Two teens discuss Skyrim in a games designer-esque manner

[Spiney]

Alright, the boyfriend I somehow tangentially started talking about Skyrim's features. Read on will you:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Spiney: and why is Solitaire so addictive
Spiney: theres an i in there somewhere
Simon: Because the game gives illusion of "Winning" or "Losing" which is quite satisfying when you do "Win"
Spiney: man, you get into things too deep
Spiney: takes away the miracles :P
Simon: im just in a deep mood at the moment, sorry x3
Spiney: oh its fine x3
Simon: I honestly think, out of all electronic games in the world, there is none as perfect as Pong.
Spiney: too simple
Spiney: but then again
Spiney: todays games can be just as simple
Spiney: if flashy
Simon: *shakes head*
Simon: Pong was simple, it doesn't overload the senses, it can require skill, or even just for a casual player, it can be multiplayer, you can play it on just about any device, it is FUN despite its simplicity.
Spiney: it is
Spiney: but I wanna expand on something
Spiney: games today are too simple
Spiney: I always see features pitched that really shoulda just been something on the side
Spiney: like shouts in Skyrim
Spiney: big fanfare
Spiney: boring as a turd on the side of the road
Simon: thats a different kind of simplicity though, that's more focusing on a game-play mechanic that is... well... just there.
Simon: By simplicity i mean
Simon: stripped down
Spiney: shoosh
Simon: no flashy graphics
Spiney: Im talking about something different here
Spiney: stop typing and let me finsh
Spiney: okay
Spiney: what I mean is
Spiney: they pitch this big grandure features
Spiney: when in the long run, they become repetitive and stale
Spiney: which is the problem, they sell it to you, and then you get overly disappointed when it fails
Spiney: Example, Shouts in skyrim
Simon: Right, the shouts are just another 'module' to magic. the main focus is connecting it with storyline, the story had to be driven somehow, and it needed some connection to the player, but they didn't want it to break the gameplay balance, hence it being 'stale', its just like anything else you have.
Spiney: well yeah
Spiney: but theyre like
Spiney: YOU CAN PUSH PEOPLE
Spiney: and when you play it
Spiney: its like "Well yeah, what else?"
Spiney: so you get disappointed
Simon: Too much in skyrim was implemented badly, it just seems like random "Blobs" of mechanics hastily stitched and padded together.
Spiney: yep
Spiney: and let me draw your attention to a different game
Spiney: Beyond Good and Evil
Simon: Don't think ive played that, but go on :3
Spiney: now on the cover it tells you about taking photos to upsurp a dictatorship
Spiney: which is a novel mechanic, taking photos
Spiney: though when you get into the game, you also find out you can take photos of animals for money
Spiney: so you're like "Well that's cool and novel."
Spiney: and carry it out throughout the game
Spiney: then you also get a hovercraft
Spiney: and then eventually a spaceship
Spiney: none of it overly pitched to you, just there
Spiney: and you enjoy them as they come
Simon: <i wrote about 3-4 paragraphs here, but i am tired and i decided to delete them, hahaha oh boy.>
Spiney: Tee hee, summary?
Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly
Spiney: and part of it was in the presentation
Spiney: man, Im getting the hang of games design :P
Simon: The whole thing where you do a speciall kill on someone
Simon: and it goes slowmo
Simon: cinematic
Spiney: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
Simon: they did even that wrong
Spiney: theres no skill to it
Simon: it was spammed to hell, and while the first one may have made you special, after you realise its just something that happens during normal attacks, and it happens every 2nd-5th hostile...
Spiney: last hostile in groups
Spiney: which is why when you face one guy, you almost always do a finisher on them
Simon: OH
Simon: and there is a shields perk
Simon: that makes power attacks go in slowmo
Simon: so you can block them
Simon: totally breaks any immersion
Spiney: ES games have a habit of doing that
Spiney: just wait till the CS comes out
Spiney: FINISHER REMOVER MOD
Spiney: MOD THAT BALANCES SMITHING
Simon: lemme just
Spiney: MOD THAT FIXES DRAGONS
Simon: draw up a map of skyrim, how it was made.
Spiney: knock yourself out
Spiney: and not a comment about my spelling
Simon: so what are the main features of skyrim then? its all built up on a open world, focuses being on the storyline taking you through a small part of that world, the storyline being connected to you by a special power(set).
Spiney: and everything else is for you to discover
Simon: on one side you have combat, that is split into two sections, Melee and Ranged. both melee and range themselves have subsections, defensive (shields, wards etc) and offensive (swords, bows, magic, axes) and they are all relatively the same in effect and function.
Spiney: though ones more powerful than the other, making the other useless
Simon: The other side you have the economy, which is stuff like drops in dungeons, vendors, and your personal skills, which is tied into combat by letting you make enhancements or potions to amplify your skills
Spiney: though all that is redundant if you just spam smithing
Simon: Again, they are all relatively the same mechanic - you get a trade skill, it can be used to make combat easier and make money. only each having their own effectiveness over the others, and differing 'lore' and 'roleplay' value
Spiney: mhm
Simon: and I have no idea where i was going with this
Spiney: I think you're going off on a tangent with no cause
Simon: i was drawing a map, right x3
Spiney: do that then
Simon: in writing :p
Spiney: well write in up in word or something
Simon: cant be assed, im over it now x3
Spiney: hehe
Spiney: I think it was: 'HEY THIS LOOKS COOL."
Spiney: "LETS ADD THAT, NEVER MIND THAT ITS UNBALANCED."
Simon: things were fluffed out more than they were integrated with the games other mechanics.
Spiney: instead of a cohesive mesh of functionality
Spiney: you have a padded... thing
Simon: blobs.
Spiney: like a comtepory artist took a [&@%!] and called it art
Spiney: contemporary*
Simon: blobs of cotton threaded together, rather than a well made and designed blanket.
Spiney: like someone patched together fabric and called it a quilt
Spiney: when in fact its just scrap
Spiney: wee, analogies
Simon: then added a little arrow to the knee and fus ro dah
Spiney: which got boring easily
Simon: maybe fus ro dah was just made (as with the whole shouting  system) when one of the developers sneezed?
Spiney: a sneeze in the code?
Spiney: goddam it c work
Simon: no i mean
Simon: he sneezed and it sounded like "fus ro dah", and they thought itd be funny if they made that into a game mechanic.
Spiney: that would be the worst game mechanic put in for fun
Simon: i find that idea rather hilarious though, would explain why it is so shoddy :p
Spiney: mhm
Spiney: I think we summed it up
Spiney: skyrim is pretty poor from a designers perspective
Spiney: fun at first
Spiney: but needed like another year put into it
Simon: gets dry fast.

