What is Nords problem with dark elves?

[OblivionDuruza]

Well hey, I've never denied that fact, in fact I've raised that exact point a number of times, in this thread alone more than once. The Stormcloaks dislike and distrust anyone who isn't a "True Nord" and therein lies the one true issue I have with them, this concept of them as "True Nords".

And I beg to differ on the matter of House Hlaalu. It wasn't significant members of House Hlaalu who supported the Twin Lamps, in secret, before the Civil War on slavery now was it? Of course a Redoran would claim that all House Hlaalu sees is money, but that's hardly true just as it's hardly true that all House Redoran know is war. It's only fair that if House Hlaalu can make allies within the Empire they should benefit from said Empire, the Empire was inevitable, even Vivec knew it and Houses Indoril and Redoran in particular had no qualms about walking all over House Hlaalu pre-Empire, aking Hlaalu lands for themselves and so on.

[Avron the S'wit]

I'm going to agree to disagree and say we leave old Dunmeri politics out of a thread about the Nords and racism.

[OblivionDuruza]

A fair request if ever I saw one.

But Chaos the point still stands, just as it should be true that the Dunmer don't deserve to be protected more so than any other, equally that does not mean that they do not deserve to be protected. Bethesda has done a strategic thing in placing them in such torment in Windhelm and just because the Argonians are expected to live in squalor in Skyrim, or the few Khajiit in the province live as nomads and are shunned from the cities, does not detract from the fact the Stormcloaks have made a policy of singling out all Mer simply because they are Mer, and because a few Mer pose a real and terrible threat to Man.

My point, fighting amongst ourselves over who is more worse off at the hands of the Stormcloaks in this scenario doesn't help anyone. Nobody is really in a pleasant situation in Skyrim, including the Stomrcloaks, who I can acknowledge have a right to be displeased by the conditions of the Concordat and by the ever present threat of the Thalmor.

[Chaos the N'wah]

*Snort* All Chaos wanted was the "Dunmer have it worse off" repealed, he does not back any unwarranted slanting on his Khajiit

On the irony of my House love, I find it odd that this is the same case with the Stormcloaks: I dislike the Nords, but love the Stormcloaks, maybe it's because I prefer to follow the message of individual rule than caring about "a few spoiled apples ruining the bunch"...or my apathy towards the Empire in previous games has fostered into disgust...

While we're on the subject of the few ruining the whole, is it me or do the Stormcloaks seem to hate the Dunmer more than the other mer races. I mean, there's plenty of Altmer and Bosmer in Stormcloak towns and cities that seem to not be harrasses as much, but Windhelm is this sort of Nexus of reverse logical hate, where the town's resident Altmer is left to her own devices, but the Dunmer are singled out. This goes beyond simple singleminded racism against mer, this is them in particular.

[Avron the S'wit]

While we're on the subject of the few ruining the whole, is it me or do the Stormcloaks seem to hate the Dunmer more than the other mer races.

Call me naive, but I still think this just has to do with the longstanding hatred between Morrowind and Skyrim. Those guys slobbered each other up and down across the Eras, and they still haven't gotten over all the nose bleeds. The Dunmer are too stubborn for it and the Nords are far too proud. Plus, it's really easy to pick on them. The Dunmer really got the short end of the stick in the Fourth Era - so why not rub some salt in the wounds, eh?

[metaphysician]

*cough* I cannot see any viable moral argument for supporting or joining the Stormcloaks that manages to supercede the "you are working for Hitler" aspect. Even "enemy of my enemy" doesn't work, since while the Thalmor are much worse than the Stormcloaks, the Stormcloaks have no realistic hope of doing anything against them.

[Chaos the N'wah]

*cough* I cannot see any viable moral argument for supporting or joining the Stormcloaks that manages to supercede the "you are working for Hitler" aspect.

Annnddd we're back to blowing things out of proportion, honestly people, racism without wholesale slaughter does not equate genocide...if you can't see this...I suggest you go to your local asylum

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

Who couldn't have a problem with those xenophobic, daedra-worshiping, necromantic, cockney slavers?

I've wanted to kill them all with fire ever since Morrowind; their resistance only makes them burn more slowly!

"you are working for Hitler"

BRAAAP! BRAAAAP!! GODWIN'S LAW ALERT! GODWIN'S LAW ALERT!! BRAAAAAAP!!!


And to everyone throwing around "racist" and violating another nameless yet similar law like the above:

I was going to say, in a matter of continuing a conversation that my friends often refer to as ‘DGAFing’, that I’d like to drop the term ‘racist’ right now because it’s an overused popular culture hot button that gets thrown around like a rag doll in Garry’s Mod. After playing through the Stormcloak Rebellion of Skyrim, it appears I actually have plenty to talk about without propagating a generation of people accusing others of racism so they can appear morally superior and politically correct in the social spotlight for one happy gleaming moment.

