Scourge of the Grey Quarter

[Berzerker]

I'd rather have him and see how he can attempt to make better his policies rather than have an Imperial pawn who can not even speak without the Empire hushing her like a child.

"Hush you can't speak, the Big boys are talking."

So Ulfric may actually change his policies when the War is over and he'll be able to do something. What will the Empire do?

Well I'd rather not risk putting a tyrant on the throne.

[Wolfie]

Well I'd rather not risk putting a tyrant on the throne.

What do you call a tyrant?

The empire seems more like a tyrant

[Berzerker]

Sorry but if Stormcloak can't*or won't* rein in his troops I don't want him any where near Skyrim's high throne.

But once he is, he will have the power and resources to, you notice the empire dose nothing to rein the pepole on the Khajit?

Do you see people going out of they're way to antagonize the Khajiit?Sure they're not allowed into the city but they are left alone.

[Wolfie]

Do you see people going out of they're way to antagonize the Khajiit?Sure they're not allowed into the city but they are left alone.

Which is worse, being picked on but being alowed in or not being alowed in?
to me saying "you cant come in" is far worse, at least the dark elfs have a chance of living in citys.

[OblivionDuruza]

I beg to differ, I'd rather be allowed to do my business on the plains, then be allowed to do my business in the cities and get abused as I attempted to conform to Nordic society. I'd rather not be bullied but excluded from something, then be included and bullied.

Sorry but if Stormcloak can't*or won't* rein in his troops I don't want him any where near Skyrim's high throne.

But once he is, he will have the power and resources to, you notice the empire dose nothing to rein the pepole on the Khajit?

Because people aren't abusing the Khajiiti traders, they are perpetuating a horrific stereotype that actually does have some basis (seeing as the Khajiiti traders are actually fences for the Guild), but they aren't harming them. I'm not saying it isn't wrong to segregate the Beast races as has occurred in Skyrim, but it's not the same thing.

[Wolfie]

Because people aren't abusing the Khajiiti traders, they are perpetuating a horrific stereotype that actually does have some basis (seeing as the Khajiiti traders are actually fences for the Guild), but they aren't harming them. I'm not saying it isn't wrong to segregate the Beast races as has occurred in Skyrim, but it's not the same thing.

And the dark elf one dose not? look at all the dark elfs that are bad

Dont you see what your doiing? your reubking evrey sing race for somehting that the Dark elfs also do, and then turn a blind eye to it

If the kahjit where alowed in it would be better, it shows the dark elfs have it better, yes they are buliied but at least they are alwooed in the socity

Also there is no proof anywhere that Stormcloacks do anything but bullie them, some me one moment of them harming a dark elf, you will hear about buliies but none of them are killed

and if you say "well just cause its not in game" its also not in game if the dark elfs being picked on deserve it or not I.E may really be spies, not saying they are but if you can pull that card so can i

[drumgodrob]

To be honest, i'd rather not be allowed into society than be allowed in and be constantly bullied, threatened, and oppressed by the majority of the population. While there is no evidence YET of physical abuse (at least none that i am aware of) at several points in my game i have seen Stormcloaks and their supporters throw many threats of death and torture at the Dunmer people. And i'm sure that, given the chance, the cousin (or brother) of Galmar Stone-Fist would gladly beat up a dark elf who gets in his way. Have you heard the insults he shouts at them as he wanders around the Gray-Quarter?

That being said, however, i am not completely against the Stormcloaks. I realise that they want their independence, and are quite justified in doing so, but if they could just be a bit more open minded towards the elves and beast races, i think they would gain a lot more supporters.

[Wolfie]

To be honest, i'd rather not be allowed into society than be allowed in and be constantly bullied, threatened, and oppressed by the majority of the population

The fact remains is that evrey one is raccist to the kahjit.
we have no proof if they are not becuse no one will go near them and their is almost no one even seen talking to them.

why is their nothing on them? Simple cause pepole are blinded by their love for the dark elfs

they are very much opresed, forced to live out side.

While there is no evidence YET of physical abuse (at least none that i am aware of) at several points in my game i have seen Stormcloaks and their supporters throw many threats of death and torture at the Dunmer people

Yep, and evrey single one of them if you talk them they are jerks to you to, dark elf, nord what ever you are, plus most if not all are
A. drunk
B, jerks to evreything and are just down right wrong.

And i'm sure that, given the chance, the cousin (or brother) of Galmar Stone-Fist would gladly beat up a dark elf who gets in his way. Have you heard the insults he shouts at them as he wanders around the Gray-Quarter?

