Who is Talos?

[Wolfie]

What is a God?

[N'wah Nern]

There may not be much difference between a "god" and a lesser spirit, only a matter of degree, not kind. Perhaps even categorization, as in mortals simply deciding what their pantheon should look like.

From Overview Gods and Worship:

It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods. This my own conjecture, garnered from the apparent ability of the larger temples to attain blessings and assistance from their God with greater ease than smaller religious institutions.
There are reports of the existence of spirits in our world that have the same capacity to use the actions and deeds of mortals to strengthen themselves as do the Gods. The understanding of the exact nature of such creatures would allow us to understand with more clarity the connection between a Deity and the Deity's worshipers [sic].
The implication of the existence of such spirits leads to the speculation that these spirits may even be capable of raising themselves to the level of a God or Goddess. Motusuo of the Imperial Seminary has suggested that these spirits may be the remains of Gods and Goddesses who through time lost all or most of their following, reverting to their earliest most basic form. Practioners of the Old Ways say that there are no Gods, just greater and lesser spirits. Perhaps it is possible for all three theories to be true.

[Incarnal]

What is a God?

Well, in TES there are a variety of different types of gods. There are the primordial gods, such as Sithis, then there are the Aedra and Daedra, and then there are the lesser gods that are more or less extremely powerful mortals such as Whitestrake, Vivec, and the Tribunal.

The really interesting thing is that it seems that people aren't locked into their roles, as we have two proven examples of characters in games who have ascended from mortal to Aedra and Deadra, respectively being Talos and the Champion of Cyrodiil.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Likewise, the Aedra and Daedra themselves may become mortal or dead. Most of the Aedra are in fact functionally dead, specifically the Earthbones. The Ehlnofey were the weakened remnants of many of the once immortal spirits who created Mundus, and were forced to reproduce simply to survive as a race. It would even be theoretically possible to kill the ones who are now known as Daedra, though this could only happen in a very specific way. It's implied at the end of each Kalpa or cycle of existence, the great spirit Alduin appears and destroys the entire world, and all things return to the pre Dawn era. At this time, all old spirits return to their original forms and Lorkhan moves freely. If he can then talk some of these spirits into creating Mundus again, which it's implied he's done countless times, the ones who are currently Daedra could become Aedra or vice versa, and their roles could be reversed in the next world.

[Wolfie]

What is a God?

Well, in TES there are a variety of different types of gods. There are the primordial gods, such as Sithis, then there are the Aedra and Daedra,

and then there are the lesser gods that are more or less extremely powerful mortals such as Whitestrake, Vivec, and the Tribunal.

I know that but my point is what is a God?

a powerful spirt? a thing with so much power? someoe who has worshipers?
what?

what makes those things God's? and not just power deitys? where do we define what is and is not a God?

They where inmotral in till they could no logner get to the heartThe really interesting thing is that it seems that people aren't locked into their roles, as we have two proven examples of characters in games who have ascended from mortal to Aedra and Deadra, respectively being Talos and the Champion of Cyrodiil

Akary did to.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well Vivec's admition that he wasn't a god for one thing. There is no way I'll concede that the tribunal were gods, especially when there are so many people who find it hard to except Talos as a god

Exactly, I'm not saying the Tribunal were Gods, per se, certainly not Gods in the same manner as the Aedra and Daedra, but I am saying that the Tribunal are on a similar level to Talos, who is not a God of the same calibre as the Aedra and Daedra.

[Biggsydaboss]

Duruza would you say Arkay isn't a god either. I think Talos achieved full godhood. He certainly exists on the same plain of existence the other Aedra do & there seems to be evidence that he's only getting stronger & maybe to actually take the place of Shezzar. This might be the reason the Thalmor are trying to wipe out Talos worshippers in an attempt to delay or even deny the possibility of this happening. As is in lore Shezzar was most definitely pro race of men. Though I maybe wrong, what's going on would certainly give credence to my hypothesis.

[OblivionDuruza]

I've already addressed Arkay, in a couple of posts. There are two theories on Arkay, and depending on which is true, my opinion on his status as a God changes, but the fact is we do not know much about Arkay, in comparison to what we know about Talos. I'm not willing to commit to a judgement on Araky without more facts on which to base it on.

