Scourge of the Grey Quarter

[Eltee]

Hear, hear! Great arguments, Duruza.
Frosty Inferno, you say that Dunmer refuse to integrate. What do you mean by this? That they are not content with ditching their rich, ancient culture in favour of another one? It seems to me like the Stormies, damn hypocrites that they are, hate the Dunmer because they refuse to integrate, they point to the Argonians, who basically gave up their own culture and pride to work and live in poverty on the docks, as the prime example fo reintegrtion. They don't want the Dunmer to be integrated, they want the Dunmer to be subjugated. The Dunmer defend their pride and their culture and their way of life! Because they want to live with equal rights as Nords, that makes them outsiders, spies? Screw that.

[FrostyInferno016]

It's like talking to Grimlock sometimes....it's gotten through to at least someone, so there's hope.


Eltee, that would matter if it weren't the Nords' home. The Nords own Windhelm, hence it is incumbent upon the Dunmer to adapt and adjust. Obviously it ain't that hard in Winterhold (a Stormcloak Hold/city), the Grey-Manes have no complaint about the Housecarl of Whiterun. It's the Dunmer of Windhelm who see their culture as more important/better than the Nords, and the Nords (I think rightly) don't appreciate it. There are one or two Nords that are wrongfully overzealous, but where they're coming from a justified position. If they don't like the Nord culture, they should relocate.
Btw, if Nords wanted to subjugate them, they'd have done so by now. What they want is for the Dunmer to "integrate", or to respect their culture as the Altmer, Bosmer, and various other Dunmer elsewhere have.

Duruza...you can't win this argument, so you keep throwing in other scenarios that have little/nothing to do with what we're talking about. If it were really just and Ulfric/Stormcloak issue, then the Dunmer in Winterhold, Riften, and Dawnstar would be complaining. They aren't. So...what are you going on about? You're just beating a dead horse...a dead...1000 gold...horse.

[Wolfie]

The Dunmer defend their pride and their culture and their way of life! Because they want to live with equal rights as Nords, that makes them outsiders, spies? Screw that.

So is it okay when the datk elfs did thi to evrey one?

you can't win this argument, so you keep throwing in other scenarios that have little/nothing to do with what we're talking about. If it were really just and Ulfric/Stormcloak issue, then the Dunmer in Winterhold, Riften, and Dawnstar would be complaining. They aren't.

He is doig the same thing you are, asumming one person = whole thing

It's really only Ulfric doing it

[enyamerT]

Some things to keep in mind when it comes to the topic of Dunmer cultural assimilation:

Even though Morrowind has been part of the Empire for over a millennium, the Tribunal negotiated it's entrance on favorable terms, keeping most of the Dunmeri cultural institutions intact (the Temple, the Great Houses, the Morag Tong, slavery, etc.) so the average Dunmer didn't have to adjust very much to "Imperial" life.

In Oblivion, the Argonian bookseller in Cheydenhal mentions that most of the Dunmer in town moved to get away from "church and state", so they weren't that tied to the institutions of Morrowind anyway, making it easier to assimilate into Imperial society. The refugees that came to Windhelm is a different story. Their emigration was forced upon them by circumstances beyond their control, and would have preferred to stay in Morrowind and enjoy the traditional Dunmer culture. Never having to fully assimilate as Imperial citizens while in Morrowind, they find it rather difficult to do so now that they're forced to live in Skyrim.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

That's true. The deal made between Vivec and the Empire pretty much guaranteed their freedom to continue their cherished Velothi cultural traditions. Most Dunmer who left before Red Year were already more or less secular and detached from traditional Morrowind values. These people were forced to move or suffer and probably die. They were not ready to abandon their values.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Who cares the Dunmer are just as racist and stuck-up as the rest of them, seriously the Morrowind-fanboyism here is ridiculous. The Dunmer are easily one of the most despicable and selfish race in the series. They kicked the Dwarves out of their home (like the Nords), are extremely xenophobic and racist themselves, hold slaves (because slavery is humane right?), on top of all that the pricks thought they could become Gods and they were hardly even benevolent Gods.

Im glad the Argonains and Nord have given them a good ass kick.

[Berzerker]

Who cares the Dunmer are just as racist and stuck-up as the rest of them, seriously the Morrowind-fanboyism here is ridiculous. The Dunmer are easily one of the most despicable and selfish race in the series. They kicked the Dwarves out of their home (like the Nords), are extremely xenophobic and racist themselves, hold slaves (because slavery is humane right?), on top of all that the pricks thought they could become Gods and they were hardly even benevolent Gods.

Im glad the Argonains and Nord have given them a good ass kick.

Right because EVERY Dark Elf is alike. You do realize these most likely are'nt the same Dunmer from the Morrowind game right? And also the Argonians are treated worse then Dunmer in Windhelm so lulz at bringing them up.

