Daily Skyrim Debate: Skyrim Hold Wars

[PsijicOrder]

So instead of the Civil War being Stormcloaks VS Imperials, What if it was all the Hold's fending for themselves? Which Hold would win the conflict? Your vote should be based on many things such as resources, geography, leaders, and the Hold's city. This is a debate, so I expect some arguments on who would truly win. I'll add a poll just so we can see visually what everyone thinks.






--Roleplaying/Editing?--
So, off subject, I'm looking for a person who can help me maintain the Skyrim Roleplaying Idea Guide. I've been doing all the edits myself and it gets tough.. Theres a link to the page in my signature. If you're not interested in editing but you like roleplaying, check out the page and contribute if you want. (: We've expanded quite a bit. Interested in Editing? Pm me! ;D

[Moirae]

Haafingar has quite a few advantages over all the other holds, though some of the others would be strong contenders.

Haafingar has the benefit of having access to a port, which all the other holds lack, though Falkreath and the Rift are not as hindered by this due to their access to large roads which connect to other regions of Tamriel. The interior holds such as Whiterun and the Reach are at a disadvantage by not being able to keep supply lines to the outside world open, and in a war of attrition, this would surely be crippling.

Haafingar's capital is also one of the best situated in terms of defensible strengths, though Markarth is stronger as a single city (Dwemer building trumps flimsy human architecture). However, Solitude is geographically in an excellent position, being high on a mountain side, with a commanding view of its only road, which would give excellent advantage to the defenders in a siege. Markarth is again comparably excellent, but has a a slightly less extreme slope leading to its doors, making it more accessible to an advancing army.

Haafingar's main disadvantage is that it is located far north, and so it would be dependent on external supplies, due to a relatively cold climate, and so their own farms would likely not be able to keep pace with the demands of a war. Conversely, that could also be a weakness of rich, productive holds like the Rift and Whiterun, as if they were on the defensive, ripe farms would provide advancing armies with fresh supplies, and an easy target (burn and pillage, etc.) to cripple the hold reliant upon them. With Solitude having its port, it would be much harder for an invading force to cripple that external supply.

Politically, Haaringar is also one of the least turbulent holds, and so would not have to contend with internal struggles while simultaneously fighting off an invading force. The Reach is plagued with corruption and infighting on account of the forsworn within the city, and the courtyside is plagued with forsworn raiders, who would likely seize upon the anarchy of a open war to press their advantage within the hold, or even strike an accord with the invading force to win back what they see as their rightful lands. The Rift would have similar problems with the Thieve's guild, and its incredibly corrupt and inefficient government.

[azuarc]

Whichever one Markarth is in. Don't feel like looking up the name of the hold. (Why can't the names of the holds be the same as the name of the city? I don't think I once saw "Hjaalmarch" while playing the game.)...I want The Reach, right?

Rason for Markarth is simple: it's far-enough removed from everyone else and the city itself is easily-defended. Nobody's going to want to go after it. Thus, they can either play the role of aggressor fairly safely, or wait back safely while everyone else kills each other.

[scribbane]

Moirae, you forget that Windhelm has a port on the White River leading out to the Sea of Ghosts. However I don't think Eastmarch would be a likely candidate, I'm just pointing that out.

I would have to agree with azuarc and say that the Reach would likely win, if only because it is extremely defensible. It's a Helm's Deep scenario, where the citizens of the Reach can fall back to the safety of Markarth, and even to Understone Keep. The land of the Reach itself is extremely unforgiving, with mountains and cliffs dominating the landscape, and the rivers cutting through the area certainly aren't ideal to navigate. And I actually think the Forsworn would be a help here, because they would attack the invading armies as well, even if they aren't specifically allied with the Reach. A contingent from Whiterun is just as susceptible to a Forsworn raid as anyone else would be.

[PsijicOrder]

I think the forsworn would relish the opportunity with all those free supplies. ;D

[Gideon Dragontongue]

I had some trouble making a decision, but ultimately I have to say Riften, with Haafinger and Whiterun a close second, mostly because Riften's got the Thieves Guild, and I think we all know who's going to come out on top with the combined forces of Maven Black-Briar and the Guild on their side.

