A few problems imo

[Gallus]

Let me start by saying that Skyrim has become one of my favorite games of all time (and I've been playing PC games since the early 90's).

I've logged well over 300 hours in the game so far. I've played a pure melee 1h warrior + shield Nord, dagger-only Thief Khajiit, a Breton destruction / alteration mage, and Redguard paladin (1h + restoration, heavy armor)

I love the stories in the game, graphics are very nice especially after tweaking / mods, and gameplay is very fun.

My main problem with the game is that difficulty can get too easy very fast even on master difficulty. On my 1st play through I originally combined Alchemy, enchanting, and smithing to create extreme weapons and armor which made even the hardest content in the game laughable at best. Of course, I saw that this was a problem on MY part, because maxing all 3 crafting skills on one character is just asking for trouble.

So on my next few play through's I stuck with only one crafting skill that complimented my character's build. This turns out to STILL be overpowered even on master difficulty. Using only smithing, without the aid of potions or gear, I was able to make weapons and armor that trivialized the monsters in the game to the point where it was no longer a challenge. Same happened using only enchanting. So my conclusion is that either crafting skills need to be nerfed, or monsters need to be made harder (Mainly Master-Difficulty scaling improvements)

Next, I feel there should be more monsters in dungeons. Clearing dungeon after dungeon it seems that 90% of your encounters are no more then 1 or 2 enemies at a time, it really takes away from the fun of what could be very intense, challenging and fun battles that could really show off your character's skills.

Lastly, Shouts. Many shouts are near-useless(if not completely useless), Which in my opinion is a HUGE shame because they are a very interesting idea, and with 20 different shouts they have so much potential to be an amazing part of the game. (Not to mention how much of the lore and storyline revolve around shouts, they should be a huge part of gameplay, ESPECIALLY end game)

by early-mid game, damage shouts like Fire and Ice Breath almost completely useless(They do almost no real damage with extremely long cooldown). Once you have Dragonrend, that's practically the only shout you use on dragons (So much for A "debate").

I would propose a Perk tree specifically for Shouts! This, along side allowing shouts to scale with your level, might breath some life into them. As of right now, by time you get over lvl 20-25 there are maybe 2 or 3 useful shouts. (Even then, they are not that useful).

In conclusion, I would really love to hear what this community thinks of my points. I'd also be interested to know if anyone(specifically experienced modders) think that shouts, mob count, or difficulty could possibly modded / improved 3rd party wise, or if any of it would have to come specifically from official patches.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

*EDIT*. I Just remembered, Master Spells, just about all of them, are near useless or completely useless when compared to the adept / expert spells of the same school. A few of them could be made useful by cutting down the casting time. Others need the effect ramped up in damage or effectiveness.

-Nick

[Evil-i]

Well, if you're finding things are becoming too easy for you, you can always equip crappier weapons and armour, and you don't have to use the most powerful spells in your inventory.

[Narzul]

That's not the solution and you know it.

[Gallus]

Well, if you're finding things are becoming too easy for you, you can always equip crappier weapons and armour, and you don't have to use the most powerful spells in your inventory.

Funny you say that, because that's exactly what I've done.

My current character is lvl 48 using blades armor, with only 1 perk point in Heavy armor mitigation bonus, and standard crafted using no potions or smithing gear.(Sitting at about 380 armor rating)

Also using a blades longsword, standard smithed, no enchantments.

But as Narzul said, hardly a solution to the problem. More like a band-aid on a severed limb.

[Evil-i]

I'm wondering what life would be like for a character with some fully-perked skills, yet restricted to non-improved iron weapons and fur armour.

My free-roaming Orc master craftsman/explorer is going to get a taste of this, seeing as how he's going to use nothing but the Woodchopper's axe and Miner's pick.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

So you can't just not use perks at all?

[Will Zurmacht]

Thread: Balancing Skyrim
Thread: Self-Imposed Restrictions...

All of the things you mentioned can and will be modded by the hordes of modders chomping at the bit for the Creation Kit (ETA January 2012). On a more humorous note, Beth said it would be releasing balance tweak patches some time in the near future.

