Stormcloaks or Legion - which do you prefer?

[Mai'ik]

I took the legions side for one good reason. Its the fastest straightest line to the emperial throne...

[Mai'ik]

I'm siding with Ulfric for two main reasons:

1) With the exception of the Dunmer in elder scrolls and the Drow in D&D, I hate the elves. They have such long lives yet they have so little purpose. My Skyrim character is a cannibalistic Nord noblewoman, who's more than a little crazy, and I've decided one of her character traits is a deep hatred of the elves (except as the main course).

You can see how from a roleplay perspective it would make sense for her to back someone like Ulfric, who's nearly as bad as the Thalmor when it comes to racial prejudice.

2) I WASN'T EVEN ON THE LIST. If we've learned anything from this series its that the Empire has a habit of unlawful arrest without due process.

Worse....

Spoiler:

The book "The Crimes of Ulfric Stormcloak" the forsworn of Markath were living peacefully and on the verge of having the empire concede their sovereignty When Ulfric invaded and tried wiping them out, for the sake of the "true sons of Skyrim". The Forsworn are really the true sons and second only too the dwemer. His attack gauranteed that the empire would never allow skyrim to secede. Ergo, the [&@%!] off forsworn king in a prison. Ulfric attacked a peaceful people ( at that time ) with the intention of exterminating them.

So i hope your characters a nord...

[lostlast]

I'm siding with Ulfric for two main reasons:

2) I WASN'T EVEN ON THE LIST. If we've learned anything from this series its that the Empire has a habit of unlawful arrest without due process.

Stormcloaks! Stormcloaks! Stormcloaks!

[Wolfie]

Worse....

Spoiler:

The book "The Crimes of Ulfric Stormcloak" the forsworn of Markath were living peacefully and on the verge of having the empire concede their sovereignty When Ulfric invaded and tried wiping them out, for the sake of the "true sons of Skyrim". The Forsworn are really the true sons and second only too the dwemer. His attack gauranteed that the empire would never allow skyrim to secede. Ergo, the [&@%!] off forsworn king in a prison. Ulfric attacked a peaceful people ( at that time ) with the intention of exterminating them.

So i hope your characters a nord...

how ever the biased stand on the book is aparent, and no one seems to mettion it which is weird, you thik his enemeys would eat that stuff up.
so is it true? I dont know, skyirm did something others did not, have books that are wrong, a lot of books.

[Mai'ik]

I'm in complete agreement with you Wolfie.. I made my choice of sides based on what i perceived. Windhelm was in shambles. Many of its people were starving and neglected. Crime was if not rampant then ignored and allowed to run free.. Solitude is a depressed city filled with a lot of people who know nothing but false faces and arrogant facades.. Only whiterun seemed to be prospering, and they were neutral.. ::chuckles:: Good old bulgraf. always thinking of himself, but he also cared for his town.. We know what happens to whiterun if we join the stormcloaks, and having seen the condition of windhelm, well, it wasnt even a choice really.. Also, the easiest way to the throne, in my opinion is by having the people come to love you.. Not just the Nords, but all the people.. The best and easiest place to accomplish that, is from inside the empire, rather than as opposition..
truthfully though, i dont think theres a right or wrong in any ones decisions about which faction to become a part of. I dont know where Bethesda is taking the story after this, so who knows.. we can only hope..

[OblivionDuruza]

Just thought I'd revisit this after having completed both sides of the story. I can now say, without a shadow of a doubt (and trust me, even when I was arguing the side of the Empire before, I still had my doubts) that I would much rather the Empire to the Stormcloaks, and apart from a lot for the brutality I saw on the side of the Stormcloaks, and their racism, the major defining factor in my opinion is actually based upon the heartache of Adrianne Avenicci, the blacksmith I actually added to the Wiki back when Skyrim was just a speck. I asked her yesterday what had changed under the Stormcloaks, on my Stormcloak player, and she said, not much, however now I don't do as much business, because the Stormclaoks wont do business with non-Nords. And I think this sums it up, to use the words of Legate Rikke, Ulfric wasn't always, but now is, a self-serving egotistical git. He cares not for anyone but his "true Sons and Daughters of Skyrim," not for other races, not even for other Nords. The Empire, in contrast, is tolerant of all, and while they are generally in it fro the Empire, they are at the very least tolerant of others, and they aren't the 'bad guys' as Tullius puts it before he is put to death by Ulfric, they are the Nords and the Nords are the Empire, as Jarl Balgruuf puts it when he is deposed by the traitor Vignar Grey-Mane. And for this reason, I am proud to ware the armour of the Imperial Legion, and to serve this Empire until my dying breathe.