[PsijicOrder]

One thing you guys have to consider.. Whiterun is surrounded by flatland making it VERY easy to siege. Whiterun is out of the question. Plus, the keep is made of wood.

[Eltee]

Eastmarch - Internal strife, Dunmer.
Falkreath- Small
Haafingar- Large pop, united, strategically sound.
Hjaalmarch- Small
The Pale- Small
The Reach- Internal strife, Forsworn
The Rift- Corruption
Whiterun- Unsound central location
Winterhold- Small

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Well, Gondor was "easy to siege" as well, and they got through things just fine. Also it's going to make a LOT of difference who the Dovahkiin is sided with, and me, I'm with Whiterun.

[scribbane]

Yeah but you can't REALLY factor the Dovahkiin in because that comes down to personal preference. That would be like asking who would win the actual Skyrim Civil War, it comes down to who you side with. I mean even the Pale would be a serious contender if Dovahkiin decided to back them. The Dovahkiin is essentially a small army, that has powers beyond most of the other citizens.

[Eltee]

Assuming the Dragonborn stays neutral, four holds, Falkreath, Hjaalmarch, Winterhold and the Pale, have no chance.
The Reach could not engage in a war outside of it's territory without falling to internal attacks from the Forsworn.
Whiterun, Windhelm, Riften and Solitude are the only logical contenders.
Whiterun is crippled by its location and terrain.

Eastmarch has unhappy native populations of Dunmer and Argonians, poor agriculture, and no other major settlements other than Windhelm.

Riften is better populated and more fertile, with Ivarstead, Darkwater Crossing and Shor's Stone representing secondary settlements. However, it is plagued by the corrupt Black-Briars and the Thieves Guild.

Solitude is extremely well populated, with Dragons Bridge representing a secondary population centre, good agriculture, top of the line fortifications, and a functioning port. It also has the distinction of being the traditional home of the High King.

[PsijicOrder]

I'm definitely changing my vote to the rift.. I just walked in there attacked a guard and ambushed by like 10 of them. They then proceeded to slay me with arrows. Riften's on top of the game.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

The Pale, Winterhold, Hjaalmarch are all small and with tiny agricultural potential. Falkreath is also too small to be a contender. This leaves us with Haafingar, the Reach, the Rift, Eastmarch and Whiterun.

I choose Haafingar. Firstly because Solitude is the most defensible city in Skyrim. Better situated, with better walls, better internal fortresses and dock facilties that are large enough to a strong navy and to supply an army on the march. Solitude also, unlike the other cities, has a centralised recruitment centre AND specialised fletching and armoury services.

It is probably the wealthiest hold, though perhaps comes second due to the Reach's silver mines. Haafingar's productive farmland, large population and well established trading infrastructure will provide the funding for a successful war.

Solitude is also home to the Bard's College, and a war always goes more smoothly if you have a team of talented propaganda agents at your disposal.

Looking at the geography, we see that Haafingar is safe to its west by being bordered by neutral High Rock and to its north by the open sea. Less guards on border duty mean more soldiers for offensive campaigns. A hold like Whiterun, by contrast, would be stretched to breaking point by its border guarding needs. Western Skyrim can be easily invaded from Hjaalmarch to western Whitrun to northern Falkreath to the Inner sections of the Reach via a series of long rivers. These rivers are the ideal conduit for large groups of soldiers to be transported and resupplied. And what city is the only one in Skyrim with a sheltered harbour and well developed docking facilities that could carry out such a venture? That's right, Solitude. It will be Solitude's armies which conquer half the holds in Skyrim using those rivers.

Haafingar easily gets first place.

[PsijicOrder]

Just an Update, Riften is STILL kicking my ass.. ://

[PsijicOrder]

Update:
I'll be working on the Collectors category most likely tonight. Keep the ideas coming please. x) There's still quite a few things that haven't been edited since today's overhaul.