If you didn't read it the tl'dr is:

In short, we think Skyrim in the sense of how it's features were implemented and integrated with other features was done extremely poorly. There's little or no overall finesse in how the game pans out. There's all too many exploits, and features that don't add much to game play overall (granted some are used in the story, but only a tad). It's a clunky mess overall. Yes it may be fun to all you who are already planning how to rebuke me. But it the sense of if you story boarded all it's features, a designer would stand back and say "yuck."

I don't have opinions on how they should fix it, they shoulda just spent another year or so on it instead of rushing it out.

Any who, reply time peoples.

[Armid]

Well, these are all just your own opinions really.
Reading your conversation there, all I could think about is "they don't like the editorial choices the devs made". In fact, there's no argument there, nothing to argue about. "I think the finisher moves were badly implemented." "Smithing is unbalanced." "This skill is useless because that one is more effective."

Problem is: Skyrim is not a multi-player game and doesn't have to be balanced. Those are as well just my opinions, but smithing makes the game too easy? Don't abuse it then. Using one weapon type is more effective than another? Again, if you want to use the one that's less powerful because it's funnier... go ahead.

Skyrim is a single player, open-world sandbox game. If you want to be über-powerful and destroy everything with your fists, go ahead. Is you prefer to restrain yourself and have a more realistic approach, then you can also do just that.

