Scourge of the Grey Quarter

[Da_BossMaN69]

The nord's made this empire and as much of the imperials would deny it, it was, but they can easily make a second one.

But IMHO they're wrong, because they should be reforming the Empire not taking it down, they'll only create an opening for the Thalmor to attack. On top of that, do you know who the strongest nations are? The ones who come out of a war victorious. The winning side in any war is always better equipped to handle a second one and if they have the morale they'll certainly be able to do so again.

Only the empire is in a position to do so. Plus when you win a war not only do you gain a good morale boost but you earn respect not from the Nords but from the other provinces, and this could be enough for some of them to join the winning side.

[ArgonianDunmer]

The Nords didn't make the Empire, Tiber Septim did, and he was either an Atmoran or a Colovian ...

The Stormcloaks have no right to treat the Dunmer as they do in Skyrim, because the Dunmer have not wronged them by being in Skyrim. Show me evidence that they have please. So far, I have to side with Duruza because he's presented evidence that shows that the Stormclaoks are trouble makers and that they irrationally follow their own agenda and belief on a number of occasions, while other Nords are more accepting, reasonable and level-headed.

[FrostyInferno016]

The Nords didn't make the Empire, Tiber Septim did, and he was either an Atmoran or a Colovian ...

The Stormcloaks have no right to treat the Dunmer as they do in Skyrim, because the Dunmer have not wronged them by being in Skyrim. Show me evidence that they have please. So far, I have to side with Duruza because he's presented evidence that shows that the Stormclaoks are trouble makers and that they irrationally follow their own agenda and belief on a number of occasions, while other Nords are more accepting, reasonable and level-headed.

Tiber Septim founded the Empire, but it was his armies compromised of Nords that initially gained him victories, and then it was the blood of Nords that carried through the Legion for the centuries after. Then, it was the Nord legions that gave the Empire the edge in the Battle of Red Ring. So yes...it is very easily said that without Skyrim and the Nords, the Empire would never have been what it was.

And what exactly have the Nords done to the Dunmer? I haven't seen, heard, or read anything that they've done other than yell mean things at them. Are the Dunmer feelings so fragile that calling them the "Greys" is a travesty?

The main item of this thread was the book originally cited, which (biased or not) expresses the frustrations of the Nords that the Dunmer in Windhelm have yet to merge with Nord culture. So I asked, why is it wrong for the Nords to expect that a people, whom they have given shelter and the chance of livelihood to in their time of need, not reciprocate and at least try to adapt?

[Frost Mage]

Hmmm... I'm thinking this is going no where fast, especially with Frosty's, I'll admit, ill-informed lore. I think I'm going to make a new thread, titled something along the lines of, "The Stormcloaks and the Empire Debate", mmm'kay? This topic is far enough off topic as it is, and another topic would be great to organize posts.

[legoless]

It's not Imperial land...and the Stormcloaks are proving it the right way--by retaking it. Hence the whole Civil War thing.

Skyrim has always been an "imperial" land. The Alessian Empire was partially founded by the First Empire of the Nords (or some remainder of it, perhaps), which is basically modern Skyrim. Talos, a Nord and a hero of Skyrim, created the current Third Empire with full recognition from Skyrim. The province has never ruled itself, and the Stormcloaks are just a misguided band of revolutionaries who don't understand the situation with the Aldmeri Dominion and are angry at the enforced ban on worshipping the God of Man (which is understandable, the Nords being humans). But that's another discussion.

[FrostyInferno016]

It's not Imperial land...and the Stormcloaks are proving it the right way--by retaking it. Hence the whole Civil War thing.

Skyrim has always been an "imperial" land. The Alessian Empire was partially founded by the First Empire of the Nords (or some remainder of it, perhaps), which is basically modern Skyrim. Talos, a Nord and a hero of Skyrim, created the current Third Empire with full recognition from Skyrim. The province has never ruled itself, and the Stormcloaks are just a misguided band of revolutionaries who don't understand the situation with the Aldmeri Dominion and are angry at the enforced ban on worshipping the God of Man (which is understandable, the Nords being humans). But that's another discussion.

Legendary Sancre Tor proves that the Nords always had their own kingdom. It wasn't until the 3rd Empire (Septim Dynasty) that the High King was essentially chosen by the Empire, and even then...it depended on the particular Emperor (some enforced it, others didn't).