Skyrim will get better and better by degrees (progressing from good to great) after the CK is released. It will be a totally different game by the end of 2012 (at least for PC Ubermenschen). There are already several ambitious overhaul mods at Skyrimnexus, but right now they can only consist of texture packs and minor setting tweaks, like cell respawn times or merchant gold.

[Gallus]

Don't bother, already tested that for you.

If you play master difficulty. You need at least 50-75 point damage weapon for the game to not be a snooze-fest (IE hacking a single mob for 10 minutes to get a single kill). So how ever you get there (Be it a smith-improved steel sword, or a vanilla ebony weapon) doesn't matter

As for armor. if you do ALL the perks in heavy armor (base 5/5, 25% for all heavy armor, and 25% for matching set) you can basically wear ANY set of armor in the game on master difficulty and be more then strong enough even for ancient dragons.

So you can't just not use perks at all?

How many self-imposed handicaps does one have to do to play a damn AAA game title?

Ya I could run around ass naked at level one using nothing but my cawk to fight mobs.

Give me a break man.

Thread: Balancing Skyrim
Thread: Self-Imposed Restrictions...

All of the things you mentioned can and will be modded by the hordes of modders chomping at the bit for the Creation Kit (ETA January 2012). On a more humorous note, Beth said it would be releasing balance tweak patches some time in the near future.

Skyrim will get better and better by degrees (progressing from good to great) after the CK is released. It will be a totally different game by the end of 2012 (at least for PC Ubermenschen). There are already several ambitious overhaul mods at Skyrimnexus, but right now they can only consist of texture packs and minor setting tweaks, like cell respawn times or merchant gold.

Cool. With a good mod consisting on proper shout damage scaling, more random mobs in dungeons, and mob difficulty, skyrim will be 100x better (Which is scary because it's already very fun).

Thank you for easing my anxiety .

/waits for Jan 2012!

[mcjordalini]

I have noticed this. I just like to think it's because my character is really strong and well developed. Some parts still prove to be a challenge for me though, which creates balance. Stop thinking of it being game breaking to be strong, and pace yourself ... Don't rush to get the best stuff etc, to test how strong it can be. Just play. I know you said you logged over 300 hours playing, which is good, but ... Try and think of it differently. :p

[Gallus]

I have noticed this. I just like to think it's because my character is really strong and well developed. Some parts still prove to be a challenge for me though, which creates balance. Stop thinking of it being game breaking to be strong, and pace yourself ... Don't rush to get the best stuff etc, to test how strong it can be. Just play. I know you said you logged over 300 hours playing, which is good, but ... Try and think of it differently. :p

If you'd have read my post, you'd know that I didn't Rush to get the best stuff and played exactly how you suggested.

My guy is wearing unenchanted blades gear.

Not Ebony, not deadric, not dragon.... Blades gear (about the same as steel plate).

Hardly rushing for best stuff if you ask me.

[Gallus]

Also, master level spells, suck. They either do too little, or take too long to cast.

[dem]

Well, I am 59 and my reflexes are not as sharp and adrenaline is just not as fun to me as it was when I was young. I like games when they are easy. I like solving the puzzles and doing the adventure and getting into the story as much as possible, I set the game as easy as it goes and I still end up dying (and I HATE dying.) To me dying and going to a previous save is a cheat. So I guess the answer is to make the difficult setting more difficult and the easy setting easier. It should have been easy to do, It is a computer after all. What I really don't like is how the game gets more difficult as you get more powerful. Seems like the game punishes you instead of rewarding you for your accomplishments. My strategy is to spend a lot of time getting real powerful with the easy quests and then have a lot of one-sided fights where I overwhelm my opponents during the main quest. Seems all the quests are about the same.