You claim you overviewed the game in a "game designer-esque manner", so imagine you're Bethesda. You have to make a game where everything is possible. What do you do? You create a game where you can abuse the mechanics and use perks/skills to make your character invincible, without totally ruining the game for the ones who better like a more realistic, more humble experience.
Obviously both group won't be totally satisfied by this "middle of the road" approach. Many will find the game too easy, some will complain that the game is still too hard, so what do you do then?
You give modders the tools they need to make the game as close to the player's taste as possible. With a combination of some mods and tweaks, everyone will have almost exactly the adventure and playtime they wish to have.

Your opinion is that Skyrim was rushed. I agree. But not for the reasons you brought to the table. Those are just opinions and preferences. (Mods are there to fix what YOU don't like. I won't be using those mods. We'll both be happy, then, and the world will be beautiful again! )

[Spiney]

You completely missed my point sir.

I know full well people ignore exploits, so do I.

My point was, you look at it at the technical level, and it's ugly. Exploits shouldn't be there, they should be balanced. It's clear smiting is broken as there's zero incentive to make the better gear. Magic is far stronger than melee, but yes you can choose not to use it. But it should be balanced to begin with, damage-wise, variety-wise, usage-wise.

Now part of that discussion was how they presented some things, which indeed was personal opinions. But the point of this thread is to bring to light how... messy the features of Skyrim are. Not in a personal opinion level, but overall.

You can have a balanced game and a fun game as well. It possible, as opposed to popular belief.

[Mattbott]

I don't understand the reasoning behind many of your opinions, so am not sure what you and Simon are getting at.. maybe I'm a glass half full gamer, but i am currently taking what Skyrim has on offer and making the most of how I want to play it and imo that's the only criteria on which a game like this should be played or judged

i actually like shouts as a game mechanic, it gives a good reason for the main character to have supernatural powers without being a mage and can complement any play style, from a stealthy ethereal ghost to weather controlling druid who can calm animals with a word

the incentive to smithing is role playing, only allow your character to use it when it becomes found in loot, for instance. I agree smithing goes up too quickly compared with alchemy for instance (as does enchanting perhaps), but so what? If smithing took 100 hours to achieve mastery of, no one would use it as they would rely on loot - that's a big factor in how they balanced it imo, and I agree largely with their decision

[JoeyDestructo]

eagerly awaiting a better game

Spoiler:

[Math]

Yes, magic is more powerful than melee. Does that make it useless? No. I enjoy it more. So it's not useless to me.

[Sansreal]

"Magic is more powerful than melee"? How did you come to that conclusion? I seem to be missing quite a few spells, then. Like the one that lets you deal over a thousand damage in a single hit.

[Grove-of-Hares]

This doesn't sound like a "games designer-eque" dialogue. It reads like two people who have perfectly good opinions, but wouldn't know how to "fix" or implement the keys to the problems that they see. A lot of, "I don't like this. They could have implemented this feature, or cut this one.", but without any real knowledge of how it works.

[Drakling]

You completely missed my point sir.

I know full well people ignore exploits, so do I.

My point was, you look at it at the technical level, and it's ugly. Exploits shouldn't be there, they should be balanced. It's clear smiting is broken as there's zero incentive to make the better gear. Magic is far stronger than melee, but yes you can choose not to use it. But it should be balanced to begin with, damage-wise, variety-wise, usage-wise.

Now part of that discussion was how they presented some things, which indeed was personal opinions. But the point of this thread is to bring to light how... messy the features of Skyrim are. Not in a personal opinion level, but overall.

You can have a balanced game and a fun game as well. It possible, as opposed to popular belief.

Sneaking>magic>normal melee. xd This is assuming you mean damage in general, in which case the strongest thing is dual-wielding daggers+sneaking. If you take into account perks, that's exactly what makes sneaking and magic gamebreakers because once you get high sneak you're nearly undetectable-can even hypothetically duck in the middle of combat if you are detected and sneak attack with once it's mastered. While magic, has the perk "Impact" that allows you to stagger someone who was already far away. Of course, it's also partially situational or can depend on the enemy-which means against dragons atop their walls and some groups magic still has an advantage because sneak doesn't have crazy multipliers with a bow, which, also needs some adjustments.

