Scourge of the Grey Quarter

[Wolfie]

"People from the city" she says, meaning Windhelm, which is Stormcloak

But he is not a stormcloak?
so how would he know?
Pre tell me why do you Always, take the word of who ever is aginst the Stormcloaks?

Even when Ulfric says things, you some how see lies and pure evil in it, even when there is no reasson to think this, you constantly point out flaws of his when many others you aplued have the same ones.

[OblivionDuruza]

I do not, because she is not against the Stormcloaks. For me, the most honest sources are those not tied to the War, Balgruuf before he joined the Empire, but mostly, the little folk, the farmers and such, who have no reason or motive to lie to protect the Empire or the Stormcloaks, and who only tell it how it is.

Why then, by the same token, is the Empire such an evil in your mind, when countless NPCs in-game, may of them Nords, say that things were better under the Empire, or that they prefer the Empire to the Stormcloaks?

[Wolfie]

I do not, because she is not against the Stormcloaks. For me, the most honest sources are those not tied to the War, Balgruuf before he joined the Empire, but mostly, the little folk, the farmers and such, who have no reason or motive to lie to protect the Empire or the Stormcloaks, and who only tell it how it is.

Balgruuf has just as many reassons i can think of

#1 both his assistains mettion the gold helping, yet he claims its not about that

If Ulfric had said that you would not buy it, even when there is NO resson to think this.
As for the Farmers, he most likely heard it form his owner who of couse would say that is why.

Why then, by the same token, is the Empire such an evil in your mind, when countless NPCs in-game, may of them Nords, say that things were better under the Empire, or that they prefer the Empire to the Stormcloaks?

where in this whole thread did I say the empire is evil? the empire is not evil, the empire just failed in its job and no longer has a right to hold Skyrim
they are not evil, they just cant stop the Thalmor as been proving.

[OblivionDuruza]

Sorry "owner" She's a paid farmhand, not a slave. The Dunmer abolished slavery, and yet you keep brining it up as if the Dunmer are evil because they practised it long ago, under the sanctions of the Septim Empire mind you.

Additionally, only Proventus mentions gold, not Irileth, and Balgruuf says that the Jarls were given no choice, which fits the MO of the Empire. The gold probably helped soften the blow though, I've never said it didn't. Again, what's your point?

Re: Empire, not this thread, the other thread you've been arguing against the Empire in for the last half hour. Why have they failed? Many believe they have not but you still side with those who claim they have, how is that any different?

[Wolfie]

Sorry "owner" She's a paid farmhand, not a slave. The Dunmer abolished slavery, and yet you keep brining it up as if the Dunmer are evil because they practised it long ago, under the sanctions of the Septim Empire mind you.

The owner thing was my bad, I did not inted to bring it back up, the reasson it was sanction was cause vivic said "we keep our stuff"
while the empire refuse to let the Nords worship their god

Additionally, only Proventus mentions gold, not Irileth, and Balgruuf says that the Jarls were given no choice, which fits the MO of the Empire. The gold probably helped soften the blow though, I've never said it didn't. Again, what's your point?

they both talk bad about the treaty.

Re: Empire, not this thread, the other thread you've been arguing against the Empire in for the last half hour. Why have they failed? Many believe they have not but you still side with those who claim they have, how is that any different?[/color]

Yep, still never called them evil, they just are no longer whats best for skyrim.

[Berzerker]

Oh how wonderful this thread is still going in circles it's like watching a political or religious debate.

[Jingles]

People are making a mistake here in confining the debate to the relationship between nords and dunmer. Take the other races for example, like the Argonians - they've integrated as best they can, and they're not even allowed inside the city walls, let alone being confined to a small ghetto within the walls like the elves. This isn't some nord reaction to the Dunmer supposedly refusing to integrate, because even if they did, as the argonians and that Hlaalu guy show us, they'd still be treated like crap by Ulfric and his goosestepping Nords.

[Berzerker]

People are making a mistake here in confining the debate to the relationship between nords and dunmer. Take the other races for example, like the Argonians - they've integrated as best they can, and they're not even allowed inside the city walls, let alone being confined to a small ghetto within the walls like the elves. This isn't some nord reaction to the Dunmer supposedly refusing to integrate, because even if they did, as the argonians and that Hlaalu guy show us, they'd still be treated like crap by Ulfric and his goosestepping Nords.

Every time this has been brought up it's ignored so I've stopped trying.

[Wolfie]

People are making a mistake here in confining the debate to the relationship between nords and dunmer. Take the other races for example, like the Argonians - they've integrated as best they can, and they're not even allowed inside the city walls, let alone being confined to a small ghetto within the walls like the elves. This isn't some nord reaction to the Dunmer supposedly refusing to integrate, because even if they did, as the argonians and that Hlaalu guy show us, they'd still be treated like crap by Ulfric and his goosestepping Nords.

Uh Argonians are not even in the empire citys, so whats your point?