I'm too lazy to link source to this rightful bashing of lolberals; google it.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Dunmer abhor necromancy, in fact Morrowind was the first, and only Province to outlaw the practice, before the Mages Guild got in on the act. Additionally, the Dunmer abolished slavery, so holding those things against them, even after centuries, is a little shallow.

*Snort* All Chaos wanted was the "Dunmer have it worse off" repealed, he does not back any unwarranted slanting on his Khajiit

Well if that is all, then sure, I don't think the Dunmer have it worse, per se, but they've got it pretty bad, as Avron points out, not just in Skyrim, but in the 4th Era in general, which has made it necessary for them to flee to Skyrim, only to face much the same torment. It's ironic, and cruel.

On the irony of my House love, I find it odd that this is the same case with the Stormcloaks: I dislike the Nords, but love the Stormcloaks, maybe it's because I prefer to follow the message of individual rule than caring about "a few spoiled apples ruining the bunch"...or my apathy towards the Empire in previous games has fostered into disgust...

See I'm the opposite, I love the Nords, and dislike the Stormcloaks, and the Black-Briars and Silver-Bloods for that matter. Then again, I love the Dunmer, and hate the Camonna Tong for much the same reasons, they're racist, highly xenophobic and corrupt.

While we're on the subject of the few ruining the whole, is it me or do the Stormcloaks seem to hate the Dunmer more than the other mer races. I mean, there's plenty of Altmer and Bosmer in Stormcloak towns and cities that seem to not be harrasses as much, but Windhelm is this sort of Nexus of reverse logical hate, where the town's resident Altmer is left to her own devices, but the Dunmer are singled out. This goes beyond simple singleminded racism against mer, this is them in particular.

Well the impression I get from Galmar and a number of generic Stormcloaks is that they hate the Thalmor, but then Rolff seems to hat hate Dunmer extra specially, and although he and his friend are only two NPCs, they represent a bigger group in terms of translating game to world. The age old conflict between Dunmer and Nords certainly comes into it, but as Dagon Fel and Western Skyrim indicate to a degree, the Nords and Dunmer can live in relatively close proximity without killing each other constantly, so I don't buy it as an full explanation, while I do acknowledge it's a significant predisposing factor.

[Berzerker]

Who couldn't have a problem with those xenophobic, daedra-worshiping, necromantic, cockney slavers?

I've wanted to kill them all with fire ever since Morrowind; their resistance only makes them burn more slowly!

"you are working for Hitler"

BRAAAP! BRAAAAP!! GODWIN'S LAW ALERT! GODWIN'S LAW ALERT!! BRAAAAAAP!!!


And to everyone throwing around "racist" and violating another nameless yet similar law like the above:

I was going to say, in a matter of continuing a conversation that my friends often refer to as ‘DGAFing’, that I’d like to drop the term ‘racist’ right now because it’s an overused popular culture hot button that gets thrown around like a rag doll in Garry’s Mod. After playing through the Stormcloak Rebellion of Skyrim, it appears I actually have plenty to talk about without propagating a generation of people accusing others of racism so they can appear morally superior and politically correct in the social spotlight for one happy gleaming moment.

I'm too lazy to link source to this rightful bashing of lolberals; google it.

Yes let's hang all the Dunmer for their ancestors' crimes sounds perfectly reasonable yes?

I think it's a little disturbing how so many people here think blatant racism is justified because of something that happened 200 years ago that most modern Dunmer had nothing to do with.

[SilentPsycho]

I think it's a little disturbing how so many people here think blatant racism is justified because of something that happened 200 years ago that most modern Dunmer had nothing to do with.

You might just want to look up the average age of a Dunmer. If they were not alive then, then it was probably their parents, who would pass down their culture.

[FrostyInferno016]

The entire issue that I personally have with all of this is that everyone equates this kind of racism/xenophobia with racism/xenophobia in the real world. They are entirely different. In TES, each race, in one shape or form, intends to destroy/rule another, or to at least put their interests ahead of the others'.

The races of Tamriel are totally and extremely different from each other: politically, culturally, and spiritually. In some cases--as with the Nords and Chimer/Dunmer--even their gods killed (or tried to kill) one another. So to hold this situation as something comparable to anything real-world, it just doesn't work, IMO. Cyrodiil, in the 3E, is supposed to be a major exception, as the center of the former Empire.

[metaphysician]

I feel zero shame in invoking Hitler comparisons. Look at Ulfric's overall strategy, his rhetoric, his general goals. Its straight out of the Nazi playbook circa 1932. The major differences have to do with him not having total control over the country.

Trust me, if he does take over, the genocide will come. It just will probably be a more pragmatic genocide, rather than "death at the expense of all else," because Ulfric isn't also insane.

[Giordano]

The entire issue that I personally have with all of this is that everyone equates this kind of racism/xenophobia with racism/xenophobia in the real world. They are entirely different. In TES, each race, in one shape or form, intends to destroy/rule another, or to at least put their interests ahead of the others'.

