To kill or not to kill (MQ spoilers!!)

[Grove-of-Hares]

No, it is never justified. And you're right, there are numerous reasons to kill him. I just don't think a character would care enough. He didn't live through those times. All he sees is a reformed dragon who a Blade is telling him must be killed because he was baaaad and he doesn't like him very much.

[Wolfie]

No, it is never justified. And you're right, there are numerous reasons to kill him. I just don't think a character would care enough. He didn't live through those times. All he sees is a reformed dragon who a Blade is telling him must be killed because he was baaaad and he doesn't like him very much.

he explains very well why he don’t like them

he killed their people, and committed many many crimes, is it so hard to believe that someone in a world where bloodline and history matter?

I mean look, many of the races alone hate each other for things done LONG AGO

It's not like he said " he a big ugly dragon go kill him"
he was one fo the "monsters" of the dragons,a nd that is saying a lot.

heck we humans do it, people hate Christianity and always mention the crusades, its NOT that far fetched, and if people where told of what he did then would they care?

[mulder]

Not speaking to me after I just saved the world from the true evil dragon that wants to the destroy it, just because I decided not to kill the only good dragon out there? Seriously even if Paarthunax killed millions of people back then (what was it - 10000 years ago?), I still won't kill him because you Esbern and Delphine are real [censored].

yeah, i don't like Esbern and Delphine much. At all.

[Grove-of-Hares]

I understand what you mean, Wolfie. We both encapsulate our individual sides of the argument, which is why Bethesda did the right thing by giving us a choice.

Those who despise Christianity will always remember the crusades if it affected their ancestors, yes, but I wouldn't call their rage genuine. The world, especially the Western world, will always hate Hitler, but will that hate not be overly influenced by generations upon generations of children learning about how EVIIILLL Hitler was? Its already gotten to the point where I hear kids these days remark that they truly believe the Nazi party as a whole was "evil".

Those who read their history will always be biased; hand-lead by the anger of their fore fathers into thinking they truly know the agony and pain that they felt. You're right, Wolfie, in that people will always hate that which their ancestors hated if they follow their words and footsteps, but what I don't agree with is it being justified.

Five-thousand years from now, the Crusades, Hitler, etc. will be remembered. Children will speak about them as if they hate [insert historical event or figure]. But they won't understand it; feel it like their ancestors did.

Esbern hates the dragons for what they did. I can see that, and he has every right to. I just don't think he understands that hatred justifiably like the Nords who may have witnessed a village being burned down by Paarthurnax.

That is all entirely subjective, though, so I'm not calling you wrong. You made some great points.

[Biggsydaboss]

Wulfie I have to say if the pain someone caused wasn't in living memory, then there needs to be healing. Otherwise we'd all hate German's forever. Also Hitler's legacy still lives on in neo- facism. So the hatred he brought to the world still needs to be dealt. Also I think that anyone who can truly change their ways has a right to ask for forgiveness & should expect it if they've done enough to show they've changed. I myself did kill Pathunax, but not out of hatred, but necessity. I felt with the Thalmor threat, the blades were needed now more then ever & as Dragonborn it's my characters destiny to lead them.

[Squiver]

/thread

[Grove-of-Hares]

People blaming the Germans still shows their misplaced hate, too. Germany was ruled by the Nazi party, but they were no more Nazis than the entirety of the U.S.A. is a single party. What bothers me is the sheer amount of people remembering things in such a brutally deformed way, but that is history itself, I guess.

While I wouldn't take that path (I will on my next play through) with that exact reasoning, I do like your in-game justification, Biggsydaboss!

[Wolfie]

Wulfie I have to say if the pain someone caused wasn't in living memory, then there needs to be healing. Otherwise we'd all hate German's forever. Also Hitler's legacy still lives on in neo- facism. So the hatred he brought to the world still needs to be dealt. Also I think that anyone who can truly change their ways has a right to ask for forgiveness & should expect it if they've done enough to show they've changed. I myself did kill Pathunax, but not out of hatred, but necessity. I felt with the Thalmor threat, the blades were needed now more then ever & as Dragonborn it's my characters destiny to lead them.

the problem with this is oce again, this is not hating the country the person came form, this is haitng the person that DID the Crimes.

[Grove-of-Hares]

/thread

Sorry to off-topic, but I'd never heard of that. Nice.

[Arch-Mage Matt]

I broke my contract with the Greybeards and friends after they suggested the world needed to end.

[Wolfie]

/thread

nothing new, we will always use the "top evil" guy in talks like this, sicne well the dragon basicly is the top evil guy (beside Aduin of ocurse)

[Grove-of-Hares]

I broke my contract with the Greybeards and friends after they suggested the world needed to end.

THAT...actually...is a good point I forgot about. Its a concept that could many things to various people, but if you truly loved the world you were in, I can see why you would forsake the Greybeards. Especially since the idea of what would happen after the world is "eaten" is unknown to the Dovahkiin.