[Berzerker]

People are making a mistake here in confining the debate to the relationship between nords and dunmer. Take the other races for example, like the Argonians - they've integrated as best they can, and they're not even allowed inside the city walls, let alone being confined to a small ghetto within the walls like the elves. This isn't some nord reaction to the Dunmer supposedly refusing to integrate, because even if they did, as the argonians and that Hlaalu guy show us, they'd still be treated like crap by Ulfric and his goosestepping Nords.

Uh Argonians are not even in the empire citys, so whats your point?

The point is they aren't forced to live outside the city walls

[Wolfie]

The point is they aren't forced to live outside the city walls

I'm sorry but I'm confused here, what are you trying to say?
Ulfric treats them bad but so dose the other side, same with Kahjit

[Lady Nerevar]

I think what he's trying to say is that Ulfric is specifically discriminating against Argonians (and Dunmer), as opposed to the Empire, who just sort of doesn't care about them. There's two Argonians living in Solitude - Jaree-ra and Gulum-Ei. There's also four in Riften, proving that it's not so much Nords or Stormcloaks doing the discrimination as Windhelm itself. It's location and political history make it quite different from the rest of Skyrim.

[OblivionDuruza]

Exactly. The problem isn't Dunmer/Nord, it's systemic from the Stormcloaks hate of everything that doesn't fit the build of their "Ture Nord" society. Some have a personal hate for the Dunmer above all else, some have a hate for the Altmer above all else, but in general, the Stormcloaks only really like those "True Nords" who side with them, they don't even like the Nords who side with the Empire.

[Wolfie]

Exactly. The problem isn't Dunmer/Nord, it's systemic from the Stormcloaks hate of everything that doesn't fit the build of their "Ture Nord" society. Some have a personal hate for the Dunmer above all else, some have a hate for the Altmer above all else, but in general, the Stormcloaks only really like those "True Nords" who side with them, they don't even like the Nords who side with the Empire.

Uh did you read his post?

proving that it's not so much Nords or Stormcloaks doing the discrimination as Windhelm itself.

He is sayign the oposite of what you said

[OblivionDuruza]

Wolfie, I did read the post, I am agreeing with the sentiment that it's not just about Nords and Dunmer:

People are making a mistake here in confining the debate to the relationship between nords and dunmer.

But frankly for me, Windhelm is as Stormcloaks as you'll get, so the problem is still inherently a Stormcloak one. I am allowed to have my own opinion on the matter, and I am allowed to agree with others in part or in full in doing so.

[Arkhon]

I think what he's trying to say is that Ulfric is specifically discriminating against Argonians (and Dunmer), as opposed to the Empire, who just sort of doesn't care about them. There's two Argonians living in Solitude - Jaree-ra and Gulum-Ei. There's also four in Riften, proving that it's not so much Nords or Stormcloaks doing the discrimination as Windhelm itself. It's location and political history make it quite different from the rest of Skyrim.

That's a good point I wanted to bring up but I forgot... The "beast races" (Argonians) are mistreated in Windhelm too.

Exactly. The problem isn't Dunmer/Nord, it's systemic from the Stormcloaks hate of everything that doesn't fit the build of their "Ture Nord" society. Some have a personal hate for the Dunmer above all else, some have a hate for the Altmer above all else, but in general, the Stormcloaks only really like those "True Nords" who side with them, they don't even like the Nords who side with the Empire.

The Stormcloaks are basically Nordish nationalists who would like to see Skyrim free from foreign influence, including 'immigrants'. BUT, first and foremost, their main enemy as of now is the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion in all its forms which include Nordish "traitors" who back up the Empire for whatever reason. I can bet that in long run if the Stormcloaks would "free" Skyrim from the Empire's and Dominion's influence they would do anything they can to hunt down foreigners with assumption that the main target would be the Elves.

By the way, regarding the "Windhelm only" issue, I disagree with it. Why? Simple reason, look at the Khajit caravans - they're not allowed to enter the cities because people, Nords in general, assume the they are "thieves" and "smugglers". Ysolda in Whiterun points it out. Plus, Ulfric refuses to send any aid to attacked caravanas in his hold. All of this, I personally think, is a strong proof that Nords who side up with the Stormcloaks/Ulfric are nothing more or less than just nationalists who want LITERALLY Skyrim for the Nords; at least without the elves and beast races.

Moreover, another good example which backs up this theory is that some Nords in their dialogue say "how the elves can rule over the man, what a shame" (something between the lines) so it clearly tells us that the Nordish nationalists, in general, have no problem with other Man in Skyrim (Imperials, Bretons, Redguards). They just want elves and beast races out.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Stormcloaks are a bit like House Indoril in that respect, except the only difference is that House Indoril is only actively opposed to the Empire, and their main goal is the preservation of the Dunmeri Tribunal culture and the service of the Temple, not killing off swathes of non-Dunmer. You see I'd like the Stormcloaks a lot more if they were a little more like that (hell I'd probably support them, at least a lot more than I currently do), but as with everything in this new age of mature Skyrim, Bethesda had to go and [&@%!] it up and make the Stormcloaks a bunch of massive pricks.