If you mean on 'a general level', without perks into account-you can cast muffle and invisibility at pretty low levels, Whereas to get muffle perk via sneak it has to be way up; and -earlier- you get much more damage output which supports magic requiring less effort+skill level-as you can cast any spell so long as you have enough mana+ mana regeneration and/or carry enough magicka potions. Ofc enchanting is also partially broken like smithing, as you can even make it to the point that some spells won't cost any magic and thus constantly cast them. @-@,

Mm. As for it being a bit ugly..I'll agree that its mechanics are sketchy, and it could use some rebalancing. I think perks are what were supposed to balance things out on each end to an extent. For the shout system they could've added in more, like getting a half dragonform at the end of the game, similar to Dragon Quarter appearance-but it'd bassically be a Skyrim werewolf with dragon-humanoid skin and tiny wings with his appearance+stat boost tied to his element. Then give it more earnable shouts like a baby dragon summon shout, a blast shout based on its element (thunder/fire/ice/poison), a land desecrating shout..though it's still limited, as you said-shouts are essentially an extension of magic. It isn't something that's completely different for the most part, and there are already magics that can do most of what shouts can without timers.



It would also be sort of dull though if every weapon+skill and destruction spell did the same ammount of damage, wouldn't it? =s I do believe each weapon+spell being given different things was to make it appear more than simply 'different tools of damage' as the way you are simplifying it, though I suppose stereotypically most analytical minds see it that way.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

Oh, hohoho, I always have conversations like that with my friends John and Terry. Just because we're 15, people think we can't have intellignet conversations and deep ones like that. Once we had a conversation like that, that last 2 full hours about global economy, war in europe, the different leaders of the world, how china was going to have a massive dip then recession and how the next century was going to turn out, yet I frequently get patronised by adults, which is painful...

[BrothaDesmund]

I don't see how this is from a game designer's perspective, it's more just your opinions on the game. Your whole thing was basically on how separate aspects of the games are similar in certain ways, and how certain things were inbalanced. You didn't talk about any technical aspects or fundamental designs that a game developer would have brought in, and to be honest to say any discussion regarding a video game can be "deep" is simply laughable.

As others said, Skyrim is an open ended game different from the traditional ones where you do a certain thing and win, you can't "beat" skyrim, the concept of "winning" and "losing" are non-existent. Balance is necessary in order to allow the player to explore different aspects of the game or win in different ways. Skyrim though, is an open-ended sandbox type of game where the concept of winning is absent. Therefore, the need for balance is largely absent as long as each skill could be specialized in and allow the player to keep up with the level of enemies. And balancing the player character with other player characters is also unnecessary, as it is single player.

And your assertion that magic is superior to melee is simply *lolwut*. I mean, magic has a set limit on damage, master level destruction spells can be more or less ignored since they aren't practical in combat due to the long charge time, but looking at the spell "incinerate", it does around 90 damage with 2 points in augmented flames, and dual casting can maybe bump you up to...let's say 200. A melee character can easily outdo that with a power attack at 75 one handed or two handed. My two handed warrior has a 200 damage+ attack greatsword, and with enchantments and power attacks factored in, a single swipe of the sword can do about 400 damage easily. If anything, melee and sneak are overpowered.

However this doesn't mean you can't get through the game as a mage, a mage has more potential early game, doing more damage until a warrior of the equivalent level has decent smithing and enchanting, and in a 1v1 fight, no matter how strong the enemy, due to the impact perk, a mage will almost always win. A mage can also have a huge party including two summons and a follower, where a melee character would have higher armor to tank the damage rather than having others tank it for him.