[OblivionDuruza]

@Frosty, you see, I've presented factual evidence and I've detailed its relevance. You on the other hand, have ignored all the evidence I've presented, not even attempted to refute any of it, and then you claim that all I do is "[throw] in other scenarios that have little/nothing to do with what we're talking about". I'd like to see you throw in any evidence from the game that supports your claims.

You talk about the Dunmer in Winterhold, and you say there is no problem. Then why are they blamed and hated for The Great Collapse? Why have many of them fled from the hate of the Jarl and his followers? He makes no secret of his distrust and dislike of the Mer. He blames them, when there is no evidence to prove or even suggest that they were involved.

The problem is that Ulfric lets men like the Stonefists walk around and do as they please. He does not enforce any law, at least, not where non-Nords are concerned. This is a fact, as the evidence indicates. the problem is not an inability to integrate, it's that the Dunmer are treated as less than Human. Maybe they are, they aren't men after all. But the Mer are accused of acting the superiors all the time, have we ever stopped to consider that men are doing just the same.

Your arguments are as flawed as those of the Stromclaoks in-game. Just as flawed as the argument the Dunmer are Imperial spies because they do not fight for the Stormcloaks. I'd be surprised if the Stormcloaks let them fight alongside them without some form of dissent in the ranks. Ulfric might, he's not a totally bad sort, and would at least see that their aid could assist in terms of the war, but men like Stonefist will never be happy. They're the kind that always kick up a fuss. The issue of the Dunmer isn't the only one they've started conflict over, it's becoming a pattern of minds of their calibre.

Ignore my arguments if you will, but they are relevant. The Stormclaoks are not my favourite bunch, and there's a reason for that. If you look at the way they've handled things, and compare it to how others have handled the same circumstances, a pattern starts to emerge. It's a pattern that acts as a window into the men themselves. The problem is not the Dunmer, the problem is not the Empire, other Nords have proven that they can coexist with both. The problem is in the attitude of the Stormcloaks. It's an attitude they have right to bear. I've defended the Thalmor in the past, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that what their doing is not right, just that it isn't straight out wrong, particularly in comparison to the actions of others. However, the attitude of Ulfric and the stormcloaks will not help Skyrim, it will only continue to throw up problems like the Civil War, like the tension in the Gray Quarter, and like the tension with the non-Nords. These problems will not be then end of it if the attitude continues, and who knows, without the Empire, how long will Skyrim stand?

So before you accuse me of being an idiot dinosaur who will not listen to reason, look at yourself for a second. You act with such a conviction you seem to ignore all efforts to at least explain my side of the argument. At least I took the time to not only listen to your side, but research it, both in-game and out, and then respond to it with my own considered opinions. I'd like to hear some of yours, because I believe they can be good ones, but instead of putting them forward you've skirted around the issue, dodging my points and my evidence at every chance you could.

@Wolfie, firstly, I don't think it's Ulfric, I think it's the Stormcloaks. Ulfric himself isn't the problem, he just wont act to stop the tension. People like the Stonefists, now they're the problem, the lessers in the ranks.

Also, the Dunmer never suppressed the culture of any race. They may have gone to war with the Dwemer, as Chimer, over culture and theology, but that was to protect their own.

@BossMan, why is it instantly fanboysim to argue against the oppression of the Dunmer at the hands of the brutality of the Stormcloaks? I could equally pull out a Skyrim fanboyism argument, but it'd be equally weak. Look at the username, if anything, I'm an Oblivion 'fanboy' because it's always been 'my' TES Game, but in actuality, 'fanboysim' does not come into it.

The Dunmer did not kick the Dwemer, the Dwemer disappeared as a result of their own tampering with the Heart of Lorkhan, the Dunmer went to war with the same Dwemer, to protect their own religion from the secular Dwemer.

Further, you're trying to say that the Dunmer are more "selfish and despicable" than the Altmer, and the Dwemer, the Imperials and the Ayleids? If you're going to throw around accusations at least make them believable, because the Dunmer aren't the ones trying to ban Talos or remove Men to build an Empire of Mer in the shadow of the old ways, as the Thalmor are doing. The Dunmer haven't enslaved entire races and committed genocide as the Ayleids did, they did not destroy an entire race as the Dwemer did to the Falmer, and the Dunmer didn't use the Numidium, even though they could have, to oppress other races as the Empire did. They did not commit mass genocide as the Nords did to the Mer, particularly the Falmer, as the Alessians did to the Heartland High Elves; they do not wage continuous war against peaceful peoples as the Kamal do to the Tang Mo. The Dunmer might be guilty of slavery, of xenophobia and seclusion, but they are far from the worst of anything on Nirn.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Duruza, I'll admit the fanboy remark was simply made because it gets trying to see all the Dark elf praise on this site simply for a game whose only redeeming quality was nostalgia (Played like 2 hours of it, did not like it one bit, the combat was too dreadful, I knows it's lore/story is seen as better and in some regards it is, but I'll be damned before I spend an hours trying to find some place and then get my ass kicked simply because my stats are too low for a guaranteed hit).

