Haters of the Thalmor.

[OblivionDuruza]

I actually do like Ondolemar a fair bit, as a character. It's a nice touch that the player is able to

Spoiler:

acquire his aid in Diplomatic Immunity in order to cause a distraction. After which he will feel betrayed - rightly so, and will attack the player on sight

Sure he ain't perfect, but he feels like a developed and 'real' character. Just my two tangential cents.

[NLN]

I really-really-really wish we get the Summerset Isles as either a big DLC or even better, the next game. Where the Dovahkiin goes genocidal on the elves, and you have to defend THEM. I wonder how the opinions would change then...

I hate the Thalmor btw, but I don't think all the elves support them, even the Altmer. I could see the Dunmer opposing them actually, if there was a Morrowind that could make a stand. Their banning of the Talos worship just screams intentional provocation, more than actually wanting to ban the god. It sure managed to throw Skyrim into a civil war and further weaken the Empire. They are good at underhanded tactics, I give them that. As for mer against men, I don't think the Empire was suppressing them at all, maybe at first with Alessia (who had a VERY good reason), but later it seemed to mostly leave all the provinces alone.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Speaking generally, the Alessian Empire was a result of centuries of brutal (in many cases) enslavement at the behest of the Ayleids and the other Aldmer in the region. Those who survived the rebellion had developed a deep-seated hatred for Mer, in part because it helped them (psychologically) survive both their captivity and the ensuing conflict. Without looking at the details of their circumstance, it is easy to write them off as cruel (perhaps evil), but they had learned their behavior (as most in their situation do) from their former masters.

The Thalmor, in their circumstance, have not felt the brutal dictatorship of Men, nor have they really suffered at all. In fact, it was the Empire who came to the defense of Summerset, and possibly sacrifice many of their own lives, during the most recent invasion by King Orgnum from Pyandonea. So no, I have no sympathy at all for the Thalmor or their "cause". It's their envy and resentment that fuel them, not a cause for freedom or a reaction to oppression. They seek to, not conquer and unite (as Talos did), but conquer and subjugate.

That's my dime...

[drumgodrob]

Whilst i voted for the 'love' option, i do not absolutely love them. They have a very good point in wanting to regain Tamriel as their own, especially since it was taken by Men in the First Era (i think it was the first).

I can also see why they want to get rid of Talos worship, since he is not actually an Aedra. But it is doubtless that he is a God because of what happened with his armor in Oblivion. Furthermore, i don't think it is a good idea for the Thalmor to go into foreign lands and torture/ kill Talos worships, as it will only make the Nords in this case hate them more (or perhaps this is what they want ).

The thing is though, in my opinion the Empire is now unfit to rule over Tamriel. Surrendering to the Dominion after countless human lives were lost has basically ensured that all those people died in vain. If the Empire was truly a force to be fit to rule, they should have fought on to the end, if necessary. While the elves are arrogant, this proves that they are confident and have the potential to rule the land.

HOWEVER, i don't think it would be right for the elves to enslave Men like the last time. The thing is, i don't think this is the Thalmor's goal. They simply want to take back what was taken from them milennia ago and be rulers of Tamriel once more.

Overall, the Thamor are definately not evil, rather, they just want their power back. This is understandable. I think that the way they are going around executing Talos worshippers is wrong however. Though i would definately like to see them as the rulers of Tamriel in the future, providing they don't enslave people again.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, i don't really like the way the Thalmor are ebing portrayed as the 'bad guys' in game, either. If there is a DLC involving them (and i really hope there is) i REALLY hope we can join their ranks.

[noobishlord]

Even though I've been playing Mer exclusively of late, I still hate the Thalmor with a passion. That's why I gradually lure one away from his/her traveling companions, and kill him/her whenever I see a group of them out and about.

[Tiber-Septim]

Wow, great poll. -.-

lol, It's refreshingly simple. What don't you like about it, though?

There's no neutral option towards the Thalmor? Or mild versions of like and dislike?

Sorry about that.

[Wolfie]

The empire for the last how many Era's? have been nice to mer when they could out right inslave them and treat them like crap, they dont, when man rebeled it was cause of how they where treaed, thalmor just rebel so they can do that again, somehting I'm aginst

Now if and when all high elfs get atacked\inslavred, I'll be on the front line kicking empires butt

[Arkhon]

I think that just the idea of rebellion against the Empire itself (act of treason) and then military aggression (!) is enough as a proof to hunt down Altmer responsible for the creation of the Aldmeri Dominion and the rest who supports it. Death sentence to the betrayers of the Empire, I say!

