What is gender? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more

[Veck]

http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?p= ... 22#p601031

Discuss. I'll put up a textwall in a minute.

[Тeatime]

There are people who don't identify as either male or female, not acknowledging them seems sort of mean to me. I understand that a lot of people might not know much of anything about non-normative gender identities but try to understand, it can mean a lot to people.

[Taters]

As far as I'm concerned, masculinity and femininity, as qualities, are free-choice, but gender is genetic. If you're XY, you're male. If you're XX, you're female. Yes, there are conditions such as hermaphroditism or mosaicism, but those are very rare, and in either case, shouldn't set the benchmark by themselves. Anything else is pure philosophy, and has nothing to do, IMO, with actual gender.

[Sloady]

I personally can't identify as either gender - and the pronouns I use to describe myself change daily. I understand that I'm XY, I have two chromozones, but frankly, that's where gender ends. Almost everything else can be changed. Not all women can have babies, so that's not really a criteria of womanhood, and appearance, genitalia, etc. can all be changed.

I enjoy being who I am, but can't really identify with either gender, because I'm in between - and love it.

However, I understand that it can be hard to understand. I myself didn't really understand it until it dawned upon me that I was part of the few. For that reason, I'll withhold myself from this discussion, because I don't really expect anything to change.

[Avron the S'wit]

I'll talk more about this later, but I'd like to say that I'm opposite of Jedi Taters (respect!). To me, gender is a sociocultural expectation of how people will treat you - give you dolls if you are "female," dress you in blue if you are "male" - but biological sex is genetic and determined at birth. That's how we define it when discussing gender in anthropology and linguistics, at least.

[Тeatime]

Let's have a clarification if semantics here, it'll probably be useful. When I say gender I don't mean the biological aspect, I call that sex or the biological gender for clarity. Hence it seems silly to only acknowledge male and female when we're talking about just gender, which I take as meaning the social and mental aspects.

Keeping your terms clear to avoid confusion is a good start for a debate like this.

[Taters]

I'll talk more about this later, but I'd like to say that I'm opposite of Jedi Taters (respect!). To me, gender is a sociocultural expectation of how people will treat you - give you dolls if you are "female," dress you in blue if you are "male" - but biological sex is genetic and determined at birth. That's how we define it when discussing gender in anthropology and linguistics, at least.

Actually, that's why I choose to see it as strictly biological; I think that gender roles imposed by society are, generally, stupid, outmoded and restrictive. I don't see what's wrong with a man being "feminine" or vice versa, and I think it kind of gives in to societies expectations for someone outside that norm to have a sex change; basically saying "Oh, you're right. I'm male, but like female things, therefore, I should become female". I'd rather buck the system and tell society to stick it.

[Stereotype]

Allow me to give a trans 101, if you will.

Firstly, sex (physical) does not determine gender (mental). A soldier who loses his dick in a war remains a man. A boy who was given surgery at birth and raised as female due to a botched circumcision (was he named David Reimer? He might have been, I'm unsure, but it did happen) experienced the same thing that transgendered folks report experiencing when they are misgendered or have a sex they don't feel suits their gender. Physical traits, overall, do not determine mental traits.

For how can a brainless load of flesh between your legs perform a mental function that is reserved for your brain? It's simply illogical. It's also worth mentioning that being trans is actually a medically recognised birth defect, and it is corrected via hormones and surgery to give the trans person the sex they feel suits them. Other methods have been tried. None have worked.

Despite what you may have heard, sex is actually not a binary.
There are people who are born intersexed, and people who have sexes not on the binary you think of as male & female. Intersexed people can have non-normative chromosomes, genitals or bodies all over. "Correcting" them at birth via surgery to give them a more conventional body is basically a flipped coin.

You get a roughly 49% chance of giving them a sex they're comfortable with.
The rest of the time? You give them a sex that doesn't fit their gender, even if you do something like modifying someone is is very near to a male-typical body so they have a completely male typical body.

All of this shows that sex/gender are a correlation, not a caustation, thus making personal choice the only valid definer of gender. I ask you to think about this. You've been taught from birth that it isn't true, and so your knee-jerk reaction is going to be denial. Mine was too.

I'll talk more about this later, but I'd like to say that I'm opposite of Jedi Taters (respect!). To me, gender is a sociocultural expectation of how people will treat you - give you dolls if you are "female," dress you in blue if you are "male" - but biological sex is genetic and determined at birth. That's how we define it when discussing gender in anthropology and linguistics, at least.

Actually, that's why I choose to see it as strictly biological; I think that gender roles imposed by society are, generally, stupid, outmoded and restrictive. I don't see what's wrong with a man being "feminine" or vice versa, and I think it kind of gives in to societies expectations for someone outside that norm to have a sex change; basically saying "Oh, you're right. I'm male, but like female things, therefore, I should become female". I'd rather buck the system and tell society to stick it.

But it's not a matter of fitting societal roles, it's a matter of the body you're comfortable with.
The trans people I know feel exactly the same about gender roles as you do. This is not a matter of other people's expectations, but of personal preference.

[Avron the S'wit]

I'll talk more about this later, but I'd like to say that I'm opposite of Jedi Taters (respect!). To me, gender is a sociocultural expectation of how people will treat you - give you dolls if you are "female," dress you in blue if you are "male" - but biological sex is genetic and determined at birth. That's how we define it when discussing gender in anthropology and linguistics, at least.