[Velothi]

The main problem with the Stormcloaks is that Bethseda didn't develop them or give them much character besides being the rebels. The only character would be the conflict between the lower-rank and file members (who are the only racists within the organization and they actually have been open to other races such as Valmir and the player character) and the higher members. Such as Ulfric being more accepting of other races into the Stormcloak army or can not openly state his support for some races.

Mostly because it'd lead to a Schism in the Stormcloak Army. It's really a United Front of anti-Imperialism, composed of Religious elements, nationalist elements and true proletariant elements.

[Eltee]

And what about Ulfric's refusal to help ANY non-Nord communities in times of hardship? Tell the truth, it is many of the lower-downs like Ralof that express the noble character of the Stormcloaks. I wouldn't follow a heavy-handed tyrant like Ulfric if I were threatened with death. In the actions of Ulfric and Galmar, as well as the actions of the movement as a whole, the malevolent and overriding nature of the Stotrmcloak rebellion is shown.

[Velothi]

And what about Ulfric's refusal to help ANY non-Nord communities in times of hardship?

When you're the leader of an organization (which you failed to realize or organize based on racial unity and equality - and it has taken up on its own form); you have to maintain yourself in a proper manner so your lower members will not revolt, rebel or ultimately question you.

This is the problem of War, you can not be tangible and must force yourself to do things that may be bad or ultimately idiotic.

For Ulfric's case - he HAS to not help them. (Besides no source of evidence with this besides one Veteran in Windhelm stating this.) Other than Ralof - what other Stormcloak member embraces you like him? While most do accept you over time - he's the only one that does readily accept you.

So say he helps the Khajits or the Argonians or the Dunmer. How will his supporters take it? Who (most of the Jarls) are Nationalists. If he helps the prime enemy of the Nords, who would not grant the same rights to the Nords (Even Redoran has its major flaws), then he'll screw himself over publicly.

So he has to maintain himself as a Nordic-Savior. He can't help the other peoples not only due to the War (gotta maintain supplies to the warfront and try to survive) but he has to also because of his failure to organize the Stormcloaks into a Revolutionary Front based on Equality.

Ulfric has faults, and idealism. And Revolution is not a Dinner Party - it is a violent movement. Not everything goes according to plan and you can not help everyone.

[FrostyInferno016]

Happened with the retaking of Markarth; Ulfric had to send a message.

[The Silent Striker]

I don't feel any sympathy for the dark elves. They treated the argonians and khajiits like trash in morrowind, they deserve to be annexed. I bet the argonians will make the country better than the one it was; a dark land full of crime. Now, on the grey quater. I think the nords should stop being a**holes, and do something about it if they don't like it. They could at least do something like raise a petition to the jarl, rather than just moan and disrespect the dark elves. And you know where it says that nothing was expected of them, so they did nothing? I bet that the people who expected nothing, are the people moaning about it now.

[Berzerker]

And what about Ulfric's refusal to help ANY non-Nord communities in times of hardship?

When you're the leader of an organization (which you failed to realize or organize based on racial unity and equality - and it has taken up on its own form); you have to maintain yourself in a proper manner so your lower members will not revolt, rebel or ultimately question you.

This is the problem of War, you can not be tangible and must force yourself to do things that may be bad or ultimately idiotic.

For Ulfric's case - he HAS to not help them. (Besides no source of evidence with this besides one Veteran in Windhelm stating this.) Other than Ralof - what other Stormcloak member embraces you like him? While most do accept you over time - he's the only one that does readily accept you.

So say he helps the Khajits or the Argonians or the Dunmer. How will his supporters take it? Who (most of the Jarls) are Nationalists. If he helps the prime enemy of the Nords, who would not grant the same rights to the Nords (Even Redoran has its major flaws), then he'll screw himself over publicly.

So he has to maintain himself as a Nordic-Savior. He can't help the other peoples not only due to the War (gotta maintain supplies to the warfront and try to survive) but he has to also because of his failure to organize the Stormcloaks into a Revolutionary Front based on Equality.

Ulfric has faults, and idealism. And Revolution is not a Dinner Party - it is a violent movement. Not everything goes according to plan and you can not help everyone.

Sorry but if Stormcloak can't*or won't* rein in his troops I don't want him any where near Skyrim's high throne.

[Wolfie]

Sorry but if Stormcloak can't*or won't* rein in his troops I don't want him any where near Skyrim's high throne.

But once he is, he will have the power and resources to, you notice the empire dose nothing to rein the pepole on the Khajit?

[Velothi]

I'd rather have him and see how he can attempt to make better his policies rather than have an Imperial pawn who can not even speak without the Empire hushing her like a child.

"Hush you can't speak, the Big boys are talking."

So Ulfric may actually change his policies when the War is over and he'll be able to do something. What will the Empire do?