What is Nords problem with dark elves?

[Dark Spark]

There is, but the High King is the leader and representative of the Nords, ergo, one could say that the Nords invited them.

And the fact that he got blown apart, and half of the people in Skyrim shouted "Hooray!", doesn't mean a thing?

[Berzerker]

Yes, but not how you are looking at it. I am saying that they are living off Windhelm, are not helping them with the war, not even saying what side they believe in.

They are bascially Freeloaders

Not really since Ulfric basically dumped them in the slums not much they can do really and it's idiotic*IMO* to think the Dunmer or Argonians would lend aid to they're oppressors and like I said they have shops that generate income they are working so no they are not "freeloaders" just because they refuse to aid in a Civil War

[Berzerker]

There is, but the High King is the leader and representative of the Nords, ergo, one could say that the Nords invited them.

And the fact that he got blown apart, and half of the people in Skyrim shouted "Hooray!", doesn't mean a thing?

I'd say it means as much as half of Skyrim wanting Ulfric and his Cloakies dead for killing they're king and throwing they're nation into turmoil.

[ZeRoc]

There is, but the High King is the leader and representative of the Nords, ergo, one could say that the Nords invited them.

And the fact that he got blown apart, and half of the people in Skyrim shouted "Hooray!", doesn't mean a thing?

They were invited before the High King was blown apart, and as Duruza pointed out earlier,

the High King, the leader of the Nordic peoples, and the majority of Jarls welcomed and accepted the Dunmer, even Ulfric's own father. Only in recent times with the coming of the Stormcloaks rebellion has there been problems, and we've seen that the Nords have put aside age old conflicts with the Dunmer only for a new fear of Mer in general, caused by hate for the Aldmeri Dominion, which has nothing to do with the Dunmer, to take over control and destory any progress that had occurred previously.

[OblivionDuruza]

There is, but the High King is the leader and representative of the Nords, ergo, one could say that the Nords invited them.

And the fact that he got blown apart, and half of the people in Skyrim shouted "Hooray!", doesn't mean a thing?

If David Cameron got blown apart I'm sure half of the UK would shout hooray. If Obama got blown apart I know I'd shout hooray. And if Julia Gillard got blown apart the whole of Australia would go into national holiday mode. The fact is that an invitation was extended. How are the Dunmer at fault for the disunity of the Nordic populace? Why must they suffer because a minority in Skyrim want to go against the High King and the High Kings and Jarls of yesteryear and take Skyrim for the "true Nords."

[Chaos the N'wah]

Equally, the Khajiit, Argonians, Bosmer, Altmer and others are not freeloaders, but the Stormcloaks don't like them much either.

Equally? Hardly, Khajiit aren't allowed in any city and Argonians are shoved outside the walls of Windhelm, forced not into a district, but onto the docks with a single embassy to their names. Racism is everywhere and Dunmer are pitied only because they whine about it the most.

[Dark Spark]

There is, but the High King is the leader and representative of the Nords, ergo, one could say that the Nords invited them.

And the fact that he got blown apart, and half of the people in Skyrim shouted "Hooray!", doesn't mean a thing?

If David Cameron got blown apart I'm sure half of the UK would shout hooray. If Obama got blown apart I know I'd shout hooray. And if Julia Gillard got blown apart the whole of Australia would go into national holiday mode. The fact is that an invitation was extended. How are the Dunmer at fault for the disunity of the Nordic populace? Why must they suffer because a minority in Skyrim want to go against the High King and the High Kings and Jarls of yesteryear and take Skyrim for the "true Nords."

Because Cameron, Obama, and Gillard got their power by the number of votes behind them, not because of how many soldiers they mustered with pay and hereditary fealty bound by the land their friends happened to own.

[metaphysician]

Its important to remember two additional things:

1. Racism is hardly universal in either presence or magnitude. There are plenty of Nords who have no problem at all with non-Nords, and there are plenty of who hold some racist attitudes but wouldn't support pogroms and genocide.

2. More importantly, remember that Ulfric has been intentionally fostering supremacist sentiments for literally decades. He deliberately starts a civil war, then rabble rouses and blames every bad thing that happens to a Nord from Thalmor kidnapping your cousin to your uncle stubbing his toe on "outsiders". So, it only makes sense that supremacist and racist sentiments would be more common, as there is a demogogue actively perpetuating them.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well that isn't true for Gillard, but hey, politics is another matter. There is no solid evidence to prove Torygg did not deserve the throne, and we don't even know that it was Torygg who invited the Dunmer, it was most likely his predecessor, as he is described as merely a boy and we know the Dunmer have been around since the time of Ulfric's father's reign as Jarl.