During the War of Bendr-Mahk, the Nords independently expanded west into High Rock and the northeastern portion of Hammerfell.

So the Nords, until recently, have always had a recognized government, and have (the majority of the time) ruled themselves and been considered more of an ally, same as High Rock.

It might be ticky-tacky to point-out, as well, but Talos never claimed to be Nord...he claimed to be Atmoran.

[legoless]

It might be ticky-tacky to point-out, as well, but Talos never claimed to be Nord...he claimed to be Atmoran.

It's also claimed that he was born in Balfiera, an island in the Iliac, which is an explanation far more likely that the legend of him being the last to arrive from Atmora. His actual race isn't important, and probably isn't very distinct either. He's human.

[Jingles]

Hmmm. Let me put this bluntly. The Dunmer are awesome. The nords are not. Maybe wouldn't go as far as calling them the master race but they totally have the most interesting, beautiful and unique culture in the elder scrolls. They're a people quite literally touched by the gods. They were a nation whose mages and warriors were unmatched by anyone in Tamriel - the high ordinators for example are mentioned many times in the game as being the deadliest warriors in Tamriel (hell, it took half their homeland literally exploding and a blitzkrieg of highly trained lizard-nazis to finally bring them down). They live for hundreds if not thousands of years, and bearing all that in mind I don't blame them for looking down on humans. So you can call it a double standard if you like, but I think the ridiculous faux-vikings deserve to be under the boot of an ordinator.

Bunch of hairy n'wahs.

[FrostyInferno016]

Opinions are fun...but that's all what you said is. What does any of this have to do with the topic, though?

[Jingles]

Well, you lot were talking about whether the dunmer should assmiliate into nordic culture, and what I said was basically a long winded "hell no."

[FrostyInferno016]

Ah. And whys that? Something a little deeper than "because I think they're better" would be outstanding

[Jingles]

You can't really go any deeper than "because I think they're better", because that's all it comes down to. The Dunmer have a freakin' awesome culture and I don't think they should give up what little of it they have left after having been forced into that whole exoddus. It's very easy to say "get lost, go fight for your homeland, leave us alone", but have you seen them? They've been reduced to a race of paupers and farmers. How are they supposed to fight the An-Xileel? They can't even fight off the local nordic thugs that terrorize their neighbourhood, let alone an Argonian equivalent of the Thalmor.

[FrostyInferno016]

As awesome as you think the Dunmer culture is, there are plenty out there who think the Nord culture is awesome. The whole argument is whether the Nords have the right to demand respect of their culture in their own land. I think they absolutely do.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

As awesome as you think the Dunmer culture is, there are plenty out there who think the Nord culture is awesome. The whole argument is whether the Nords have the right to demand respect of their culture in their own land. I think they absolutely do.

Kinda like the Nords respected the Falmer when they were guests in their land?

Oh..wait..right.

[Wolfie]

Kinda like the Nords respected the Falmer when they were guests in their land?

Oh..wait..right.

The Dark Elf do not repsect others why should the nords respect theirs?
and befroe you say becuse they are awsome I do not think they are.

[FrostyInferno016]

As awesome as you think the Dunmer culture is, there are plenty out there who think the Nord culture is awesome. The whole argument is whether the Nords have the right to demand respect of their culture in their own land. I think they absolutely do.

Kinda like the Nords respected the Falmer when they were guests in their land?

Oh..wait..right.

They named the frackin land "Mereth"....it was the Falmer who massacred them at Saarthal.

[OblivionDuruza]

Jingles, loving the LP . Now come back and roleplay! BftE is looking at revival

Kinda like the Nords respected the Falmer when they were guests in their land?

Oh..wait..right.

The Dark Elf do not repsect others why should the nords respect theirs?
and befroe you say becuse they are awsome I do not think they are.

Wolfie, the Dunmer have never been racist. Yes they commit slavery, which I am not saying is a good thing, but which I am saying is not relevant in the current discussion. However, they take slaves of all races, particularly Argonians because of the ease they are able to and availability of Argonians as slaves. I mean, there are many Argonian villages just across the border, and within these are Argonian mothers willing to sell their children into slavery. If I were into slavery and had such a wide and available product on my doorstep, I would not travel all across Tamriel to collect slaves, would you? Further, the slavery in Morrowind is not the same as the slavery in America for one reason, the Dunmer do not oppress and subjugate other races. Black men and women could not get the same jobs, rights or property as whites prior to the Civil Rights movement, but Argonians, Khajiits, and in fact all others, can hold the same positions, own land and hold jobs in Dunmeri society.