Yes, but he dose not = all stormcloaks

That being said, however, i am not completely against the Stormcloaks. I realise that they want their independence, and are quite justified in doing so, but if they could just be a bit more open minded towards the elves and beast races, i think they would gain a lot more supporters

Even the empire dose not let the khajit in to their citys, so Stormcloaks are not the only ones not to be open minded.

[drumgodrob]

You are right on the fact that the Empire is perhaps not being 'fair' enough on the Khajiit. In some certain ways, they are as bad as the Stormcloaks. However, that does not give either side the right to do something just because the other side is doing it (i know that's not what you're saying, but i thought i might as well bring it up).

However, some people like Ysolda in Whiterun actually feel sorry for the Khajiit, so they are not hated by everyone. And while the Khajiit may be forced to live outside, it's not like they have been oppressed to the point where they have been banned from selling anything anywhere. Have you seen how close they camp outside of Dawnstar? Literally one more step and they would be in the city. If the guards as a majority had a massive problem with the Khajiit like the 'Cloaks do with Dunmer and Argonians, they would definately not want the Elsweyr folk that close to towns.

Galmar does not = all 'Cloaks, but his views are shared by alot of them, namely his cousin and Ulfric, and very likely a lot more.

Finally, yes, most of them are drunk. But that doesn't excuse them from being racists, does it?

[GhostOfNumenor]

Hello, first time poster.

Nords are generally a closed-minded people. I don't fully blame them; many of their were slaves of the elves, or in someway suffered the Night of Tears. Not to mention, their god having been killed by the Chimer and Dwemer probably didn't help things. So, a people with a culture like the Nords, seeped in legends and traditions, don't change their opinions or dispositions very easily.

That still doesn't make it fully right, but I can see why they'd feel the way they do.

[OblivionDuruza]

Welcome to the Forums GhostOfNumenor! I agree with you on one level, there is a cultural friction here, but I don't think it's central to the issue. The Nords showed a great degree of largesse towards the Dunmer in their hour of need, even despite hundreds of years of Nordic aggression against the Dunmer (most of the conflict between the two in the past has been Nords invading Morrowind after all). That is to say, most Nords did.

And the dark elf one dose not? look at all the dark elfs that are bad

I have no idea why you hate Dunmer so much. The Dunmer do not discriminate against the Khajiit, the Khajiit are allowed in Dunmeri cities and towns, can have the same irghts and can rise to the same heights in any Dunmeri faction or guild.

[Wolfie]

I have no idea why you hate Dunmer so much. The Dunmer do not discriminate against the Khajiit, the Khajiit are allowed in Dunmeri cities and towns, can have the same irghts and can rise to the same heights in any Dunmeri faction or guild.

Um where do you see this happen in morrowind? if your talking about the MC, so casn dark elfs in skyrim

I do not hate them, I just am not blindly following them.
Your saying look at all the bad khajit, what about the bad dark elfs?
Your saying look at the dark elfs and how they are treated yet ignore the khajit nad orc's
You say for the dark elfs that just cause its not in game dose not mean its not there, but anyone eles becuse its not in game means its not there.

I point out a few bad apples and you say its not evrey one of them yet you put four sotrmclcoks and say it is all of them.

[OblivionDuruza]

I never said anything about bad Khajiits for starters, I'm saying that it is true enough to say that many are thieves, because they actually are. It's not true to say Dunmer are stinking up Windhelm or that they aren't contributing to society. Those are baseless lies.

Additionally, I'm focusing on Dunmer in this thread because the thread is about Dunmer, go check out the OP again if you don't believe me.

Additionally, I'm talking about the fact Khajiit NPCs can even hold positions of influence in Morrowind, and that the Dunmer aren't systematically trying to segregate the Khajiiti populace of Morrowind.

[Wolfie]

I never said anything about bad Khajiits for starters, I'm saying that it is true enough to say that many are thieves, because they actually are. It's not true to say Dunmer are stinking up Windhelm or that they aren't contributing to society. Those are baseless lies.

What do they do?
They have their own stores, their own places, they dont go to the nords pub, you can say thats becuse of how they are treated
but show me how these elfs help?
I'm not saying its their fault but as far as I can tell
its them making their own club with no nords, their own area of the city and they all say they want to stay

Soooo what excatly is the problem?, its not like they cant take a carrige, they have enough gold, but many say "I WANT" key word want "to stay"

Additionally, I'm talking about the fact Khajiit NPCs can even hold positions of influence in Morrowind, and that the Dunmer aren't systematically trying to segregate the Khajiiti populace of Morrowind

Name one that was not
A. in a "ilgeal" guild
or in the empire house. and in a dark elf guild.
Mages guild is not, and fighters guild are NOT dark elf guilds

[OblivionDuruza]

Challenge accepted: meet Baissa, just off the top of my head.