[RedDeadFred]

For the dozens of reasons that have already been said, my vote is for Haafingar coming in first by quite a bit and the Pale being a distant second.
My idea of the final battle is Haafingar has crushed everyone and marches to Markarth. The city proves too difficult to take at the time because of how easily defended it is and Haafingar pulls back its armies but does not allow any supplies to ever enter Markarth again.
Haafingar is forced to surrender do to lack of food and supplies.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Honestly, having Black-Briars and the Guild on your side is an asset, not a hindrance. Riften is the only hold with anything significantly in the way of espionage, and that's going to make all the difference.

[Moirae]

Honestly, having Black-Briars and the Guild on your side is an asset, not a hindrance. Riften is the only hold with anything significantly in the way of espionage, and that's going to make all the difference.

You're assuming that the TG and Maven have any loyalty to Riften, which is a huge assumption, since that doesn't appear in any dialogue with any TG member nor the Black-Briar family. They are a guild of thieves, and they constantly mention how they are profit driven, not loyalty driven. If an invading force can make the TG a better offer than the current Jarl (which can be something as nominal as getting guards to turn a blind eye, to something as egregious as actually paying them off or granting explicit political favors) then the BBs and TG are immediately a massive hindrance to The Rift.

And since in game, the current Jarl is massively against the presence of the Thieve's Guild, there is no reason to assume that the guild would assist the Rift in an open war with another hold.

Spoiler:

Even assuming that Maven has become Jarl due to winning the war for the Imperials, it is unlikely that the Guild would assist Maven in a war, considering how unimportant she becomes to the entire quest line after you co opt Honeyside Brewery for her. And its not like the guild has any specific interest in Riften or the Rift, they are primarily based there due to having been booted out of the other holds when they started losing influence.

[PsijicOrder]

That's true. But at least they would still have the thieves guild's abilities. I'm sure that they could easily pay the thieves guild for use of espionage.

[Moirae]

That's true. But at least they would still have the thieves guild's abilities. I'm sure that they could easily pay the thieves guild for use of espionage.

Oh, I fully agree that if either side of a conflict were able to utilize the Thieve's Guild, it would be a major boon, but to assume that they would automatically side with the Rift is where I have contention. And considering how the TG is characterized in game, I feel they would be more likely to side with an outside force, rather than the current rulers of Riften.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

I agree that the Thieves Guild isn't going to do a thing unless they stand to profit. However, the Jarl is essentially a puppet, and Maven basically controls Riften. Now, if Maven Black-Briar decides to use the Guild to overthrow the current Jarl, she will have no trouble since the Guild essentially controls the guard force. Now, if the Black-Briars were to expand their territory, the guild would stand to profit as well, since Maven Black-Briar would allow their influence in other holds as Riften took control of them. Therefore, it would make sense for their alliance to continue.

[DarkEastwood]

- Not Haafinger because the guards don't do their jobs very well. They let Ulfric waltz on in (even if the guy let him in, they still shouldn't have had a problem) and kill their king.

I'll go with Eastmarch, since it's uphill and theres no outside-city cover for enemies to use.

[BrothaDesmund]

I think Haafinger for the sole reason that while the other holds would fight alone, with the exception of Whiterun which would probably have the Companions helping them, Haafinger is home to Solitude which means they could easily gain support from the Empire or even the Aldmeri dominion. People like the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood would not help their home cities in a war, they would maybe take on certain jobs if the officials opted to use them, but they wouldn't be an extremely important asset as they aren't recognized by the city formally. The Mages College would also be distrusted and therefore not be really be able to do much, meaning that Winterhold has no chance, especially after the collapse. Markarth is ripe with corruption and the Jarl is a weak leader, otherwise they would also be pretty viable. Whiterun is easily sieged and surrounded, forcing them to be too defensive to win.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Everyone is ignoring the real victor here, Whiterun.

In a true full on civil war with all Holds fighting each other, the Companions would really have no choice but to fight or else they would be destroyed along with their Hold (main source of revenue). And having a elite group of

Spoiler:

Werewoves

and warriors on your side is a very good thing.