The ways of combat are largely balanced in skyrim and each has potential to be overpowering compared to the enemy, but skyrim is hard as you make it for yourself. If you want the combat to be harder, don't take cheap ways to make your characters powerful, or set your combat difficulty higher. Your argument largely comes from a console gamer perspective where the player is forced to do certain things to play the game, where as the PC players have always had the console, and the ability to do whatever they want with the game.

[BrothaDesmund]

Oh, hohoho, I always have conversations like that with my friends John and Terry. Just because we're 15, people think we can't have intellignet conversations and deep ones like that. Once we had a conversation like that, that last 2 full hours about global economy, war in europe, the different leaders of the world, how china was going to have a massive dip then recession and how the next century was going to turn out, yet I frequently get patronised by adults, which is painful...

I'm sorry, but how can a discussion about a video game compare to one based on economics? And it is obviously reasonable for people to assume that 15 year olds wouldn't be able to have a conversation on the same level of depth as adults, having an "intelligent" conversation relies on being intelligent. And a 15 year old obviously is going to have a different level of education than someone who has received a higher level of education.

And you predicted how China was going to have "a massive dip then recession"? Orly.....? That just kind of makes me facepalm.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

To be honest I don't know why I posted that, but, I didn't mean they would, I meant how it could/would happen and the china one was a bit of a one off I must admit. And yes, fair enough it is reasonable for adults with higher education to think that we can't have conversations with depth, but to be patronising about is completely and utterly horrible, I get it everyday, literally. I'll be having a conversation with my friend, on a subject that makes complete sense, such as the wall street crash and how it happened etc. then the teacher will interrupt, ask what we are talking about, then just laugh as if we don't have a clue! Sorry, I just don't think it is right, that because most people in my general year group can't have an intelligent conversation, doesn't mean I can't, it's beyond ridiculusness. It's like comparing Baz the Builder with Henry the History Lecturer, sorry for going off-topic I sincerely apologice etc. etc. etc.

On the topic: I get their point about dragon shouts completely, although it does feel simple and a wee bit boring, but without it, the story would be terrible.

[Spyro]

I was going to make a comment on how no-one here is actually discussing anything, just discarding everything said, but then i realized i too was discarding what you guys said, even if it was somewhat off-topic.

I will point out however, that the discussion should really be about how aspects were put together, how they were put into the game, how they /feel/, rather than if something is overpowered, or game-breaking.

A load of people are taking the whole 'rp' path, by saying you create your experience all by yourself, use mods, create your own rules, etc.
As a casual gamer myself, i don't want to have to do that to make the game enjoyable (i am sure others too), to make it 'feel' like a well designed game, as for the whole of ES games this may seem like a stupid thing to go ahead and buy skyrim, but i didn't need to do anything to the previous games to make them enjoyable (aside from the obvious bug-fixes).

My current experience in skyrim sofar is short, but even then, sofar its just been a load of boring running around, rather mediocre combat (just rushing into battle and hoping that my chosen perks/armour/weapon/playstyle works), trailing quests... that sound like they are supposed to make me feel.. epic... but in the end its still just, go to point A, fight slightly stronger boss, return to home, not even getting anything special off them, even story/character/rp wise, professions have been rather limited, ive had no use of them yet, other than a small frost enchantment on my weapons. Everything just feels rather bland.

As for if i will still play the game despite the flaws? well yeah, im a completionist, i HAVE to now that i started it, which is kinda irritating me.
Especially since its such a long game, and it is yet to spark much interest/enjoyment.

Sorry if i am not clear in this post; i rarely come off exactly as i mean.

[BrothaDesmund]

I was going to make a comment on how no-one here is actually discussing anything, just discarding everything said, but then i realized i too was discarding what you guys said, even if it was somewhat off-topic.

I will point out however, that the discussion should really be about how aspects were put together, how they were put into the game, how they /feel/, rather than if something is overpowered, or game-breaking.

A load of people are taking the whole 'rp' path, by saying you create your experience all by yourself, use mods, create your own rules, etc.
As a casual gamer myself, i don't want to have to do that to make the game enjoyable (i am sure others too), to make it 'feel' like a well designed game, as for the whole of ES games this may seem like a stupid thing to go ahead and buy skyrim, but i didn't need to do anything to the previous games to make them enjoyable (aside from the obvious bug-fixes).