Additionally, in Morrowind the PC experienced blanket xenophobia, but they were not subjected to commentary based on their race. The Dunmer did not trust any outlanders, even other Mer and even other Dunmer, not native to Vvardenfell. The Dunmer are very much unlike the Stormcloaks in this respect.

[Wolfie]

.... uh Duza,..... Where in that whole post of mine did I say raciest?
The fact is they Treated evrey one who was not one of them was mistreated now they get a tast of their medcine

[OblivionDuruza]

It's not about racism per se, but about the fact that the Dunmer are the most grim and 'dark' of all races, for a reason. They've been eternally cursed and are shunned by all others, too right they feel a little undervalued, and of course this kind of hate breeds a culture of mistrust. But the Dunmer never actually acted overly aggressively on that point, even though by rights they could have. No, they continue to bear Outlander despite their dislike of them. The Dunmer went about it a lot better than the Stormcloaks are.

[Berzerker]

It's not about racism per se, but about the fact that the Dunmer are the most grim and 'dark' of all races, for a reason. They've been eternally cursed and are shunned by all others, too right they feel a little undervalued, and of course this kind of hate breeds a culture of mistrust. But the Dunmer never actually acted overly aggressively on that point, even though by rights they could have. No, they continue to bear Outlander despite their dislike of them. The Dunmer went about it a lot better than the Stormcloaks are.

The Orcs would like to have a word with you...

[OblivionDuruza]

True, I'm not saying the Orcs aren't though. It's a wide consensus that the Dunmer are equally shunned:

"Dark" is commonly understood as meaning such characteristics as "dark-skinned", "gloomy", "ill-favored by fate" and so on.

Consider how you would begin to feel after subjugation to comments regarding your skin and regarding ash. The author of the book, The Dunmer of Skyrim had obviously had enough of it hadn't he?

[Wolfie]

It's not about racism per se, but about the fact that the Dunmer are the most grim and 'dark' of all races, for a reason. They've been eternally cursed and are shunned by all others, too right they feel a little undervalued, and of course this kind of hate breeds a culture of mistrust. But the Dunmer never actually acted overly aggressively on that point, even though by rights they could have. No, they continue to bear Outlander despite their dislike of them. The Dunmer went about it a lot better than the Stormcloaks are.

So having slaves is not a bad thing and in no way shows their mistrust hate and feeling of being bbetter?

and again not ALL stormclocks do this, yes some do but not all

[OblivionDuruza]

Show me Stormcloaks who do not, show me their supporters who do not. Even their highest Generals are blinded by their hate for the Elves as a race and as a species.

Additionally, my previous point on slaves still stands. The Dunmer do not take slaves out of hate, they do not subjugate other races, or hold them in the same manner the Stormcloaks held them. Race is not a great motivator in the Dunmer's use of slaves, convenience is, if Morrowind were next to Elsweyr, but far from Argonia, you could expect there to be a pro rata change in the make-up of the slave populace.

[Wolfie]

Show me Stormcloaks who do not, show me their supporters who do not. Even their highest Generals are blinded by their hate for the Elves as a race and as a species.

Additionally, my previous point on slaves still stands. The Dunmer do not take slaves out of hate, they do not subjugate other races, or hold them in the same manner the Stormcloaks held them. Race is not a great motivator in the Dunmer's use of slaves, convenience is, if Morrowind were next to Elsweyr, but far from Argonia, you could expect there to be a pro rata change in the make-up of the slave populace.

and yet have you seen or heard of a dark elf slave?
they take any slaves becuse they are "better" if thats not i dont know what is.

[FrostyInferno016]

Aye, Duruza...so I suppose they were friendly slavemasters who provided healthcare and apologized everytime they cracked a whip? Slavery for the sake of slavery (not out of penance) is the worst kind of racism there is and anyone with half a mind would know it.

Plus, show me proof that the Stormcloaks have done anything besides say mean things to the Elves.