The races of Tamriel are totally and extremely different from each other: politically, culturally, and spiritually. In some cases--as with the Nords and Chimer/Dunmer--even their gods killed (or tried to kill) one another. So to hold this situation as something comparable to anything real-world, it just doesn't work, IMO. Cyrodiil, in the 3E, is supposed to be a major exception, as the center of the former Empire.

So all races are supposed to return and stay in their native provinces never talking to each other ever again? Or do we return to our home provinces while the Stormcloaks forge a new 'Empire' in the name of Nord civilization?

All races of Tamriel need each other economically and even realistically, you can't expect everybody to move after generations back to their homelands?

"Skyrim for the Nords" - should we kick out the Nords out of Cyrodiil too? "Cyrodiil for the Imperials!" "Hammerfell for the Redguards!" "Morrowind for the Dunmer!" ? Oh wait, that's racist! >:[

[OblivionDuruza]

I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect the races of Tamriel to live together, in relative harmony, they've been doing it for decades and it's not true to say people have a lack of understanding about the dynamics of Tamriel when they see a group of particularly racist nationalists and dislike them. Look at over half of Skyrim, from the farmers to the Imperial aligned Jarls. No real problem with other races there, so why is it a fact in your eyes that races cannot live together, simply because they aren't all as closely related as humans are?

[metaphysician]

Indeed, the many races of Tamriel lived in relative harmony for centuries. Its part of why, for all its faults, I consider the Empire to have been a genuine good thing for the world. Not that the Empire brainwashed people or anything, but by establishing broadly applicable laws and enforcing a level of overall peace, they tamped down on excesses of hatred. Plus, a pretty large population started thinking of themselves as Imperial Citizens first and foremost, rather than members of individual ethnicities and cultures.

[GhostOfNumenor]

I mostly agree with metaphysician. The Empire made themselves the peace-keepers during the Septim Dynasty. Hostilities were there, but were relatively muffled, or suppressed. During the events of Arena (Jagar Tharn) a lot of the provinces released some of their tensions on each other.

The ancient tensions between the Nords and Dunmer is encapsulated in Windhelm, the oldest city in Skyrim, and it's actually a wonder that the Dunmer were invited there to begin with, let alone that they have remained. It's like the Bosmer inviting Khajiit to stay in Falinesti and expecting everything to remain amicable.

I think the problem with this situation is that, while the Nords aren't the most tactful in expressing their..concerns, the Dunmer need to understand that the Nords have little trust for them and actively appease their fears by giving into some of their traditions. If that doesn't help, then it's probably beyond repair, but they should at least try.

[The Pale Lady]

Nobody likes it when you get floods of helpless refugees in your country, requiring you to use your resources to aid them.

^ This.

I think the Nords would face the same resentment if their positions were reversed.

[Giordano]

Nobody likes it when you get floods of helpless refugees in your country, requiring you to use your resources to aid them.

Rolff sits around drinking all day. What does he do, exactly? The dunmer woman he harassed works for a shipping company, many dunmer work relating to the docks (and Argonians too), they own shops, and run innkeeps. Rolff just drinks and the town beggar is a human.


The only resource dunmer are using up is real estate, which Jarl Ulfric seems to forget the taxes he gets from the Grey District...

[GhostOfNumenor]

I agree with Arch-Mage Matt's notion. It takes capital to maintain a population, as well, sometimes, as blood. Not to mention, the Nords probably feel a bit crowded. Not condoning the notion, only empathizing.

[ArgonianDunmer]

But how are they crowded? If that were the case wouldnt you expect some Nords to have been displaced? There's no shortage of housing in Windhelm, there's even room for the PC.

[OblivionDuruza]

GhostOfNumenor makes a valid point, the Nords have been aggressive towards the Dunmer for an age, dating back to the time when the alliance of Nerevar and Dumac drove the Nordic invaders in 1E 416.

What is interesting to see, is that although the majority of Nords have shown great largesse in their treatment of the Dunmer, the Stormcloaks are not so quick to do so, in spite of the fact even Ulfric's father tolerated and accepted the Dunmer in his city.

Part of it is the fact the Stormcloaks are so galvanised by hatred of Mer, as exhibited in Galmar Stone-Fist in particular. Another aspect of it, I'm confident, is the fact that the Stormcloaks are as extreme and 'nationalist' as you get, in Skyrim and across recent history. They're like House Indoril on steroids, and they'd rather kill everyone else than die in the name of their beliefs (many Indoril killed themselves rather than live under the Empire). The problem is unfortunately, that while much of Skyrim has moved on, some have not, and these few happen to be situated right in the path of the Dunmeri refugees, and these few have inherited the Dunmer from their more welcoming fathers, only to wish to have nothing to do with the Dunmer who cannot relocate with ease and have nowhere else to go.

[Elegost]

Nobody likes it when you get floods of helpless refugees in your country, requiring you to use your resources to aid them.

^ This.

I think this is certainly Nords main problem, I personally have never been a fan of an elves but the Dunnmer I have met seem fairly nice, compared to Galmor stone fist and his ass h*le cronies.

I do love how well bethesda have created all this racisum etc in there game, it makes it feel so realistic!