Also, do not lecture me on the fact the Mages and Fighters Guilds are not Imperial Guilds, I'm well aware of that fact. Additionally, don't you see the irony in your own statement? You said that I was calling Khajiits bad by saying that they actually are Thieves Guild fences in Skyrim, and then you ask me to find one not in an illegal faction.

Also, it's not as simple as getting on a carriage. The Dunmer would need to find new homes, they'd need capital to start a new life, something they don't have because they make a meagre living as it is on the outskirts of Nordic society. Besides, I've met many who say they wished they'd kept walking before settling in Windhelm, and wish they could move, but never one that has said they wanted to stay. Please show me one who has and I'll go meet him or her in-game.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Unless compromise is met between the two stubborn sides, or either give in/up, I think it's going to add badly someone. Ultimately, given history, I think it'd unfortunately be bad for the Dunmer, but either way..there's likely going to be death.

Duruza's right to a point, the Khajiit don't have it as bad-off, per se, but more so because the Khajiit:

a) Don't resist their treatment (commendable, to a degree)
b) Are accustomed to the nomadic life in the first place

If either/neither of those two factors didn't exist, the Khajiit would definitely have the worst treatment (exposed to all of Skyrim's wild-horrors)

[Wolfie]

]Challenge accepted: meet Baissa, just off the top of my head.

it says nothing of guld she is in
and the
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Vivec_Foreign
not excatly "dark elf" area

Also, do not lecture me on the fact the Mages and Fighters Guilds are not Imperial Guilds, I'm well aware of that fact. Additionally, don't you see the irony in your own statement? You said that I was calling Khajiits bad by saying that they actually are Thieves Guild fences in Skyrim, and then you ask me to find one not in an illegal faction.

Becuse ilegal factions work out side of normal dark elf socity

Also, it's not as simple as getting on a carriage. The Dunmer would need to find new homes, they'd need capital to start a new life, something they don't have because they make a meagre living as it is on the outskirts of Nordic society.

and they wont work for nords, and there is proof they can

so whos fault is that?

Besides, I've met many who say they wished they'd kept walking before settling in Windhelm, and wish they could move, but never one that has said they wanted to stay. Please show me one who has and I'll go meet him or her in-game

Mathily guy who works at the club says he has ties there and decides to stay

and Faryl
thats two of the six I've found so far, and Faryl even says his brothers want nothing to do with the nords and refuse to work for them, so they do not help the socity, refuse to work for the nords, hmm seems like it adds to the problem
Now nords are not blameless but it is proof that not ALL storm cloack hate dark elfs

and then you have the "Drummer of Skyrim" found in the hullu house
which if i was a nord and I read that I'd be worried about them

Faryl the guy you love to point out so much even says he has to hear his brothjers harp about "imjustices" (and thats how the subtiles do it to) he seems to get around just fine with the nords.
Gets enough gold and lives okay, and he says nothing about nords (other then the jerk) bullyign him.

He has not giving up anything of his and yet works with stormclocks

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

Er.. so then the Thieves Guild is a "Dark Elf Guild"?

[Wolfie]

Er.. so then the Thieves Guild is a "Dark Elf Guild"?

I figured it went with "ilegal"

[ArgonianDunmer]

Wolfie, the Dark Elves haven't done anything like the Stormcloaks? When have they treated one race as badly as the Stormcloaks treat every race that isn't "true Nord"? Just because they used to take slaves doesn't make them racist. Just because they don't like outlanders at first doesn't mean they do not accept others into their society. Do you even know the Dunmer that well?

[Velothi]

The Dunmer would need to find new homes, they'd need capital to start a new life, something they don't have because they make a meagre living as it is on the outskirts of Nordic society. Besides, I've met many who say they wished they'd kept walking before settling in Windhelm, and wish they could move, but never one that has said they wanted to stay. Please show me one who has and I'll go meet him or her in-game.

Whose to say they'd have a better life in Solitude? Or Whiterun? Any city?

The Nords (in general) would have a distaste for the Dunmer. Take Balgruuf the Greater, who says (openly to you when you say the Empire almost killed you) that he doesn't mind who the Empire kills. He does not 'concern' himself with such things.

Some may justify it on the Civil War - but he says its even more so because of it.