I'm undecided on the point of Arkay as such, partially because of his sphere (it could have been he was reborn as a man or similar - some notion related to life and death perchance), and partially because we don't actually know that much about him, whereas we know a lot about Tiber Septim the man.

I'd like to know more about Arkay too, because if we believe The Monomyth, then I can see why he is a Divine, being the 'son' of Akatosh and all, but if he were really just a simple Shopkeeper, then his place would also be in question.

My view on the banning of Talos is that it is primarily a strategic device of the Thalmor to insight tension and warring throughout the Empire. The Mer might be enjoying removing Talos, because he's an affront to everything they are, but it's not so much a crusade in my eyes, as the spoon they use for stirring the pot.

[Biggsydaboss]

Duruza. It's hard to tell Thalmor tactics as they play a 'long game' approach. They're as much linked in with the spiritual side of ES universe as they are with the mundane. Certainly both ideas (yours & mine) have merits & based on available fact. It's a time will tell situation. As ES tends to lean towards the fantastical I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a spiritual conspiracy, maybe even an attempt to bring down the Divines, who have for the most part supported the human imperial reign & dominion. It's Akatosh's blessing that kept the Septim line on the throne. A human who was made part of the divines (whether his godhood is in dispute, he was made a divine) Unless you believe that all of what was said about his apotheosis was falsehood. That does fly in the face of excepted wisdom & available fact.

Also my apologies for covering old ground I'm using an iPhone to post, it's easy to miss what has been said, as the device can be quite tricky to follow the written word with.

Ps I gather that generally you don't believe that any mortal could rise to the ranks of becoming an Aedra. The Champion of Cyrodiil became a Daedra & I'm pretty sure that's canon. If so why not an Aedra. Again sorry if we've touched on this. I'm going to go & fire up the old Pc & retread this thread at some point today

[OblivionDuruza]

Well, I could potentially see the Thalmor having some crazed scheme related to reforging the Merethic Era, but I'd be convinced that they aren't mindlessly following their faith, and that there is at least some element of both theology and strategy behind their actions. They're too clever to be on a crusade, they've waited to patiently, and their past actions give the indication that they are a devious bunch, much like, if not more so than the Empire.

As for the Champion of Cyrodiil, I did have a theory on that issue as well, if somewhat far-fetched, but still based, what I believe to be, relatively heavily in lore. Here is the gist of it:

Here is a theory that was raised on one of the wiki talk pages covering the subject. Basically the author theorised that the Sheogorath seen in Oblivion/Shivering Isles was in fact Arden-Sul, possibly after he attained 'godship' after defeating Jyggalag as the PC did. IF this were the case, then could it not be feasible that the PC would be partially forgotten as Arden-Sul was, being remembered as the Hero, but not as becoming Sheogorath?

I was interested by this concept, although not totally convinced, and so I decided to look for more solid evidence to support it, drawing on my knowledge of Heretics and Zealots from the game, and the in-game mentions of Arden-Sul.

Here are my findings, supported by relevant wiki pages:

We know that the Heretics believe that Sheogorath is a 'false ruler' and that they uphold the belief that Arden-Sul is the true lord of the isles. Could it not be conceivable that when Arden-Sul became Sheogorath, as the PC did (humouring the above theory for a moment), that they are indeed remembering the old Sheogorath as 'Arden-Sul' and the real Arden-Sul as the "man who needs to be overthrown", as he was not their original and 'true' master?

We also know that the Zealots believe that Sheogorath was an Aedra bound in human form, and that Arden-Sul was a manifestation of him. Is it not conceivable (again humouring the above idea), that Sheo is a god, be it Daedra or Aedra, in a human form, that being Arden-Sul, and that the Sheo the PC encounters, is that "personification of Sheogorath's mortality," being Arden-Sul in the 'form' of Sheogorath?

