Weaponry?

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:39 pm

Heyos ^_^

SO, I've got this insane love of bladed weapons (Seems to be a requirement for some types of nerd...) and only two to look at, play with, and pretend I'm awesome with.. and neither are actually combat-sturdy, which is what I really want (I wish to be able to train and spar with real swords, though sparring would only come after a LOT of training and sparring with wooden swords).

Does anyone know where I'd be able to find truly combat sturdy bladed weapons? (Aside from like.. military combat knives)

ETA:: I've only been able to find replica 'show swords' and the like, and ones that I simply wouldn't trust to hit a scarecrow, let alone another blade.

DorostheConqueror · Post by **DorostheConqueror** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:52 pm

NO! Swords are dangerous! They'll cut you right open! DON'T. TOUCH. SWORDS.

Watch all of them before you make the biggest mistake of your life!

P.S. How about knitting? Knitting is a fun hobby.

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:54 pm

I know swords are dangerous lol... I'm not gonna go around thinking I'm a genius and messing around and cut my guts out (Can't watch that atm, school censorship sux)

I mean actually train, with practice dummies, usually using wooden swords, but the real thing for weight balance and feeling. Only one way to really know how to use a sword, and its to learn with a sword.

DorostheConqueror · Post by **DorostheConqueror** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:57 pm

Training is dangerous, too! You'll cut your hands off!

Besides, if you're training properly, you'll have a teacher, and if you have a teacher, he'll know where to get what you need. Why not ask him?

Deandra · Post by **Deandra** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:04 pm

DorostheConqueror wrote:P.S. How about knitting? Knitting is a fun hobby.

I prefer crochet.

weka · Post by **weka** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:19 pm

Doros, I'm so not watching any of those links!!

Actually I knit quite abit, well at least I did before I gave up my life entirely for work, only just beginning to work on getting it back at the mo, and Knitting is further down the list....

Crochet is good too, I just don't tend to do it so much.

However both are now Dangerous Sports! Had a jersey on round needles a few yrs back, and security in Aberdeen airport snipped of the metal bits before I was allowed through!!

He did at least tape them up so I wouldn't loose my stitches, but honestly, how is that any diff from the metal arms that you can get on some glasses/sunglasses?!

So no more in-flight knitting!

Kahn · Post by **Kahn** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:24 pm

about the sword.......
Couldn't you just search the internet? if theres anything you need you can find it on the internet
i wonder if you need a weapon license or something? probaly not

leroybrown · Post by **leroybrown** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:41 pm

What type of sword(s) are you talking about. Thats gonna make a pretty big impact on training and where you go to train.

If you are talking about some form of martial arts then really think about this more. Good schools arnt cheap and most want you to train your hands first. Most new students are gone within a month cause martial arts training isnt what they expected.

The Tourist · Post by **The Tourist** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:57 pm

A 'weapons thread'?

True story - I have a full-sized, full-weighted English longblade upstairs. As some piece of wise bushido tells it; the purest sword from the greatest master only ever sleeps in its scabbard. (i'd quote it properly, but can't be bothered to look it up. yet)

And whilst I'd appreciate that if I were a maniacal bushido advocate living a couple of hundred years ago in the ponced-up metropolis that was Edo, I'd be happy with that. But also? Those longswords are heavy. And I am a (relative) wuss (I'm a musician for goodness sake!). I may be cross-Anglo Saxon with Scandinavian blood, but vast upper-body strength is clearly not fiercely genetic. Y'know, without working out daily..

Come to think of it, the other member of the semi-dead musical combo that I was a part of, also owned a sword. Man! We're hardcore! (but he did tai'chi, so he had a reason to own one. we once had a conversation about who would win in a straight-ahead fight. we agreed me; as his was a fancy Chinese blade. one lucky hit with my half-tonne of steel, and bam!!! game over... subtlety is so overrated. Yay me!)

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:59 pm

I'm already training in Kendo, and have a teacher and such in that.

However, I wish to actually expand my own skills to create my unique style, outside of Kendo.

Therefore no, there wouldn't be a teacher, and yes, even training is dangerous lol, that's why you're careful, pay attention, and don't practice without anyone else around. Kinda like swimmin =P

Anyway, I have searched the internet, but I keep coming up with things like the Forgotten Realsm, LoTR, and other fantasy replica swords, which I'm certain wouldn't hold up to any kind of stress.

My teacher only knows about where to get kata-yo or habiki, but I don't wish to use traditional japanese blades for this.

In the end I want two weapons, one a short sword or light scimitar, the other a dirk.

