[The Dog Whisperer]

The risk/reward doesn't need to be concrete, though. A concrete risk/reward (As in some risk that all players have to take) is the aim for balance in MP games.
You can only gain access to this Epic Armour that increases your PvP stats by 10% through this quest. [Non-tradeable]

You don't need to make players grind for [reward] in a single player game, but you can leave the option in. That's the case here, you can "not" grind yourself a full set of Daedric because you don't want to, but the option is still there for them to do it if they want to.

PvP/Multiplayer doesn't matter, but that's why the game is balanced. "Balance" implies there are things to weigh against each other, when all there is here to weigh up is what you think is right in your game.
More options makes things more accessible to more people, and there is no "anti-fun" factor to detract from other people's play because they're not affected by each other's games.

[Arch-Mage Matt]

Locked upon author's request. Spiney, that's kind of what always happens when you criticize a game among its fanboys. Other people... don't be such smartasses.