My current experience in skyrim sofar is short, but even then, sofar its just been a load of boring running around, rather mediocre combat (just rushing into battle and hoping that my chosen perks/armour/weapon/playstyle works), trailing quests... that sound like they are supposed to make me feel.. epic... but in the end its still just, go to point A, fight slightly stronger boss, return to home, not even getting anything special off them, even story/character/rp wise, professions have been rather limited, ive had no use of them yet, other than a small frost enchantment on my weapons. Everything just feels rather bland.

As for if i will still play the game despite the flaws? well yeah, im a completionist, i HAVE to now that i started it, which is kinda irritating me.
Especially since its such a long game, and it is yet to spark much interest/enjoyment.

Sorry if i am not clear in this post; i rarely come off exactly as i mean.

You don't have to necessarily RP to enjoy the game, I find it a bit silly to come up with a back story for my character or develop a personality for him or whatever as well, I kind of just wonder around and do what I please. But even so, if typically your type of game is like Call of Duty or Halo, the TES is not going to be your type of game. Not everyone is going to like it.

For it being a single player RP game, balance is hardly something to even be discussed. And what you're saying is largely opinion based, which is fine, but what I'm basically saying is that the OP did the same thing, express his or her opinions, which is cool, but it was presented saying "as a game developer would think" and portrayed to be factual.

[GoatLiver]

Ok so can someone tell me how smithing is broken? or how magic is more powerfull than melee? Being serious here I haven't used or found basically any exploits in the game so I don't actually know. But having a guess is it that you can smith high lvl gear at a lower level? If so I would say that it should balance itself out due to lower skill levels in weapons and armor and used perks compared to a char of the same level without smithing. Also the spell-breaker shield is epic against magic users and with the shield charge perk you can knock them on their ass while they helplessly cast spells at you. Remember real Nord's don't believe in magic XD

[The Dog Whisperer]

If you smith the higher level weapons the greater base damage on them more than offsets the damage lost through lower skills, with them upgraded you do more damage and gain skill faster due to how the skills level and the fact your's is low.
So you can pretty quickly get much higher damage if you grind Smithing first: But you have to consciously buy all the materials and grind it up.

Magic isn't stronger in the numbers, but you can abuse the Impact perk to stun-lock enemies. You can get through a fight with a Dwarven Centurion Master without taking damage once. (Although if you went full glass cannon with all Magicka bonuses you'd probably die in one anyway)

[Theificka]

Ok so can someone tell me how smithing is broken? or how magic is more powerfull than melee? Being serious here I haven't used or found basically any exploits in the game so I don't actually know. But having a guess is it that you can smith high lvl gear at a lower level? If so I would say that it should balance itself out due to lower skill levels in weapons and armor and used perks compared to a char of the same level without smithing. Also the spell-breaker shield is epic against magic users and with the shield charge perk you can knock them on their ass while they helplessly cast spells at you. Remember real Nord's don't believe in magic XD

Everything is more powerful than melee, and smithing isn't really broken, it just has no depth to the skill.

I myself agree, it feels a little bit rushed, the only enchanting perk beyond the skill is in smithing, which justs makes no sense. Enchanting was given a chance, but it is a little mediocre until you have a high skill and high leveled souls.

[Spiney]

Ok so can someone tell me how smithing is broken? or how magic is more powerfull than melee? Being serious here I haven't used or found basically any exploits in the game so I don't actually know. But having a guess is it that you can smith high lvl gear at a lower level? If so I would say that it should balance itself out due to lower skill levels in weapons and armor and used perks compared to a char of the same level without smithing. Also the spell-breaker shield is epic against magic users and with the shield charge perk you can knock them on their ass while they helplessly cast spells at you. Remember real Nord's don't believe in magic XD

In smithing, the way your experience gain is measured gives you zero incentive to make the higher level gear.