Masser · Post by **Masser** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:03 pm

I am going to acquire a cavalry sword,and maybe a german sword from WWII.

weka · Post by **weka** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:05 pm

The Tourist wrote:.....we once had a conversation about who would win in a straight-ahead fight. we agreed me; as his was a fancy Chinese blade. one lucky hit with my half-tonne of steel, and bam!!! game over... subtlety is so overrated. Yay me!)

But remember, he'd have plenty of time to finish you off while you were still liftin your 1/2 tonne for that first swing!!

The Tourist · Post by **The Tourist** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:16 pm

Weka, that's why we conluded on the 'luck' aspect.
Anyway, I'd start my backswing and run-up from afar, that way it didn't matter if he saw it coming, because I'd just hit everything. Monitors? Mixing desk? Thwack!!!

[Necessary Carry-On smutism: Surely it'd be impossible to miss with the size of my weapon!]

Anyway, remember my false-pride thing? Yup, still in full working order.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:48 pm

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/sword.html

http://www.angelsword.com/indo-persian/ ... n_home.php
Angel Sword Sultan's Dream (AS133-889) $5,000 (includes sheath)

For a DirK - Best knives you could buy, custom made too: http://www.randallknives.com/

Dark Spark · Post by **Dark Spark** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:48 am

Oh, dear. Where to start...

okiphia: Hold on, let me whip out that card the powers-that-be-gave me. Here it is— Welcome to the exciting world of hopelessly archaic lethal weaponry. As I'm sure you'll know, you're going to get more than your fair share of wary glances and awkward pauses when the discussion of swords comes up in casual conversation with friends, relatives, law enforcement officers and other 'normal' people. This is common, but take it in stride: it's what sets you apart from other folks.

Now, responsibility and maturity are very important when it comes to the practice of swordsmanship. That's not the sort of thing one first looks for in a gaming forum, so let's gloss over that for a bit. You want to know where to get the sharpies.

Now, I imagine that you're starting out, so a custom order from a well-established professional bladesmith is out of the equation. It's not just a matter of price (though I'll mention such prices start at four figures and only get worse from there), it's a matter of time (months for a relatively simple job, but start thinking in terms of years from some makers with a backlog). So, let's look at the production-level firms.

First off the bat: Angus Trim. I don't have any one website that catalogs all his models (selection varies from vendor to vendor). But at least you have a name to Google. His blades are at the low end of the functional sword market: starting at $500 (you might get lucky with a new, no-frills blade in the 400's) and going up with the more elaborate furnishing options provided through aftermarket cutlers. Not the most faithful in historical reproduction, but his swords can be most accurately described as being the modern, industrial evolution of basic swordcraft. Another word you can apply to his blades: tough. If you don't care about looks, bells-n-whistles or historical accuracy and only care about a sword that will $%#^ things beyond all hell with ease, Gus Trim's blades will do.

Second in line: Arms & Armor. Their Renaissance-era rapiers are cool. Their medieval stuff— nice, but not quite as cool as their rapiers. Looks better than Angus Trim's un-worked blades, but what you see with A&A is what you get, whereas you can always tweak and upgrade an ATrim blade through some cutler like Christian Fletcher or John Ludemo.

Third up, and the top-tier of production-level American medieval (now, that is a contradiction in terms) swordmakers: Albion Swords of New Glaurus, Wisconsin. The finest-looking swords in the production market, perfectly serviceable and about as close as you'll get to a kick-thine-arse sword that'll come off-the-shelf. The problem is that their price reflects this quality— some of their longswords cost as much as you'd may get from a custom swordsmith (minus the flexibility and distinction of having a sword made for you as opposed to choosing a sword that was already pre-made).

The Tourist wrote:A 'weapons thread'?

True story - I have a full-sized, full-weighted English longblade upstairs. ... But also? Those longswords are heavy. And I am a (relative) wuss (I'm a musician for goodness sake!). I may be cross-Anglo Saxon with Scandinavian blood, but vast upper-body strength is clearly not fiercely genetic. Y'know, without working out daily...

You telling me that you can't lift three pounds?

My Albion Regent is slightly more than that, and Regents are considered somewhat on the monstrous side.

Vesna · Post by **Vesna** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:06 am

I have a real medieval-style sword in the attic. We put it up because it was basically impossible to swing it without breaking something. It is a full-sized claymore as well.

Imagine fighting with one of those while fully clad in heavy armor.... I just don't see how they did it.