[Gallus]

Well, I am 59 and my reflexes are not as sharp and adrenaline is just not as fun to me as it was when I was young. I like games when they are easy. I like solving the puzzles and doing the adventure and getting into the story as much as possible, I set the game as easy as it goes and I still end up dying (and I HATE dying.) To me dying and going to a previous save is a cheat. So I guess the answer is to make the difficult setting more difficult and the easy setting easier. It should have been easy to do, It is a computer after all. What I really don't like is how the game gets more difficult as you get more powerful. Seems like the game punishes you instead of rewarding you for your accomplishments. My strategy is to spend a lot of time getting real powerful with the easy quests and then have a lot of one-sided fights where I overwhelm my opponents during the main quest. Seems all the quests are about the same.

I agree 100% with you.

I'm not advocating for making the game harder for everyone, but the game should offer a challenge for everyone. At this point in time, master difficulty for my wife, my friends and myself is simply too easy for us. Easy to the point where we manually handicap ourselves with lower-level gear and not using any enchanted items that would give us an advantage all while setting the game on master difficulty.

There is NOTHING wrong with playing the way you like to. Skyrim's story (main quest and side ones) are very entertaining. I too enjoy listening to the dialog and reading all the books I find. I enjoy taking in the scenery and occasionally not fast traveling just to explore or feel more immersed. I'm with you there.

But I also like the battles to be challenging for me as I enjoy that feeling of my heart racing because I'm almost out of potions, i'm surrounded by monsters and I don't know if I'm going to live or die. But right now that experience dies out before I can do 2 or 3 quest lines on one character.

So yes, I'm with you. Easier "easy" difficulties, and much harder "master / expert" difficulty could only help the game be better for everyone.

[Mai'ik]

Hey Dem.. I'm 60.. agree with you 100%..
Where i split off is, I purposefully play god mode. I'm here for the story. Hell, I survived vietnam, thats war enough for me, but a good story is always welcome and skyrim has oodles of them. Its like watching a television series where your one of the actors so to speak..
But, I digress..
If you have the PC version, open the console and enable all spells. This also enables all shouts. If you think they're too weak, theres shouts in there that go up to 200 points damage per second.. difficulty too easy?? you can also set your characters level, even reducing it.. Might make it a wee bit more interesting for you..

[Gallus]

Hey Dem.. I'm 60.. agree with you 100%..
Where i split off is, I purposefully play god mode. I'm here for the story. Hell, I survived vietnam, thats war enough for me, but a good story is always welcome and skyrim has oodles of them. Its like watching a television series where your one of the actors so to speak..
But, I digress..
If you have the PC version, open the console and enable all spells. This also enables all shouts. If you think they're too weak, theres shouts in there that go up to 200 points damage per second.. difficulty too easy?? you can also set your characters level, even reducing it.. Might make it a wee bit more interesting for you..

I am already playing a highly restricted game atm based on many of the suggestions on the Self Imposed Restrictions thread on these forums. It's working "ok".

I made this thread just to be another voice. Hopefully our opinions will matter to official devs and modders and they will fix the game so that you don't have to use console commands and avoid certain class-types just to make the game "challenging" on master difficulty.

Also, always nice to chat with other veterans. I'm an OIF veteran myself. Nice to meet you.

[Jeff]

Thread: Balancing Skyrim
Thread: Self-Imposed Restrictions...

All of the things you mentioned can and will be modded by the hordes of modders chomping at the bit for the Creation Kit (ETA January 2012)........

This is actually the problem... Bethesda knows it can put out a half-arsed game.., and half-arsed patches... since someone else will fix it for them. ...good luck to those playing on a gaming console.

The fact that this, and those other topics exsist, shows how poor the production of this game was/is.

...except for the CTD's, which are expected...

Really... do you expect your cable to shut off during a show...? do you expect your cell to drop calls...? do you expect your car to just shut down in the middle of the road...?

Would you keep a car, or any other product, if you had to keep getting repairs on it?

[metaphysician]

Yes, yes, so poor a production that its already sold millions of copies and will proceed to bankroll everything Bethesda does for the next four years or so. Because building a giant sandbox game is easy, anyone can do it. *rollseyes*

Anyway, I suspect the underlying problem is that Skyrim is not meant to be "hard", in the sense that you mean it. Yes, if you properly build your character, its easy even on Master. Thing is, I think that was intentional. The game isn't *supposed* to force the player to build a singularly optimized build played with epic reflexes in order to do well. Or, as I've phrased it elsewhere: its not Dark Souls, and its not *supposed* to be Dark Souls.