Essentially, you can make iron dagger after iron dagger and you can quickly get it to 100. In turn, this make dungeon crawling pointless, as you can get smithing to 100, slay one or two dragons and you have dragon gear.

And the next person who tells me you can just not use it, I will personally rip out their virtual jugular and serve it to them on a real life platter. The fact is that they left in such a gaping exploit is bad games design no matter what way you look at it. A simple fix would be to have a sliding downwards curve on the experience gained from smithing based on the weapons value. Over time, the lower value items like an iron dagger should give you zero experience, forcing you to make the higher value items to continue levelling up.

It would fix the zero incentive, as well as increasing the reward value for levelling up smithing. In turn, there would be equal reward in dungeon crawling as there would be equal effort in both ways to get good gear.

And for the people who don't pursue smithing, there should be NPC services to provide weapon improvement so both sides would have equal access to it, through different means. This would also balance game play as you wouldn't just need to pursue smithing to get the highest DPS.

That is not an opinion, that is how you design and balance a game.

[The Dog Whisperer]

And the next person who tells me you can just not use it, I will personally rip out their virtual jugular and serve it to them on a real life platter. The fact is that they left in such a gaping exploit is bad games design no matter what way you look at it.

What exactly is wrong with an exploit? All it does is create more options.
Morrowind has the Drain exploits, Oblivion has multiple skill grinding exploits and Skyrim's got the same.
Exploits aren't "bad" unless they can be used in some form of competitive/multiplayer gaming. Removing them limits flexibility within a single player game.
Not saying you need to set out to put them in but why make a big deal out of them once you find them?: Other people using them doesn't affect you, you [yourself] have the option to use them or not.

Your example of Iron Daggers for Smithing grinding is a conscious exploit, you can't make 50 Iron Daggers unless you visit all the blacksmiths to buy materials or spend an hour purely mining, but if you take/mine materials you find while dungeon diving the skill doesn't level faster than anything else. My Imperial's been doing that and his Smithing is 10 levels behind his One-Handed.

I disagree there's no incentive in making the higher level gears, since it's the easiest way to get them depending on level, and even at the highest levels it's hard to find top tier armour and weapons.
But I agree there should have been NPCs with fixed Smithing levels from whom you could order/upgrade things. Sounds like a perfect idea for a mod?
Whether exploits are bad or not is an opinion- Although I don't particularly understand the argument that they are.

[CWillio]

Really, though, shouldn't this have been in the "what you hate about Skyrim" thread? I don't understand why you would post your whole exchange with your bf (just to summarize it at the end) and then post it in it's own thread...

[Spyro]

Really, though, shouldn't this have been in the "what you hate about Skyrim" thread? I don't understand why you would post your whole exchange with your bf (just to summarize it at the end) and then post it in it's own thread...

Perhaps because its supposed to be a discussion, rather than pointless hating.

But no-one seems to see that.

[CWillio]

So, everyone who has posted in that thread has done so pointlessly?

"Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly"

That sounds like some Skyrim-hatin' to my eyes.. err.. looks like Skyrim-hatin' to my ears.. or whatever... but it's more important hate, right?

[Spiney]

So, everyone who has posted in that thread has done so pointlessly?

"Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly"

That sounds like some Skyrim-hatin' to my eyes.. err.. looks like Skyrim-hatin' to my ears.. or whatever... but it's more important hate, right?

Hating, yes because if I hated the game I wouldn't have:



No, I'm not hating. Take your White Knight attitude out of here.

People here have missed the point that this is a discussion of Bethesda's design quality, which in the discussion we showed that we thought it was pretty poor, myself using the example of how broken Smiting is and pointing ways it could be balanced.

[Spyro]

So, everyone who has posted in that thread has done so pointlessly?

"Simon: Skyrim sucks.
Spiney: my point exactly"

That sounds like some Skyrim-hatin' to my eyes.. err.. looks like Skyrim-hatin' to my ears.. or whatever... but it's more important hate, right?

More examples of how you are blinded by your... fixation on telling people off for "hating" skyrim.
Ignoring the discussion at hand.