ArotosMarkos · Post by **ArotosMarkos** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:11 am

I also train in Kendo, and I've screwed around with numerous weaponry, including longbows, throwing knives, claymores, longswords, short swords, and throwing axes.

Let me tell you, longbows are much too difficult.
Throwing knives and throwing axes were easy enough, as I play a lot of darts. (Different principles, but same idea).
The claymore is the worst of the bunch. I attempted to heave one above my head to slam onto a wood stump. I ended up with a dislocated shoulder and eighteen stitches.
Longswords are loads of fun. Still heavy, but my cousin and I would spend hours "dueling".
Shortswords are quite possibly the best, as they are light, easy to maneuver, and they still give that Medeival Knight feeling.

Vesna · Post by **Vesna** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:17 am

I like longbows. But maybe that comes from my "hate getting melee" personality. I would prefer ranged weapons over melee any day.

ArotosMarkos · Post by **ArotosMarkos** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:37 am

Heh.
I want you to fire on a small target while pulling back the string (which is nearly impossible). The worst part is is that when you are trying to keep the string back and the arrow knocked, your hands become much too jittery.

I never use the icon or zoom-in when using bows in Oblivion. I even shake the mouse around a bit.
THAT is what I call RPing.

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:41 am

Wow, wonderful post, Dark Spark! Thankies!

And I'm aware of cost, just never known where to get anything really. Having an established blacksmith make one will be some time though. I don't want to pay that much for something I'm going to learn with, because my lack of skill in that style would damage the blade too much over time for my liking.

Second.. thanks for all those references! you rock!

Arotos -

I'm skilled with longbows, crossbows, throwing knives, and throwing axes to a lesser extent.

Claymores are well.. claymores are claymores lol... that takes a lot of muscle to wield with any kind of skill, and even more when you don't know what you're doing.

Longswords are indeed fun, I've dueled with a couple wooden ones that I made (Getting balance right is hard, though still not comparable to a real one)

And shortswords.. how I do love thee so.. lol. But seriously, for my planned fighting style, it's the only way to go, or I'll end up slicing one of my biceps, or worse lol.

Once I have my blades, its going to be a long while before I'm confident enough ith them to spar anyone, and even then it will be cautious. These are for a hobby, understanding of the art of swordsmanship (More than just traditional japanese), and for the beauty of the art.

The bows I use for hunting, and throwing knives I've used once for hunting (Wow.. that was so fricking hard.. seriously...)

Thanks all for answers ^_^

OH! And Dark Spark, actually a gaming forum seems one of the most likely places to glean info from, considering the common-ness for the love of blades among fantasy game lovers (Oblivion included). Therefore, someone has to know something real! lol

DorostheConqueror · Post by **DorostheConqueror** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:56 am

I doubt there's more than two people alive who count as "skilled" in longbows. Heck, I'm Welsh and I can't even string one of those damn things (thank you, holidays touring castles and historical re-enactments, for teaching me that life is much more amusing here in the 21st century).

And who on the internet hasn't studied Kendo? Especially RPG playing dorks like us.

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:59 am

DorostheConqueror wrote:I doubt there's more than two people alive who count as "skilled" in longbows. Heck, I'm Welsh and I can't even string one of those damn things (thank you, holidays touring castles and historical re-enactments, for teaching me that life is much more amusing here in the 21st century).

And who on the internet hasn't studied Kendo? Especially RPG playing dorks like us.

Skilled as in I have made my own longbow, straight from the tree, and can hit pretty well from hunting distance.... for most these days, thats pretty skilled

Dark Spark · Post by **Dark Spark** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:01 am

Well, when it comes to sparring, a wooden waster is the way to go. Actually, the pecking norder of trainers (from safest & least realistic to most realistic & risky) starts with foam-padded simulators, wasters, aluminium sparring blunts, and then steel sparring blunts.

No one spars with another person using sharp steel. That'd be like paintballers swapping their markers for actual guns and live ammo. Swords have been used to efficiently slaughter able-bodied fighters who never wanted to die for close to four thousand years now— until humankind evolves some sort of armored skin, they have lost none of that lethality. Problem today is that most folks consider them as curiosities, play-acting props or even toys (hand two swords off to some frat boys in a dorm room and just count the seconds before they start slapping them together).

Even with blunts, you'd need some pretty comprehensive armor protection. Padded trainers would demand elbow pads, or something for the fingers at the least. Wasters would require some basic armor for limbs (getting hit by a sword-shaped baseball bat still means you're getting hit with a baseball bat). And the metal blunts demand actual armor protection for the limbs, joints and torso (no need to go overboard with plate harness— we're talking a leather jack and gambeson at the least).