[thefinalrune]

I always find it interesting the differences in how people view games. In general (or at least most voiced) players tend to relish challenge and complexity of survival. Things like requiring food, sleep, drink, etc. are usually the name of the game along with increased difficulty and reduced player power potential. And, I understand and even think the same, often wishing my character wasn't gobbling down two dozen whole heads of cabbage because I mistakenly left home without any potions. But, on the flip side of things, I also want to feel like my character is indeed 'gifted' by the gods, so being overpowered only seems justified.

Would I like more dangerous dragons though, absolutely.

Still, I'm more a content over challenge type of gamer. After I completed my first play through, I now intentionally give my character max stats and all perks with the console right from the very start of the game. The tedium of challenge is less rewarding to me personally than the rewards for exploring and seeing lots of fun single hit kill animations.

Still waiting on the harder dragons mod though. For being mythical end bringer beings, they're kind of pathetic.

[dem]

This is a great thread Gallus and I agree with you completely. Morrowind had like 200 levels of difficulty. They suggested you start on easy and go up 10 levels for every level your character goes up. At level 20 you would be playing on Max. I eventually ended up playing the whole game on max after I learned the game pretty well. So I think the answer is to just play and learn. I am just starting to get into alchemy and smithing and enchanting. I know that my perk selection has not been very good either. My latest character is not having too many problems. I have a little sneak a little armor a little archery a little smithing and a little one handed and it is working a lot better than putting everything into archery. Hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will be bored with the game while playing it on hard too. Yeah I am on a xbox Ma'ik so I can't be God. The difficulty is a personal preference and I appreciate the hard core gamer. It is incredible what they can do. I sometimes laugh at myself for what a big kick I get out of solving a puzzle or picking a lock or spotting and avoiding a trap. I love the game and I just need to learn more about enchanting and so on.

[mcjordalini]

I have noticed this. I just like to think it's because my character is really strong and well developed. Some parts still prove to be a challenge for me though, which creates balance. Stop thinking of it being game breaking to be strong, and pace yourself ... Don't rush to get the best stuff etc, to test how strong it can be. Just play. I know you said you logged over 300 hours playing, which is good, but ... Try and think of it differently. :p

If you'd have read my post, you'd know that I didn't Rush to get the best stuff and played exactly how you suggested.

My guy is wearing unenchanted blades gear.

Not Ebony, not deadric, not dragon.... Blades gear (about the same as steel plate).

Hardly rushing for best stuff if you ask me.

Whoa whoa whoa. :p No need to get defensive.
Just trying to help and throw my two cents in.

[Gurney]

These kind of threads always reek a little of self-aggrandizement to me. "Even on super-hardcore difficulty i find the game too easy, pretend to sympathise with me please, but really, bow down and worship thou mere mortals". Not sure that's true in your case but still, that's how this kind of thing makes me feel.

Basically i think you just need to deal with your apparent difficulty problem and have as much fun as possible.

Using damage vs hitpoints as an indicator of difficulty in game is never going to be ideal, at some point balance becomes impossible once either you one shot enemies or they do it to you. The only way to overcome this problem in a perfect way is to increase the actual AI of the enemies so that while statistically equal, they can use tactics, have more abilities at their disposal and can co-ordinate more efficiently to overcome us. Unfortunately our "humans" current programming skill is not capable of creating sufficiently advanced intelligences able to challenge our own at games more free-flowing and random than chess right now.

Once AI in the game can be programmed to hunt, gather and utilise resources, plan strategy, recruit alliances and "desire power" or execute deeper motivations, we may see games that are truly challenging. In the meantime, roleplay and playing the game in a more relaxed manner with fun and immersion rather than "winning" as the objective can be greatly rewarding.