The Heretics believe that Arden Sul is the true lord of the Shivering Isles and that Sheogorath is just a man who needs to be overthrown. The Zealots believe that Sheogorath is a living god (an Aedra bound in human form) and that Arden-Sul is the personification of Sheogorath's mortality. The beliefs of the maniacs and the demented contradict each other almost completely. It is left open-ended to the player who or what Arden-Sul is or if he is even real.

More on the prophet can be read in this book.

For me, I'm not a huge fan of the idea that mortals can simply ascend to godhood, at least not at the same level as the forces that made Nirn, and gave those mortals life. I'm not saying that mortals can't achieve god-like status, but that it's a different thing. Why amongst all the heroes of men, the many Saints of various religions, is it that Tiber Septim is so special? I'd like to know, truly, what made him such. My best guess is that he is the replacement of Lorkhan/Shezarr, but if so, it's not on his own merit that he is a god, is it? I'm inclined to believe a mixture of the Heresy and the Orthodox views on Talos, I see the Orthodox as likely an embellishment of the facts, made to portray Talos as better than he really was. By the same toekn, I see the Heresy to be a little too harsh on Tiber, likely the combination of slander and rumours. Therefore, a balance must be struck to reach the truth, at least for me.

[Biggsydaboss]

Duruza. On reading what you have wrote & delving deeper in to lore. I've come across some quite strange. I've been basing a lot of my hypothesise on what I believe to be canon. Things told to me through my gaming experience. I've clearly not taken in to account that most if what I'm told through the games is one particular point of view, namely The Blades. Who of course believe Talos was transformed in to a god. It's integral to their duties to believe this. There is no actual canon saying it is the case. Bethy have decided to leave that to the individuals own views. With this in mind I find myself having except the possibility that Talos maybe at best some kind of guardian spirit, similar to Pelinal. Though I still believe that Talos is a god/divine, there isn't enough evidence to fully support my hypothesis, in fact as ironic as it is, it's a matter if faith.
However much your points are cogent, I still feel it's as much based on faith as any point I could make. Of course the real issue is that this shines a different light on the Thalmor. They might be right in SOME of their actions. Which makes me shudder.
Anyway maybe we should agree to disagree on the Talos subject.
I'll leave with what I believe to be a Nietzsche quote "lies aren't as great an enemy to the truth, as conviction". Certainly something I should've considered.

[OblivionDuruza]

I think that's more than fair, because to be honest, I don't really disagree with you on this one, maybe we just share slightly distorted versions of the same viewpoint.

As for your point about the game and the view of the Blades, I think that's something of great importance you've identified. That the games position us in certain ways. Even in Skyrim, depending on whether you side with the Greybeards or the Blades, the Empire or the Stormcloaks, you can see a very different version of the truth. That's why you have to play each side, it's why you can spend so long in a single game obsessing on one point

I sort of hold true to one belief on the matter. Truth is not fact, truth is what people believe to be fact, that is my view. To find fact, I think it's important to look at each truth and to weigh them relative to each other. There's a shadow of fact in every truth, in every opinion. Talos certainly was an amazing figure, certainly a God, of that I am confident.

[JoeyDestructo]

I feel like Talos is simply a representation of Anu and Padomay..... about 50/50....

through change he brings stasis, then reappearing, and bringing about more change....in a recurring cycle


just my .02

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Well, that would make him like Lorkhan, and he's certainly got an air of Shor about him. The lore gently nudges us in the direction of believing Shor has manifested himself many times before. Talos was the second to most recent and the Dovakhiin is the most recent, possibly. Shor always brings both change and stability, paradoxically.

[Arkasas]

Firstly, http://www.imperial-library.info/conten ... -kirkbride.

Two specific posts would seem to confirm that Talos is indeed divine.

What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos:

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

This would seem to imply that the reason the Thalmor want to destroy the worship of Talos is to break the world and return to the Dawn, a typical Altmer goal. It also implies that Talos is in fact a god, or that he is...

Lorkhan and his avatars:

1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N

Lorkhan all over again. And we know how much the Altmer hate Lorkhan. This post spawns tons of questions, however. All of the major Shezarrines are listed, aside from Alessia, and some of these names seem to repeat. This could imply that Hjalti Early-Beard, Talos, and Tiber Septim are completely different people, and solve the Underking problem. At the same time, it raises many questions.