Albion and Arms & Armor sell steel training blunts, but they are not the only ones out there. Wooden wasters are even cheaper, easily replacable, and more forgiving.

So-called "live" blades, the sharps I mentioned in the earlier post, are pefectly suitable for dry-cutting drills (show that empty air just who's boss!) or refining your cutting technique with a target. Oddly enough, pool noodles are popular— the trick being how to cut cleanly through one without wasting energy by knocking it around.

Traditional sword practice (and I'm talking about the days before the invention of the printing press or underarm deodorant) was pitting your sword against a pell— a log stood up to a man's height that you chip and knick away at.

okiphia · Post by **okiphia** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:57 am

I think I should have worded my post different lol.. didn't mean sparring people with an edged sword.. now that would be stupid.. I don't want to hurt anyone, really!

I meant I would train my style with wood, then move up to the blades themselves once confident, and spar with steel blunts in the right length and weight proportions only when confident with my own two blades. I want to be able to fight with the real blades, simply for the ability (I would not do so unless my life was truly threatened)

I know the dangers of real blades, and I'm not just about to go slicing someone open because I have an urge to whack things with sharpened steel.

I do have a question however, one that just springs to mind.

Is it possible, if true blades are allowed to weather enough to run down the edge a bit, and make them dull, to spar, with full armor, and very limited risk if the combatants are skilled enough?

I know that armor has its weak points, and its general downsides, so it would have to be extremely skilled combatants, that know exactly how hard they can hit and where before they start to go too far.

Essentially, is it possible these days to have a true spar with real blades, with armour, and not end up dead? XD

Dark Spark · Post by **Dark Spark** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:17 am

Oh, I've heard talk about rebating (deliberately blunting) a sharp sword's edge, and some makers providing either a sharpened or unsharpened blade upon delivery. But the general consensus is that a sword that was designed to be blunt in the first place is better than taking a sharp blade and rebating the edge. The blunt sword was made with a shallower bevel, which gives it the full breadth of the blade while presenting a dull edge. A sword designed as a sharp and turned blunt would either require taking a lot more metal off the edge, or having an edge bevel that was still a little more effective at injuring someone.

The funkiest thing about a training blunt is either the center of percussion or harmonics (standing nodes or destructive interference, whatever is the vogue of the sword community at the moment) is deliberately mussed with, so you end up being unable to deliver all the energy of a strike into the target.

A functional sword is going to have a spot on the blade where, if you hit the target at that spot, will cut straight through (without the tendency of the hilt to jar back or drag ahead of the stroke) and/or with no energy lost through vibration. That is what gives a sword its limb-hacking ease, and just what a training blunt is designed to avoid.

As to the question of how far is 'too far' when training with a partner, that's a lively and contentious issue within a dedicated sword forum community. I won't be able to give you a simple answer from that. The more realistic the equipment, the more careful you become in your technique. Which, ironically, may make your training less realistic if you train yourself to pull strikes or otherwise modify them so they present less of a danger to your partner.

That is not to say that you should sacrifice safety for realism in any case, but two folks going at it with foam-padded sticks may spar at full speed and be more realistic in their technique. The problem they have, of course, is having their 'blades' bounce off each other like they were made with rubber (probably because they are). Which is hardly realistic and impossible to train certain aspects of swordfighting (windings against your opponent's sword, for example, which is where a steel blunt is exactly the best implement for that exercise).

okiphia wrote:... I want to be able to fight with the real blades, simply for the ability (I would not do so unless my life was truly threatened)

I know the dangers of real blades, and I'm not just about to go slicing someone open because I have an urge to whack things with sharpened steel...

Aye, it is my personal philosophy that at least one person in any size social group should know how to make a decent lemon meringue pie and/or transmute a wind to the far opening. Life is a little more complete if you have a myriad array of obscure skills under your belt, no matter what they are.

Problem is, most pie-makers don't like being around most sword-fighters. Weird, that. You really have to have a Quixotic streak in order to responsibly enjoy swordsmanship— an ideal to seek that, at the same time, makes everyone around you think you're a little nuts.

okiphia wrote: ...Anyway, I have searched the internet, but I keep coming up with things like the Forgotten Realsm, LoTR, and other fantasy replica swords, which I'm certain wouldn't hold up to any kind of stress. ...

As an amusing aside: I know a guy (on a forum) who managed to get a commission from Peter Lyon, the smith who made the swords in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. This was shortly before he stopped taking custom orders. Time to completion: six years. He was busy, you see...