[Tiber-Septim]

The empire for the last how many Era's? have been nice to mer when they could out right inslave them and treat them like crap, they dont, when man rebeled it was cause of how they where treaed, thalmor just rebel so they can do that again, somehting I'm aginst

Now if and when all high elfs get atacked\inslavred, I'll be on the front line kicking empires butt

I agree. The empire had been relatively nice to elves before the Almeri Dominion formed. It was the Thalmor who attacked the empire in the first place. Besides the elves are just hungry for power.

[Frost Mage]

The Thalmor's opinions are very well supported, and so much so that it would be difficult sum it up without suffering from Carpel Tunnel syndrome, so let's just say I approve of the Thalmor .

You approve of the Mer supremacy over the non-elves?

With the way that the Stormcloaks approve of Nord supremacy over other races, I feel like they're just being defensive, even if the Thalmor have been around longer, it gives them an even better reason to stand up for what they believe.

[Feanor]

I like the Thalmor as an organization, their military intelligence and political shadow-gaming is very effective. It amuses me how they were able to bring down the Blades, push the Empire out of Valenwood and Elsweyr, and force it to accept their demands.

[Will Zurmacht]

I don't hate the Thalmor, I respect them as a dangerous rival deserves respect. And who knows, maybe the challenge of the Dominion is just the kind of thing a strong emperor will need to reinvigorate the Empire.

[Frost Mage]

That's true, Will. Right now in history, the Empire doesn't have too many strong opinions on anything besides Talos worship, which primarily comes from them being sided with the Thalmor. They are very intelligent and influential, and should be respected, just like the Stormcloaks are respected, Eight know why they are so much, but they are.

[GhostOfNumenor]

The Thalmor's opinions are very well supported, and so much so that it would be difficult sum it up without suffering from Carpel Tunnel syndrome, so let's just say I approve of the Thalmor .

You approve of the Mer supremacy over the non-elves?

With the way that the Stormcloaks approve of Nord supremacy over other races, I feel like they're just being defensive, even if the Thalmor have been around longer, it gives them an even better reason to stand up for what they believe.

I don't quite agree with that comparison. The Stormcloaks have their issues, but they don't go into foreign lands, collect all those who don't believe in Talos, and then torture them. They also don't believe that all other races should feel the crack of their whip out of a major superiority complex. Thalmor, however, have and do.

[OblivionDuruza]

The empire for the last how many Era's? have been nice to mer when they could out right inslave them and treat them like crap, they dont, when man rebeled it was cause of how they where treaed, thalmor just rebel so they can do that again, somehting I'm aginst

Now if and when all high elfs get atacked\inslavred, I'll be on the front line kicking empires butt

I agree. The empire had been relatively nice to elves before the Almeri Dominion formed. It was the Thalmor who attacked the empire in the first place. Besides the elves are just hungry for power.

Wait so you both hate the Thalmor, but I know for a fact at least one of you seems to love the Stormcloaks Logic?

[Vitellius]

The Thalmor are a naturally oppressive regime that governs the Aldmeri Dominion; lore in the game (Flight from the Thalmor etc.) as well as the attitudes of certain elves implies that the Thalmor are just as harsh in their rule over Mer as they are in their enforcement of the White-Gold Concordat. The choice of name with the 'Aldmeri Dominion' is also somewhat sinister; it suggests they want to hark back to (for the Elves) glory days of the first Domininion where they ruled Tamriel with an iron fist.

Not saying the Empire are the Good-guys however, I don't think any Empire can be inherently 'good', but they at least have gradually abolished slavery throughout Tamriel and saved it from destruction a few times. Until recently (Skyrim), the Empire didn't persecute religions either, and it is obviously something they don't want to do. Wheras the Thalmor (who view themselves as descendants of the Aedra) detest the notion of a human God and are willing to send Justicars all the way to Skyrim. This may be more an attempt stir up the locals against the Empire; anyone who's read The Great War knows most of the Legions who helped the Empire eventually push the elves back were Nords.

No matter what your opinions are on the Thalmor, the writers clearly want us to see them as the bad guys if not actually evil, which irks me a tad as I'd like a Elder Scrolls game where the bad guy wasn't an elf, but mainly because when I tried to play a High Elf they didn't treat me any different - they accused me of heresy and tried to put me down

[Incarnal]

Apart from my High Elf and Khajiit, all of my characters hate the Thalmor. Let's be honest here, they're clearly up to something even more evil than they'll admit to!

[OblivionDuruza]

But that is exactly my point, what suggests that the Thalmor have some inherently 'evil' agenda? Simply because they oppose the crumbling Empire of Man? Does that mean the Argonians have a secret agenda too? There is no evidence to prove that the Thalmor wish to enslave man, even if they wish to conqour Man and erradicate the rule of Man, is this not what the Alessians did to all Mer, even though their gripe was only with the Ayleids?