I would bet N is the Dragonborn.

[OblivionDuruza]

The first post is very recent, and MK hasn't worked for Bethesda for years, so I'm not so ready to accept that one as some of his earlier posts. As for the second, it makes no doubt about the fact that Talos is a Shezzarine, however, considering that most of the other Shezzarine's are not Divine, how does this prove that Talos is truly a Divine and not a minor God/Saint?

[Loocem]

To go off from what is being discussed at the moment, but relevant to Talos, I feel. I noticed that Talos means Stormcrown in the old Ehlnofey. This is not much different from the name of Ulfiric StormCLOAK. Does anyone see any deeper connection between the two? Perhaps Ulfric is meant to rid Tarmriel of the Aldmeri Dominion once again? Stormcrown did it first, next it will be the Stormcloaks.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

"Tullius" seems similar to "Talos" as well. I think Bethesda did that on purpose to leave us wondering who the real good guy is.

[Loocem]

Perhaps, but I find many less similarities to draw from Tullius than Ulfric, but you may be right. I personally think that the lore choices in the game will be with the Dohvakiin choosing the Stormcloak route.

[OblivionDuruza]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Canon ending is either, Bethesda has made each and every Faction in Skyrim fairly flawed and there is a whole lot of moral ambiguity in the game.

As for a connection between Ulfric Stormcloak and Stormcrown, I'd put it down to the fact that the Nords/Atmorans aren't all that creative But there is possibly a connection Bethesda is trying to make, although I think it's more poetic than Lore.

[Loocem]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Canon ending is either, Bethesda has made each and every Faction in Skyrim fairly flawed and there is a whole lot of moral ambiguity in the game.

Could you elaborate on what you're saying here?

[Wolfie]

He thinks the idea will be the Thalmor atack before someone wins the war IIRC

[Zero-Sum]

Talos is not Tiber Septim, but Tiber Septim is Talos, Wulfharth is Talos, Zurin Arctus is Talos. Talos is the oversoul of Tiber Septim, King Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus, all three of whom mantled Lorkhan and when their souls merged, becoming Talos, Talos effectively filled in Lorkhan's role as Mundus. As Lorkhan was said to have tricked the Elves of their immortality, this is the Thalmor's reason behind banning Talos worship. Through this whole Tulpa thing in TES lore, the Thalmor want everybody to believe that Talos was just a normal dude. Thus, Talos really WILL become just a normal guy.

The thing is, Talos-Tibbykins-Wulfy-Arctus wasn't just your plain old average warrior-Emperor like Titus Mede. By Oblivion, Tibbykins ACHIEVED CHIM (according to Bethesda, because they needed a clever way to fill in the plothole of Cyrodiil being referred to as a jungle in the old texts, but Cyrodiil was not so in the fourth game) - else how was he able to reshape Cyrodiil?

But I digress.

If Talos is rendered mortal through the Thalmor's clever brainwashing Tulpa trick, then they can undo creation, since Talos is Mundus, or at least reinforces Mundus as the oversoul of three Mantles of Lorkhan (and possible Shezzarines).

[Reven]

The first post is very recent, and MK hasn't worked for Bethesda for years, so I'm not so ready to accept that one as some of his earlier posts. As for the second, it makes no doubt about the fact that Talos is a Shezzarine, however, considering that most of the other Shezzarine's are not Divine, how does this prove that Talos is truly a Divine and not a minor God/Saint?

Not long ago in the Skyrim Nexus boards someone commented that Talos achieved CHIM and through it he made himself a Divine. I agree with that theory.

Anyhow first post!!!

[Pilaf The Defiler]

That idea is reinforced in Camoran's Commentaries when he says "CHIM - those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King once jungled!" That's a reference to how Talos changed the climate of Cyrodill from jungle to temperate European type climates.

Of course, a powerful enough Dragon Shout could theoretically do that as well...or some other form of divine magic. An appeal to the other Divines could also accomplish such a miracle, as it's been implied to do in the past.