Actually, that's why I choose to see it as strictly biological; I think that gender roles imposed by society are, generally, stupid, outmoded and restrictive. I don't see what's wrong with a man being "feminine" or vice versa, and I think it kind of gives in to societies expectations for someone outside that norm to have a sex change; basically saying "Oh, you're right. I'm male, but like female things, therefore, I should become female". I'd rather buck the system and tell society to stick it.

In the case, I agree with you completely. Power to you for thinking outside the box like that! Societal expectations are very tough to get away from, so it's good that we should learn that they are not so important.

Edit: Forgot:

But it's not a matter of fitting societal roles, it's a matter of the body you're comfortable with.

But that's not what he's saying. Taters is pointing out that societal roles are silly and don't allow you to feel comfortable in the body you have, because they expect you to act and present yourself one way or the other - not necessarily how you see or feel yourself, naturally.

[Taters]

But it's not a matter of fitting societal roles, it's a matter of the body you're comfortable with.
The trans people I know feel exactly the same about gender roles as you do. This is not a matter of other people's expectations, but of personal preference.

That thinking is foreign to me, though. I'd be perfectly comfortable as either gender. If I woke up tomorrow and was physically female, sure, there'd be some superficial changes, but who I am and how I identify myself wouldn't change in the slightest, save to say I'd check the "F" box instead of "M".

[Sloady]

I know what I said, but dammit all if I don't say this. Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been. Soceity has changed, but not people following it. Therefore, gender is, unfortunately, a lot more than just being XX or XY, and that's it.

[Taters]

I know what I said, but dammit all if I don't say this. Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been. Soceity has changed, but not people following it. Therefore, gender is, unfortunately, a lot more than just being XX or XY, and that's it.

I completely understand that, but I'm totally stubborn on that point. All my life I've gotten guff for not being like others, and rather than lamenting I'm not more normal, I've put my foot down and said "No, I'm not going to change, society is". Futile, yes, but it's who I am.

[Avron the S'wit]

Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been.

So here's a good question: how do you think you can change those societal expectations? Can you? Do you think they will, and when?

[Stereotype]

But it's not a matter of fitting societal roles, it's a matter of the body you're comfortable with.
The trans people I know feel exactly the same about gender roles as you do. This is not a matter of other people's expectations, but of personal preference.

That thinking is foreign to me, though. I'd be perfectly comfortable as either gender. If I woke up tomorrow and was physically female, sure, there'd be some superficial changes, but who I am and how I identify myself wouldn't change in the slightest, save to say I'd check the "F" box instead of "M".

You might think that, but quite frankly, that boy who was given surgery and raised as a girl doesn't agree. He still felt like a guy, and he killed himself because of how his body being like that made him feel. I'm pretty sure it was David Reimer or Riemer. Anyone with more time willing to google? Anyhow, editing your body isn't about societal expectations because I have a non binary gender and I'm aiming for the kind of body society expects of women, because that's what I'm comfortable with.

I also dislike normative gender roles, to boot.

[Тeatime]

I know what I said, but dammit all if I don't say this. Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been. Soceity has changed, but not people following it. Therefore, gender is, unfortunately, a lot more than just being XX or XY, and that's it.

I completely understand that, but I'm totally stubborn on that point. All my life I've gotten guff for not being like others, and rather than lamenting I'm not more normal, I've put my foot down and said "No, I'm not going to change, society is". Futile, yes, but it's who I am.

Hah, that sounds like my life. It may be rather idealist to tell society to chance but you have to start somewhere after all.

[Sloady]

Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been.

So here's a good question: how do you think you can change those societal expectations? Can you? Do you think they will, and when?

Ummm... politics, mainly. You need protests, campaigning, and usually a celebrity figure behind it for it to happen. Frankly, no. I don't think gender will ever stop being a division. Even the most radical feminists don't see that they're a problem - so long as gender exists, there's always going to be a division between male and female.

[Тeatime]

Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been.

So here's a good question: how do you think you can change those societal expectations? Can you? Do you think they will, and when?

I think they will change gradually as people act out against them. So yeah, that's how I try, by just being myself regardless of what people expect.

[Avron the S'wit]

Jedi Taters, while your view is admirable, it's futile, because the majority of people don't see things like that. Their perceptions are based on societal expectations, and they always have been.

So here's a good question: how do you think you can change those societal expectations? Can you? Do you think they will, and when?

Ummm... politics, mainly. You need protests, campaigning, and usually a celebrity figure behind it for it to happen.

Really? Why do you think that? I know a few major protests and changes that were the result of every day people...Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr., Ghandi - just to name a few. Have we underestimated the power of the population that we need celebrities?

Just a random question, because I'm curious about it.

However, there will always biologically be a male and a female - you can't get around that, unfortunately. Defeating gender norms and expectations is very tough, but I believe it is plausible.

Another question: would you prefer it if English had a neutral gender pronoun? There are languages that do, or those that don't separate genders. For instance, in Turkish, third person is just "o," encompassing he, she, and it. There is no mention of gender. Is that better?

[Тeatime]

I'm all for a gender neutral pronoun. The Swedish one is quite lovely and hopefully it'll get offically recognised soon.

[Sloady]

Yes, I'd be much happier with a gender neutral pronoun.

[SAMIAM]

Female ---------------------------- 0 ------------------------------------ Male

Peoples bodies may be one but their minds fall somewhere on the scale above.

[Тeatime]

Or they fall somewhere outside the scale, that's how I prefer to see myself.

[SAMIAM]

So you're a Daedra? lol

[Тeatime]

So you're a Daedra? lol

Biologically, nope. Mentally, sure.

[SAMIAM]

Lol so people who don't consider themselves to be man or woman will now be called Daedra.. I like it.