As for all TES villains being Elves, people forget Jagar Tharn, The Underking, even minor villains like the Blackwood Company or the 'New' Fighters Guild. And Dagoth Ur is hardly an 'elf', he's a being corrupted by the Heart of Lorkhan. There have been a number of Mer who have acted as villains in the past, but there have been just as many mean and even beasts who have taken on that mantle. Let's not draw conclusions about the Mer or Altmer as a collective just because one of the two most powerful Mages, Mannimarco (the other also being an Altmer, Galerion) was an Elf (it fits seeing as the Altmer are the most powerful Mages on Tamriel) or because Mankar Camoran, another Mage, is half Altmer, half Bosmer, or because the Thalmor pose a threat to the Empire.

[Rynkar]

I dislike the thalmor just for the reason that they seem to not care what 'man' think.
They don't even tried to hide their disdane for talos or man.
Don't they even have a p.r department?

[Jeff]

But that is exactly my point, what suggests that the Thalmor have some inherently 'evil' agenda?

Playing the game suggests that quite a bit.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well that is a subjective conclusion. In my eyes it suggests more so that the Thalmor agenda is against that of Man and in opposition to that of the Blades, but other than that, I see no inherent evil greater than that which can be observed in the Empire or Stormcloaks in terms of torture, racism, murder, etc. Now who is to say that the Men races or Empire is more right or more good, or even less 'evil' than the Thalmor simply because they are two opposing forces at work in Tamriel?

[Jeff]

The Empire and Stormcloaks are in the Middle of a Civil War.

The Thalmor are not. In fact, they did sign a peace teaty.

The Thalmor are in Skyrim as Embasadors, and Observers... Not as Law Enforcers... As mentioned by NPC's in game. What they are doing is kidnapping, torturing, and killing, which they do not have the Authority to do, which makes it illegal... and actualy, due to the Peace Treaty... an Act of War.

This is not about what has, or has not happened in the PAST... this is about what is happening in Skyrim NOW.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Duruza,
It's akin to someone coming into Melbourne under guise of peace and diplomacy, and then "secretly" kidnapping, torturing, and killing all those who root for the Soceroos, or Wallabies (trying to keep it as apolitical as possible). The Thalmor have no real cause, and certainly no right, to do what they're doing. That by itself is "evil"; add in their motives behind it, and there is no question, or at least shouldn't be.

[Red Guardian]

Indeed. Only because the mighty Empire surrendered, the Thalmor kinda proclaimed themselves "Gods" and are abusing their power.

They are in Skyrim as ambassadors, they are in Skyrim to report any potential threats to the Aldmeri Dominion. Not to hunt down Talos' followers....

[Syrkin]

I was working on the MQ last night, and hit a certain point that highlighted some issues for me. Rather than couch it in a tag, this might provoke more chat so:

SPOILER

Spoiler:

I got to the point where I needed the Jarl of Whiterun to help trap Odahviing in the Dragonreach, and I had to facilitate the peace treaty. More people attended than I had expected, and I hadn't done ANY of the civil war quests yet, preferring to stay out of politics and just be THE Dragonborn.

Tullius brings the elven ambassador, Elenwen, and Tullius and Ulfric are sparring about her being there. I said I didn't think she should be there, and she said something like "I'll let the Empire and Stormcloaks fight it out and (either) negotiate[/] or destroy the winner." That sounds like dominating, untrustworthy behavior to me. Evil? Who is to say, but deliberately conquering people just to control them, with no concern for the wants or well-being of the conquered certainly doesn't ring with 'good'.

As a side note, after negotiating the cease-fire, General Tullius seemed more reasonable, and maybe even concilliatory, than Ulfric (Bullwyf from 13th Warrior). I suppose you could take that as a more militant and educated background for an Imperial General, compared to a rule-by-strength Viking. But while I don't like the Empire in theory, I also don't give a rat's hiney about Ulfric either. I'm hoping after I complete the MQ I can continue to play and kill both Tullius and Ulfirc. OH PLEASE OH PLEASE

END SPOILER



Edit: I was headed to Ragnvald last night and just South of Markarth were some Stormcloaks in a battle against Thalmor Justicars. I assisted in killing the Justicars, and during the combat in swoops an Ancient Dragon who roasts the lot of us. Dragonborn prevailed, a fiery wind saw the Dragon disappear and dead Thalmor littered the field. And still the Stormcloaks verbally assaulted me! grrrrrrrrrrr

I have about 140 hours into this character, level 73.66 now, and I would probably set the game aside for a bit before replaying it. But I really like the variables the game allows. Kudos Bethesda.