However I'll say that to paint the Dunmer as less harsh than the others is not true. They have enslaved races and purely on racial matter on top of that they are responsible for a number of crimes and their very society is corrupt. I've looked at the wiki to see the hype about the game, literally almost every guild faction questline has you killing off the leader or something due to corruption.

Furthermore the dunmer in question here are the very same ones who follow they're old traditions. The wiki even says it right there, the dunmer are "scumbags" (paraphrased but seriously if your only redeeming quality is you won't stab your family in the back, than that would mean the mafia isn't all that bad.

And lastly dude your defense of the Thalmor is kinda shaky at best, I've seen some of the posts if the best thing they did was drive the daedra from Summerset Isle and add order and you consider that a reason from them to be not so bad, read some histroy. Stalin and his version of communism did the same thing in Russia and in Eastern Europe, by kicking out the Nazi's. Did that give him a right to purge half of his population and of others who didn't want to be communist in the first place.
Try telling that to an older person in Poland that the Communists weren't that bad and had some right

[Frost Mage]

@Duru Correct. The Dunmer has not committed the same genocides as the Ayleids, or even the Nords for that matter. Even then it was a fair battle per se, as the Nords were not faithful to any particular organization as a whole, at least. My point is, the Stormcloaks have used very ignorant and sometimes unlawful practices to get what they wanted, such as vastly convincing most Stormcloak soldiers to not actually do the research and just listen to the ignorance being flushed over them.

[Berzerker]

Duruza, I'll admit the fanboy remark was simply made because it gets trying to see all the Dark elf praise on this site simply for a game whose only redeeming quality was nostalgia (Played like 2 hours of it, did not like it one bit, the combat was too dreadful, I knows it's lore/story is seen as better and in some regards it is, but I'll be damned before I spend an hours trying to find some place and then get my ass kicked simply because my stats are too low for a guaranteed hit).

However I'll say that to paint the Dunmer as less harsh than the others is not true. They have enslaved races and purely on racial matter on top of that they are responsible for a number of crimes and their very society is corrupt. I've looked at the wiki to see the hype about the game, literally almost every guild faction questline has you killing off the leader or something due to corruption.

Furthermore the dunmer in question here are the very same ones who follow they're old traditions. The wiki even says it right there, the dunmer are "scumbags" (paraphrased but seriously if your only redeeming quality is you won't stab your family in the back, than that would mean the mafia isn't all that bad.

And lastly dude your defense of the Thalmor is kinda shaky at best, I've seen some of the posts if the best thing they did was drive the daedra from Summerset Isle and add order and you consider that a reason from them to be not so bad, read some histroy. Stalin and his version of communism did the same thing in Russia and in Eastern Europe, by kicking out the Nazi's. Did that give him a right to purge half of his population and of others who didn't want to be communist in the first place.
Try telling that to an older person in Poland that the Communists weren't that bad and had some right

You must really hate America then since we're guilty of those crimes through out our history as a nation.

[FrostyInferno016]

Duruza...what "factual evidence"? You've submitted nothing but subjective quotes, the same as me. You've given your opinion on those quotes, same as me. Your "facts", as you see them, are no different/better than mine, you're just confused into thinking that way.

First of all, when I say the "Dunmer in Winterhold (a Stormcloak city)", you do realize I'm talking about Malur Seloth, right? He's a housecarl for Korir.. And Korir blames the College for the Collapse, not the Dunmer...the blame placed on the Dunmer was simply me exaggerating a point earlier. Plus, you never addressed the Dunmer in Riften (another Stormcloak city) who live in relative peace.

Second of all, if it were really an "Stonefist issue", why the heck are the other elves in Windhelm left alone? It ain't because of the Thalmor...Ulfric already openly defies them with the allowance of the Talos Temple in the heart of the city. It's the bloody Dunmer in Windhelm that are the issue for all of the previously mentioned reasons.

What "evidence" is there that Ulfric gives his men the "laissez-faire" treatment? Because one or two Nords say something mean and hurtful to a Dunmer? I haven't seen any Nords assaulting a Dunmer; the only thing the Dunmer complain about is robbery amongst themselves (they assume it's the Nords, but that's opinion based on their animosity not anything substantive, and--in actual fact--a Dunmer wants you [the PC] to return a ring to a Nord from whom he stole) and some other petty crimes between each other.

If the Dunmer were truly "sub-human", they would not own businesses, even in Grey Quarter. They would not be allowed to lease buildings for dwelling or any purposes. So...unless you expect the Dunmer to receive a royal-spa treatment, complete with mani-pedi's...how are they treated as "sub-human"?