Put the Dunmer in any city? They'll face repression in greater or lesser magnitudes found in Windhelm.

While they are (more or less) segregated in the city - we can't really say it'll always be so. We know Ulfric will rebuild Skyrim after the Civil War and we don't know what he'll exactly do. Will he try to better the relations with the Dunmer and Argonians?

Attempt to destroy the negative relationship between them? (Both socially and economically)

who knows - we'll soon find out though.

[Wolfie]

Wolfie, the Dark Elves haven't done anything like the Stormcloaks? When have they treated one race as badly as the Stormcloaks treat every race that isn't "true Nord"? Just because they used to take slaves doesn't make them racist. Just because they don't like outlanders at first doesn't mean they do not accept others into their society. Do you even know the Dunmer that well?

I know them very well

And their is prove the Sotrmcloacks acept a high elf and a dark elf bard and a dark elf farm hand

so guess what? they acept the races to
the high elf even says the dark elfs just are not trying to relate to the Nords.

And how do the sotrmclocks treat wood elfs, redgaurds, Orc's badily?

they dont like them till they prove useful becuse they are not "one of us"
just like the dark elfs dont like anyone that is an outside to their ways and not "one of us"

show me one beast race persno in morrowind who is apart of a dark elf guild?
that is not ilgeal

[OblivionDuruza]

Wolfie, the difference is, that the reaction of the Stormcloaks changes based upon race, which makes it racism. I know the Dovakiin can be accepted as a member of any race, but think of what would happen to an Altmer if they joined the rank and file, or a Dunmer. Likely they'd be abused by their colleges, probably thrown a Marine Corp.-esque beating, or worse. Even if they were not physically abused, they'd be outcast and bullied by the "True Nords" in the ranks who would not be quick to trust an Elf. I mean, they're not even quick to trust a Redguard, even when he is Dovakiin, the one exception. Additionally, wouldn't it be stupid of Bethesda not to let a Mer join the Stormcloaks, cutting off that Questline for the player? The Dovakiin is an exception, not an example of what happens normally? The only Stromcloak NPCs are Nordic.

Also, Wolfie, you showed one yourself, that Morag Tong assassin. In Morrowind the Morag Tong are very legal.

[Wolfie]

Wolfie, the difference is, that the reaction of the Stormcloaks changes based upon race, which makes it racism.

no it dose not, if your not a stormclocaks then they dont like you.
we have no proof they ever turn down anyone, and Ulfric even says "if you will help us we will have you"

I know the Dovakiin can be accepted as a member of any race, but think of what would happen to an Altmer if they joined the rank and file, or a Dunmer.

there are two high elfs, andf two dark elfs living in Ulfrics city just fine, they have not joined ture, but their is no proof of their atempt to joining

Likely they'd be abused by their colleges, probably thrown a Marine Corp.-esque beating, or worse. Even if they were not physically abused, they'd be outcast and bullied by the "True Nords" in the ranks who would not be quick to trust an Elf.

And their are
Dark elfs like that as well

I mean, they're not even quick to trust a Redguard, even when he is Dovakiin, the one exception. Additionally, wouldn't it be stupid of Bethesda not to let a Mer join the Stormcloaks, cutting off that Questline for the player?

show me proof they would not acept a dark elf if he asked to join?

The Dovakiin is an exception, not an example of what happens normally? The only Stromcloak NPCs are Nordic.

Why would anyone eles want to join? why would a worrior join the mages guild?
why would a fighting join the thifes guild
this "guild" is to free them to worship talos and rule them selfs, the others have no indcation of wanting that or caring.

Also, Wolfie, you showed one yourself, that Morag Tong assassin. In Morrowind the Morag Tong are very legal.

You mean a Thall in it?
Not what I call have the same chance as evrey one.
it should also be noting he is working for the blaes and er go the empire.

[OblivionDuruza]

Wolfie, you're being overly stubborn, the fact is there are no non-Nord NPCs in the Stormcloak army, they often scream that they fight for the "True Nords" and they often voice their displeasure towards Mer. These are the facts, there is no way to prove that they turn down Mer or other races, because there are actually no non-Nord Stormcloaks. At least in the Empire you see Imperials, Redguards and Bretons.

Additionally, the fact is the Dunmer do let outsiders into their guilds and factions. In fact, a Nord holds one of the highest positions in Great House Hlaalu. A Nord, whom is a member of the race you and Frosty would have us believe that the Dunmer cannot get along with.

I don't know what you're personal issue with slavery is, but slavery has very little, if anything to do with the treatement of the Dunmer at the hands of the Nords in the year 4E 201.