[Gallus]

Yes, yes, so poor a production that its already sold millions of copies and will proceed to bankroll everything Bethesda does for the next four years or so. Because building a giant sandbox game is easy, anyone can do it. *rollseyes*

Anyway, I suspect the underlying problem is that Skyrim is not meant to be "hard", in the sense that you mean it. Yes, if you properly build your character, its easy even on Master. Thing is, I think that was intentional. The game isn't *supposed* to force the player to build a singularly optimized build played with epic reflexes in order to do well. Or, as I've phrased it elsewhere: its not Dark Souls, and its not *supposed* to be Dark Souls.

I'm not sure what dark souls is. Sounds like some lame console game.

As for difficulty, neither of us are capable of knowing if it was meant to be "easy" or not. I'm simply stating an opinion that the game is easy for me, and I'm hoping for a mod or an official patch that will make the game more challenging, and stated my opinion on which areas could be fixed or enhanced.

Just like any aspect of a game, there is no one "winning" quality that makes an entire game. Skyrim imo is a great game, simply because the amount of things it does great vastly outweighs the very few faults it has.

For me, if I had to give Skyrim a rating from 1 - 10, I'd give it a solid 9.0. (half of a point for random tiny bugs / game stability crashes, and the other half a point for lack of game difficulty).

The 4gb mod fixed crashing for me, and I'm told modders will be able to fix the difficulty.

So, Skyrim has nothing to be ashamed of, imo.

[Lindai]

Well, if you're finding things are becoming too easy for you, you can always equip crappier weapons and armour, and you don't have to use the most powerful spells in your inventory.

This is exactly what I do. I'm now using Fur/Forsworn, a Longbow and Iron Arrows and a Skyforge Steel dagger, improved and enchanted. It's made the game so much fun to be able to use whatever armour you want to and not have to worry so much about dying all the time.

[Gallus]

These kind of threads always reek a little of self-aggrandizement to me. "Even on super-hardcore difficulty i find the game too easy, pretend to sympathise with me please, but really, bow down and worship thou mere mortals". Not sure that's true in your case but still, that's how this kind of thing makes me feel.

Basically i think you just need to deal with your apparent difficulty problem and have as much fun as possible.

Using damage vs hitpoints as an indicator of difficulty in game is never going to be ideal, at some point balance becomes impossible once either you one shot enemies or they do it to you. The only way to overcome this problem in a perfect way is to increase the actual AI of the enemies so that while statistically equal, they can use tactics, have more abilities at their disposal and can co-ordinate more efficiently to overcome us. Unfortunately our "humans" current programming skill is not capable of creating sufficiently advanced intelligences able to challenge our own at games more free-flowing and random than chess right now.

Once AI in the game can be programmed to hunt, gather and utilise resources, plan strategy, recruit alliances and "desire power" or execute deeper motivations, we may see games that are truly challenging. In the meantime, roleplay and playing the game in a more relaxed manner with fun and immersion rather than "winning" as the objective can be greatly rewarding.

Games can be balanced. I agree better AI is the best way to make a game more challenging, but games can be balanced statistically. (If you think otherwise, then you haven't been playing PC games very long). In fact, there are many games that almost solely pride itself on Balance. (Starcraft, Counter Strike, Guild Wars.). 3 Examples from 3 completely different types of games.

Also, you take the point of this thread, and myself, completely wrong. First of all, I could care less what people think of my skills in a single player game VS AI monsters. I have online games for showing that off. The point was to make constructive criticism about what I deem as game flaws, get community feed back / ideas, and information on possible future mods that address the issues I posted about. Nothing more.

Also, just like mcjordalini, you obviously skipped over the comment I made about enjoying the game as is. I currently play around with different characters, self-induce handicaps if the game gets too easy, and have been reading the lore, exploring, and just having a relaxing time playing the game and enjoying the tons of side quests and stories.

The game has much to offer, there is no doubt about that (as I've already said multiple times). But the game can be better. Why settle for less then perfect?

[dem]

If I wanted to make the game harder the first step is of course to not have a follower. I would prefer to not have one but they really help. BTW I took some of the hints here and smithed, enchanted and poisoned my bow and even at very low levels it makes an incredible difference. Does anyone happen to know that when you get a 3X sneak attack does it triple just the base damage or all or just some of the increased damage?