Your suppositions are just that...suppositions/conjecture/opinion...regarding the Dunmer's potential involvement with the Stormcloaks. The likelihood of the Nords accepting the Dunmeri as near-kin is much higher if they show willingness to bleed for Skyrim than for the Stonefists to object/coupe. They might scoff at first, "how could a Mer understand our fight?", but the Nords (Stormcloaks are Nords...slightly xenophobic...but Nords) value bravery and sacrifice above nearly anything else...

Instead of improving their situation, and succumbing to the expectation of respecting local tradition and beliefs, and giving something of themselves as so many other Mer have done in Stormcloak territory (including Windhelm) they simply fold their arms and complain about how unfair it is that they can't ignore and disrespect those who gave them shelter when they were far from obligated. (Yes, Morrowind suffered a catastrophe, but that does/should not fall on the Nords to bear)

So...waiting for facts as to why the Dunmer shouldn't "do as the Romans do"...or, better yet, why it's wrong to expect them to respect and adhere to the local customs and traditions.

[Berzerker]

^By that same logic why shouldn't the Stormcloaks honor the Talos ban instead of kicking up a fuss and making trouble for both Skyrim and the Empire at such a crucial time?

[FrostyInferno016]

^By that same logic why shouldn't the Stormcloaks honor the Talos ban instead of kicking up a fuss and making trouble for both Skyrim and the Empire at such a crucial time?

Where in my argument would it justify that?

[Frost Mage]

While I'm not going to say you did, I doubt Berzerker pulled that comment out of the air.

[FrostyInferno016]

It's either that, or a lack of understanding.

[Berzerker]

^By that same logic why shouldn't the Stormcloaks honor the Talos ban instead of kicking up a fuss and making trouble for both Skyrim and the Empire at such a crucial time?

Where in my argument would it justify that?

You're saying the Dunmer should just let go of they're culture and traditions and honour Skyrim's instead so why shouldn't the Stormcloaks do the same and honor Imperial traditions including the White-Gold Concordant treaty?

[FrostyInferno016]

Why should they honor the denial of their most important god in their own land? What's often lost when people argue about this, and which I try to remind, is that Skyrim is the Nord's homeland. It's not the Dunmer's, nor any of the other race's...it's the Nords'. So...that outlook would have no bearing on this argument whatsoever.

[Berzerker]

Why should they honor the denial of their most important god in their own land? What's often lost when people argue about this, and which I try to remind, is that Skyrim is the Nord's homeland. It's not the Dunmer's, nor any of the other race's...it's the Nords'. So...that outlook would have no bearing on this argument whatsoever.

It's Imperial territory it belongs to the Empire if they want to ban Talos worship it's they're right so tell me again outside of personal bias why are the Stormcloaks' discontent justifid but the Dunmer's isn't?

[FrostyInferno016]

It's not Imperial land...and the Stormcloaks are proving it the right way--by retaking it. Hence the whole Civil War thing.

[Berzerker]

It's not Imperial land...and the Stormcloaks are proving it the right way--by retaking it. Hence the whole Civil War thing.

It is you can deny it all you want but it is an Imperial providence oh and they aren't retaking it they are TRYING to.

[FrostyInferno016]

Depends on how you play it. But regardless, the Holds in the West (where the Imperials are garrisoned) abide by the treaty, while the Holds in East (Stormcloak held) generally don't. Once they win, Talos shrines open up everywhere else. So I guess your asking why they should be able to worship their god in their land, even after they win it back?

[Berzerker]

Depends on how you play it. But regardless, the Holds in the West (where the Imperials are garrisoned) abide by the treaty, while the Holds in East (Stormcloak held) generally don't. Once they win, Talos shrines open up everywhere else. So I guess your asking why they should be able to worship their god in their land, even after they win it back?

No I'm asking you why you think the Stormcloak rebelion is justified in the first place if you think the Dummer should bend over backwards to appease them?

[FrostyInferno016]

A) It's been the Nord's land (province) since at least the end of the Merethic Era

B) The Stormcloaks are proving their point the right way...that when an Empire or other foreign body won't listen, you make them listen by force. If the Dunmer want to try and claim the land, they should.

C) The Nords invited them there in the first place, feeling pity for them...a little tit-for-tat might be in order.

[Wolfie]

The stormclocks are right to turn on the Empire

here is why
A. The empire takes their mines and lumber to fuel a diying breed, they most likey speed up how much they take as they lost evrey one eles
B. the Empire rules over them and has to protect them and treat them nice, they have not, they turn on them, reove their God's and let the Thalmor in
C. The Nord's want to fiht the Thalmor the Empire wont let them

Give me one good reasson WHY the Stormclocks should not be aloowed to become free?