EDIT: I still don't think, memes aside, that Paarthurnax =/= a "Hitler" figure.

[Arch-Mage Matt]

Alduin is Hilter. Paarthurnax is Himmler. Simple?

[Grove-of-Hares]

If you want to compare dragons to the Third Reich.

[Squiver]

I broke my contract with the Greybeards and friends after they suggested the world needed to end.

When they said that I sagenodded.

[NLN]

Whoever we compare Paarthurnax to, he

1) turned against the evil he served earlier than anybody else
2) the fact that the men/mer revolted at all probably had a lot to do with him
3) risked his own life in the process
4) gave weapons (shouts) to the men to help them
5) went out of his way to change and hopefully teach everybody else to be peaceful, just so that history could not repeat itself
6) while he waited and waited on the spot where Alduin disappeared to try and stop him if he ever returned
7) at the end, gave you weapon to defeat Alduin, knowing that there was a good chance it will mean his own death

I don't know about you, but if Hitler did this for several thousand years, showing that he changed this much, I'd believe him. But Paarthurnax was not Hitler in the first place.

As for the Blades, whoever gave them the right to try and manipulate me like that?! If you don't do your homework, you are grounded! Who do they think they are? And who do they think I am? I owe them nothing, actually, they owe me. That request, and even more, the way they phrased it really made me angry.

[Grove-of-Hares]

Esbern: "But he attacked 'us' so long agoooobbaawwwww!"

Delphine: "What he said."

I really want to help them with my next character, but I find it so difficult to care about the two, and as a result, the modern day Blades.

[RedDeadFred]

Whoever we compare Paarthurnax to, he

1) turned against the evil he served earlier than anybody else
2) the fact that the men/mer revolted at all probably had a lot to do with him
3) risked his own life in the process
4) gave weapons (shouts) to the men to help them
5) went out of his way to change and hopefully teach everybody else to be peaceful, just so that history could not repeat itself
6) while he waited and waited on the spot where Alduin disappeared to try and stop him if he ever returned
7) at the end, gave you weapon to defeat Alduin, knowing that there was a good chance it will mean his own death

I don't know about you, but if Hitler did this for several thousand years, showing that he changed this much, I'd believe him. But Paarthurnax was not Hitler in the first place.

As for the Blades, whoever gave them the right to try and manipulate me like that?! If you don't do your homework, you are grounded! Who do they think they are? And who do they think I am? I owe them nothing, actually, they owe me. That request, and even more, the way they phrased it really made me angry.

Ya me too. I definitely fus ro da'd them off the mountain when they told me to do this at High Hrothgar.

[Sansreal]

Whoever we compare Paarthurnax to, he

1) turned against the evil he served earlier than anybody else
2) the fact that the men/mer revolted at all probably had a lot to do with him
3) risked his own life in the process
4) gave weapons (shouts) to the men to help them
5) went out of his way to change and hopefully teach everybody else to be peaceful, just so that history could not repeat itself
6) while he waited and waited on the spot where Alduin disappeared to try and stop him if he ever returned
7) at the end, gave you weapon to defeat Alduin, knowing that there was a good chance it will mean his own death

I don't know about you, but if Hitler did this for several thousand years, showing that he changed this much, I'd believe him. But Paarthurnax was not Hitler in the first place.

As for the Blades, whoever gave them the right to try and manipulate me like that?! If you don't do your homework, you are grounded! Who do they think they are? And who do they think I am? I owe them nothing, actually, they owe me. That request, and even more, the way they phrased it really made me angry.

And yet... And yet.

What was his reason for doing all of that? And please don't try to say that he suddenly realized that everything the dragons were doing was wrong. That doesn't happen. He even says that he overcame his "evil nature through great effort". Even if that great effort happened during the war, what was the motivation for that? There is nothing without a reason, and no action without a motive. Everything he has done, from that day to this one has been a ploy for power, plain and simple. He looked at how things were going and decided that he would prefer to try the route that allowed him a miniscule chance for ultimate power, instead of guaranteed ultimate destruction. That's when he helped the dovahkiin of the time create Dragonrend, those twisted words of hate, and hid himself at the throat of the world to await the one who might find a way to destroy Al-duin and clear the path for him to become Dovah Thur,Dragon Overlord.

He says that he would not trust himself, for it is never wise to trust one of the Dov, even going so far as admitting the call to dominate that he feels.

As soon as he said that, I responded "Then you know what I must do." He slowly shut his eyes in resignation.
And then we unleashed, and the thunder of our thu'um could be heard for hundreds of miles around, striking fear into the hearts of man, mer, and beast alike.