@Chaos, equally being that the Stormcloaks are pricks to everyone who doesn't fit their build as "True Nords." But you have to admit, although the Beast races have it bad, they are simply excluded, they are neither accepted or abused, the Mer in Skyrim are not only shunned but threatened, assaulted and made to live in fear for their lives. Yes there are Dunmer up in arms about it, but they have right to be angry, they alone were invited and welcomed, only to face the treatment they have experienced at the hands of the Stormcloaks. I could get into an argument with you showing how the Dunmer have it worse, but it would be pointless and foolish to do so. The fact of the matter is, the Stormcloaks treat everyone other than themselves like [&@%!].

[Chaos the N'wah]

It's not like it's surprising that the Dunmer are treated badly in Windhelm, if the jarl of your town kills the king that welcomed you in the first place, I wouldn't expect anything good to come of it. And the Khajiit do have it worse, saying that oppression that you could escape from is worse than living outside the protection of civilization, everyday a fight for survival, and that you could likely die simply from pneumonia at any time is down right insulting. The Dunmer fled Morrowind with little to their name, why is it so hard now? They fled from the Argonian war machine as they slaughtered countless Dunmer already in peril from the eruption of Red Mountain, why is this racism so hard to overcome compared to all that? No, I have no pity for them if this is their defense. Why should we be surprised that a faction built around humanity's struggle against an elven government is racist against elves? Is it a good thing, no, but it is not something of a comparable nature to being exiled across a province for a stereotype.

Thjizzrini, Ashkin

[FrostyInferno016]

*cue the world's smallest violin*

What does anyone really expect in this situation? I've pointed it out in other threads that it is the Nords' right to be jerks to "outsiders" given that Skyrim is their land. If they have a legitimate reason (such as perceived freeloading, possible paranoia, general weariness, etc), all the power to them. If their gods see it as an affront, they've never been shy to let them know.

Is it a shame? Yes. I particularly don't like that Khajiits can't enter any of the city-proper's. But if that's how the Nords want to run affairs in their lands, so be it.

All this hoopla about the maltreatment of the other races is daft by itself, but the emotional investment by some into that particular piece is all the more. The PC is accepted anywhere and everywhere in Skyrim with little more than the rare comment if they are an elf. In fact, the only place you cannot enter without being a particular race is an Orc Stronghold, for which you must complete a quest.

Arguing over who's right or wrong is fun, but it all becomes petty malarkey when it just becomes a figure "8".

Elves are generally mistrusted in a land whose people fought them since nearly the dawn of time, and some of that land exude that distrust more than others. Some even use it for political gain. Such is the case every single day in real life, and the game is only the tip of that ice-burg.

So, OP, take away from this whole thing that the Nords and Dunmer have hated each for a very, very long time and that it doesn't take much to rouse either side into petty arguments. There are always exceptions, but they are generally almost natural enemies. (See Oblivion for racial dispositions if you'd like to see their interaction that way, too)

[Chaos the N'wah]

I like the gritty racism, it makes wonders for RPing, but this

*cue the world's smallest violin*

is disrespectful, keep your ego to yourself and let us revel in our pulpit stands of fictional bias

[FrostyInferno016]

Oy, my point ^
Gotta have a little sense of humor.

Never said I didn't like it, neither; simply pointing out that having an aneurism over the subject is somewhat...silly? If you have a better word, please fill it in.

I personally like the tension that still exists between the two sides, and the extra dimensions added to it. It allows a nice, almost elementary look into our own sociology, but there are some who take it to an unnecessary personal avenue.

[ZeRoc]

What is weird to me though, is that the racism felt different in Morrowind, the Dunmer hated everyone that wasn't a Morrowind born Dunmer, much like the Stormcloaks, but something about it just feels different.

[Kilomo]

The High King, the leader of the Nordic peoples, and the majority of Jarls welcomed and accepted the Dunmer

Then why are there no Dunmer in Solitude, and almost no Dunmer outside Stormcloack-controled territory?

[Chaos the N'wah]

What is weird to me though, is that the racism felt different in Morrowind, the Dunmer hated everyone that wasn't a Morrowind born Dunmer, much like the Stormcloaks, but something about it just feels different.

hmmm..like the Dunmer hated everyone by default, but the Stormcloaks actively try to hate you...something like that?

[FrostyInferno016]

Just thought I'd throw in: studies have conclusively shown that adversarial relationships produce significantly better results than relationships where everyone agrees. Perhaps this could secretly be a good thing.

[OblivionDuruza]

What is weird to me though, is that the racism felt different in Morrowind, the Dunmer hated everyone that wasn't a Morrowind born Dunmer, much like the Stormcloaks, but something about it just feels different.

Well because in Morrowind it was blanket xenophobia, not racism, while in Skyrim it's personal and it's racism tailored to your character. That's why it feels different, because in Morrowind your always an Outlander no matter who or what you are, while the Stormcloaks only treat you like dirt if you're not a Nord, and they do it in a way specific to your race, i.e. racism.