Another thing that has been mentioned however is the likely dominance of the two western Holds in such a war. Problem with that is, Whiterun is easily one of the most populated Hold, all that farmland and plains come in handy for a large population, they are set to survive with their multiple farms and what not. On top of that Whiterun is the trade capital of Skyrim. You can have all the ports and Silver you want, but when you're trade routes are blocked by a genocidal armed group of veteran soldiers who have allied with deadly monsters, your trade relations are going to tank.

Not to mention the difficulty it would take to move your army through the terrain of those two holds. Dragonsbridge is the only major way across the White river, and guess who just so happens to have a major town along the way? With nothing but flatland and plains Whiterun could have an army there in a short amount of time, while Haafingar would march past the mountainous regions and marshland before reaching the plains.

Also have you seen the Reach/Whiterun border? Its nothing but a huge cliff and the Reach has to be the one to climb up it, with all those forts/towers sitting on top of that cliff, Whiterun with its larger and more mobilized army could capture them and spread them out, and the Reach's most prominent fort is sitting right in Whiterun, they could easily take it over and have reinforcements sent there before Markarth could send another detachment.

Fort Greymoor is also another thing to be taken into consideration, to even be able to touch Whiterun you'd have to take it, and the thing is built into a mountain and surronded by hostile giants and their mammoths you'd have to get through them first, and once that fort falls, so what you still have the western tower and the actual city itself left, heres the thing people forget Whiterun isn't just a city in the middle of the field its on a hill and is built into the entire thing, all the barracks and dungeons are built into that hill, so you have quite an effective fort if you're willing to abandon Dragonsreach, and not all of the thing is wooden the whole greatporch and actual center of the castle is made of stone.


Lastly lets not forget Politics in the real case scenario its no doubt that the stormcloaks would be around without the Empire since leadership would fall to Ulfric, but without an Empire to point the finger at and say theres the enemy his rebellion has no real chance to spread, the only other real city thats willing to fight for him is Riften, and would you want a corrupt city that could change sides as soon as you lose a battle?

Whiterun on the other hand has Balgruuf, and do you think that man is about to let his people get toppled? Hell no, he would lead his troops to take the closest forts he could and with the best warrior faction on his side and one of the most populated area's with a few towns to recruit soldiers from, he's got a pretty powerful army, on top of that really, Falkreath would have no choice but to side with Balgruuf, a major town that has a rather large army stationed there is poised to attack and who would they side with?

The Reach is blocked by a mountainous terrain and littered with the Forsworn. If and when they manage to get their [&@%!] together Balgruuf and Whiterun will have most of the border forts/towers under his control and the things are already poised to defend Whiterun, I mean just look at them literally all of them point towards the Reach, they're made for Whitrun's defense.

And lastly Elisif is not the ruler to lead her Hold into battle, her husband couldn't even do it, what makes her qualified to lead, the only person who could do it is Firebeard and he simply couldnt rally the people like Balgruuf could.

[Will Zurmacht]

In a true full on civil war with all Holds fighting each other, the Companions would really have no choice but to fight or else they would be destroyed along with their Hold (main source of revenue). And having a elite group of warriors on your side is a very good thing.

Well, the Companions are mercenaries. Presumably they would contract out with the highest bidder during a prolonged conflict, which bidder could be any of the rich factions in the province: the royal court, the Silver-Bloods of Markarth, or the Black-Briars of Riften (perhaps the College?). I suppose Balgruuf could try to hold Jorvaskr hostage over the question, but that might be just as likely to make deadly enemies of the Companions as gain their (grudging) aid.

Lastly lets not forget Politics in the real case scenario its no doubt that the stormcloaks would be around without the Empire since leadership would fall to Ulfric, but without an Empire to point the finger at and say theres the enemy his rebellion has no real chance to spread, the only other real city thats willing to fight for him is Riften, and would you want a corrupt city that could change sides as soon as you lose a battle.

I've been thinking that in the absence of the Legion and/or Dovakhiin, Ulfric would simply run away with a proper civil war. He's got the perfect mix of lust to rule, force of personality, audacity (regicide in broad daylight!), shrewdness, superpowers (Thu'um), and strong starting position to overcome all opposition.