After the battle was over the winds died down, as if Nirn herself were holding her breath at the solemn moment. I stood over Paarthurnax, and surveyed what I had wrought with my voice. His twitching wings were tattered and unable to hold air, and several of his spines had been broken along with one of his crowning horns.

I looked down and saw my past, barely defeating the draugr overlord in Bleak Falls Barrow, witnessing my first giant, and Aela's disdain at me remaining a bystander in its defeat, slowly earning the respect of the Companions for my aptitude to kill things, until becoming Harbinger, following whispers of the Dark Brotherhood to an orphan's house in Windhelm, bringing about their end in a massacre of their "Sanctuary", following the call of the Greybeards to High Hrothgar, learning and mastering the power given to me, desperately trying to find a way to defeat Al-duin before he destroys everything I know, a journey culminating in my triumphant slaying of the World-Eater within Sovngarde by the side of the great Dragonborn of the past.

Only... only that wasn't the culmination. Al-duin was an enemy, one who would have slain me had I not slain him. Paarthurnax, though. Paarthurnax was a dear friend, who guided me to that victory. And now I could see his body, broken by the voice that he helped me master, bleeding the last of his life away. And now I could see... The slaying of Al-duin wasn't the end of my "Main Quest". This was, this is the end of my quest. As I absorbed him into myself, I wept, for I knew that neither of us had any choice.

The Dovah Sos calls the Dov to domination, but it is corrupted when flowing through others. It made me a creature of destruction. Nothing could stop me from my chosen course. Death comes on swift wings at the hands of the Unwinged. But that is all I could do. I kill, and kill, and kill, with no end in sight to the killing.

His soul and body were entirely gone now, leaving only a mutilated collection of bones at the peak of a mountain. And me. Killer. Standing, alone, at the peak of the Monahven, I did the only thing I knew how to do.

I killed.

[Rynkar]

I think he really did reform, after all the bad he did when he stepped back, he realized what he was doing so much wrong, he helped the humans overthrow a greater evil than himself.
Years later when the dragonborn came, he helped him without question, if he really wanted to overthrow Alduin, he would have attacked after right after dragonrend was used.
He hopes to reform all dragons even though he knows only a few will follow him.

[SAMIAM]

In response to the people who cut off their support to the Greybeards after hearing that they wanted the world to end...

The Greybeards are a mixture of many philosophical teachings on Earth. They have Nihilism, Buddhism, Kant-ism, and well some Albert Einstein logic in them as well. I don't think they care if Alduin "eats" the world because they think the world will just start again maybe not exactly the same but whatever existence they have will simply go on. Pherpa the journey to their enlightenment is simply letting go of what concerns them on Nirn. In the end death takes us all and bickering about whether or not your soul is going to be eaten doesn't concern them, all that matters is that they understand the voice.

[soda popinski]

I didnt kill him, because there is a bug that prevents you from doing so if you dont do it right.

I hope beth actually patches this, the ONE thing that i didn't like about oblivion was the delicate gloves I had to wear while stealing Anjarhi's ring (however you spell her name, you know who i mean)

[apploud]

Paarthurnax says that he followed Alduin because he was supposed to. Dragons were made by the Gods to dominate and rule with Alduin ruling the dragons. But they obviously aren't unthinking beasts and Paarthurnax saw that what they were doing was wrong and did EVERYTHING in his power to put an end to it. He even goes out to force the remaining Dragons to adhere to The Way of the Voice or (I would assume) be destroyed.

It's not Justice that "The Blades" are wanting. They want a bitter rage based on half of a story to be vented against a Dragon that has done them no harm, and whom their Ancestors obviously forgave so long ago when the initial deeds actually mattered.

[Wolfie]

Paarthurnax says that he followed Alduin because he was supposed to. Dragons were made by the Gods to dominate and rule with Alduin ruling the dragons. But they obviously aren't unthinking beasts and Paarthurnax saw that what they were doing was wrong and did EVERYTHING in his power to put an end to it. He even goes out to force the remaining Dragons to adhere to The Way of the Voice or (I would assume) be destroyed.

dose that excuse it? should a man who gose on a killing spree in USA then gose hide where none can find him, makes a group that really dose nothing, they dont really do much.
Would you want him to walk free?
Just becuse he was told he had to do it then relized it was wrong?
or so he says.

It's not Justice that "The Blades" are wanting. They want a bitter rage based on half of a story to be vented against a Dragon that has done them no harm, and whom their Ancestors obviously forgave so long ago when the initial deeds actually mattered

Working with someoen dose not mean you forgive them, proof? Ulfric and the empire to stop Aduin.

[MARS]

Anyone rational enough to see that the blades have twisted ideals and that the Greybeards are wise will opt not to kill Paarthurnax. He and the Greybeards were the greatest help. What did Esbern and Delphine do? Delphine did nothing and Esbern helped you find and elder scroll that you could have found anyway. The blades cling onto a purpose they no longer have. They are pointless.