The High King, the leader of the Nordic peoples, and the majority of Jarls welcomed and accepted the Dunmer

Then why are there no Dunmer in Solitude, and almost no Dunmer outside Stormcloack-controled territory?

Because the Dunmer come from the East, not the West. Still, Ulfric's father welcomed the Dunmer while he was Jarl, which is why they were allowed to settle in the Gray Quarter in the first place.

[Wolfie]

Well because in Morrowind it was blanket xenophobia, not racism, while in Skyrim it's personal and it's racism tailored to your character. That's why it feels different, because in Morrowind your always an Outlander no matter who or what you are, while the Stormcloaks only treat you like dirt if you're not a Nord, and they do it in a way specific to your race, i.e. racism.

So its okay to be hated cause your not one of them and hate evrey one that is not one of them while the other side dose the same thing?

uh huh

[OblivionDuruza]

I'm just pointing out how they're different, not saying one is better than the other.

Besides, I liked how in Morrowind you became accepted by completing parts of the Main Quest, and I didn't mind occasionally being called an Outlander, because eventually it became more of a badge of honour than an insult, with questgivers and such telling me "you've done well Outlander" as they promoted me. That, and being called a Fetcher or a N'wah in combat is much more original than being called a grey-skin or a pointy-ear; or being told I'd make a nice rug (I'm sure you've heard that before Chaos ).

[Gurney]

As long-time members of the cosmopolitan Empire, "Nords" obviously don't hate foreign races as a rule, but individual Nords can of course, and there were times when that hatred sustained the Nords in times of war and conquest. A fine case of good race relations in Skyrim is that a previous "Harbinger" of the Companions was a Dunmer. Talk to Athis in the companions, he quotes the line "Even an Elf can be born with the heart of a Nord", spoken to him by Skjor when Athis joined the companions. The quote originally comes form an earlier time and was in reference to the previous Dunmer harbinger and it shows the racial equality attitude is both historic and current. I use the companions as an example because they represent the very core of tradionalist Nordic warrior society, if you claim Nords are innately racist then you would expect the companions would show the most xenophobia and aggression, yet they do not, quite the opposite.

[OblivionDuruza]

I've never labelled the Nords racist if you're aiming that comment at me. Personally, I love the Nords, but I hate the Stormcloaks just as I hate the Camonna Tong while loving the Dunmer. Look back at my comments and you'll see all of them are directed at the Stormcloaks as an organisation, not the Nords as a race. The problem is not one of race, it's the mentality of "True Nords" vs. the world.

[Gurney]

I've never labelled the Nords racist if you're aiming that comment at me. Personally, I love the Nords, but I hate the Stormcloaks just as I hate the Camonna Tong while loving the Dunmer. Look back at my comments and you'll see all of them are directed at the Stormcloaks as an organisation, not the Nords as a race. The problem is not one of race, it's the mentality of "True Nords" vs. the world.

Duruza, while i enjoy reading your posts and discussing things with you, and also while i am very loath to indulge in ANY kind of flaming on these excellent boards. I still feel i must say, you are a little touchy and take things too personally, relax. I wasn't aiming the comment at you any more than any of the other thousands of forumites who may read it, it was simply a response to the topic.

My problem with discussing this whole topic, is that though i have a reasonably firm grip on TES lore, i'm yet to play through the civil war questline in Skyrim so i find it hard to place the Stormcloaks yet or form a solid assessment of them. You certainly seemed to have a very negative view on them but it don't have your experiences so i can't agree or disagree.

[Eltee]

Try visiting Windhelm. The racist policies of the Stormcloaks are fact. They are not up for debate. They happen. No way around that fact.
Try talking to a wise man called Brunwulf Free-Winter in Windhelm. Get a wee bit of perspective.

[OblivionDuruza]

Gurney, no offence intended, although it was a response to your post, my last post was a note to everyone. You're right in that the Nords aren't themselves a problem, it's the Stormcloaks who are the root of the issue, not just for the Dunmer, but for everyone who doesn't fit their build. Although you might not have meant to single me out, others have not been so tactful in the past, so yeah there was meant to be some spirit behind that post, because I've been called a narrow-minded, Mer-lover a fair number of times, and not just in-game by Rolff Stone-Fist, when that simply is not a fair label. But hey, even if it might seem that I'm [&@%!] off by the stuff that gets said, I don't tend to take any of it to heart, I wouldn't still be here if I did, although yes, I will admit all the Mer hate of late is getting a little old. But I've got no right to tell people they aren't allowed to hate and like who they will, I only have the right to my own opinion, and it's one I have no qualms about voicing no matter how many people disagree with it.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't hold a grudge over a fictional race, and I've been in enough arguments to know when to leave differences of opinions in a debate. So, definitely no hard feelings, to anyone, on my part.