[FrostyInferno016]

Just thought I'd revisit this after having completed both sides of the story. I can now say, without a shadow of a doubt (and trust me, even when I was arguing the side of the Empire before, I still had my doubts) that I would much rather the Empire to the Stormcloaks, and apart from a lot for the brutality I saw on the side of the Stormcloaks, and their racism, the major defining factor in my opinion is actually based upon the heartache of Adrianne Avenicci, the blacksmith I actually added to the Wiki back when Skyrim was just a speck. I asked her yesterday what had changed under the Stormcloaks, on my Stormcloak player, and she said, not much, however now I don't do as much business, because the Stormclaoks wont do business with non-Nords. And I think this sums it up, to use the words of Legate Rikke, Ulfric wasn't always, but now is, a self-serving egotistical git. He cares not for anyone but his "true Sons and Daughters of Skyrim," not for other races, not even for other Nords. The Empire, in contrast, is tolerant of all, and while they are generally in it fro the Empire, they are at the very least tolerant of others, and they aren't the 'bad guys' as Tullius puts it before he is put to death by Ulfric, they are the Nords and the Nords are the Empire, as Jarl Balgruuf puts it when he is deposed by the traitor Vignar Grey-Mane. And for this reason, I am proud to ware the armour of the Imperial Legion, and to serve this Empire until my dying breathe.

While individual Imperials may hold sentiment and Nords who support it may have their good reasons (with exceptions, of course), the Mede Empire has generally shown that Skyrim is little more than a resource to them. Ulfric may have his flaws (some have their origins), but at least he's a Nord and a son of Skyrim.

As for racism? Only a few Nords exhibit it, and usually for their own reason(s). Elves, in particular, have been their enemy for thousands of years... As for Avenicci: 1) She's an Imperial (whom the Stormcloaks are at war with) and 2) Her father was the steward to Balgruuf...who was just ousted.

[Mai'ik]

Doesnt matter what most nords think of other races. It only matters what the high chief thinks should the stormcloaks win, or perhaps i should say, what his general and adviser thinks as he's the one in ulfrics court fanning the flames of war and building ulfrics ego. An old man looking for a warriors death and too cowardly to seek it on his own.. Look at Ulfrics city. He cares less about the people than he does his own little world within the palace.. Hes disgusting..

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

I'm guessing most people will go with the Stormcloaks, as sadly the gamer demographic is far more filled with "fight the MAN!" crowds rather than less teenage ideas about the world.

[Evil-i]

I'm not planning on joining either side.

[WRXpilot]

I'm guessing most people will go with the Stormcloaks, as sadly the gamer demographic is far more filled with "fight the MAN!" crowds rather than less teenage ideas about the world.

Actually, most polls I've seen lean the other way, with most going imperial.

I think there are a couple things at play:

1 - In the last game, the whole point was to save the Empire/world from destruction. The Empire was unquestionably the "good guys", and I think there's simply a lot of carry-over from Oblivion that assumes the empire must be a force for good (since all the big events since have happened off-stage, and can quite easily be missed/minimized if you're not into seeking out the lore).

2 - #1 reason I see against SCs is "ZOMG they're racist Nord Nazis!", which, to borrow your phrase, I find disturbingly "teenage" an idea.

On one hand, I'm glad today's youth have a negative view of racism. OTOH, the blanket dismissal of Nord attitudes as simple racism indicates a very shallow view of the situation, and a complete inability to roleplay from the POV of a homogenous culture that is facing real (in-game) threats to its cultural identity, and is reacting to those threats in varied ways.

The Nazi analogy fails because the Nazis invented a "threat" to their culture/nation in the shape of an unpopular minority, and went on to pursue policies of aggressive expansionism & genocide based on this fabricated "threat". The Stormcloaks have NOT fabricated the Thalmor threat, their nation IS subjugated/colonized by the empire, and they ARE facing real religious persecution at the hands of the high elves, who are literally kidnapping & murdering Skyrim's citizens at will, with the empire's blessing/inaction.

So, as you can see, I feel there are plenty of legitimate, well-considered, non-"teenage" reasons for choosing to side w/ the Stormcloaks.

There are an equal number of well-considered reasons to choose the Imperial side. Beth did a really good job of keeping the choice very grey. Neither side are saints, and neither are evil. That means the choice is completely up to you, and how you want to roleplay your character; and either side can be a valid choice no matter what moral disposition you want your character to have (unlike, say, the DB & most of the Daedric quests - which are really hard to justify if you're playing a "moral"/good char).

[FrostyInferno016]

WRXpilot...you have articulated my thoughts in a way that I have failed to do in nearly a month. I thank you.

[Wolfie]

I'm guessing most people will go with the Stormcloaks, as sadly the gamer demographic is far more filled with "fight the MAN!" crowds rather than less teenage ideas about the world.

Whats funny is is it worst to have "fight the man!!!" or to follow blindly?

I pick them for may reasons the main one is, I for one, know for a fac, if it was not for "fighting the man" U.S.A would not be here.

I also am very very biased to free religion, I think many, many, of these so called "teenage ideas" are very adult, Have you looked around the world? How many movements against governments have adults in them?


The Nord’s have a good reason to leave the Empire IMO
and its a very "teenage idea" that just because you pick one side it means you picked it for one reason. And that reason must be the same as every one else who picked that side

[OblivionDuruza]

Beth did a really good job of keeping the choice very grey. Neither side are saints, and neither are evil. That means the choice is completely up to you, and how you want to roleplay your character; and either side can be a valid choice no matter what moral disposition you want your character to have (unlike, say, the DB & most of the Daedric quests - which are really hard to justify if you're playing a "moral"/good char).

Although personally I've seen a lot more support for the Stormcloaks on the net, I totally agree with you as far as both sides being imperfect and tainted, in fact, I actually found myself sympathising with the Stormcloaks more as an Imperial than as a Stormcloak, strangely enough, although I still wasn't at the point of regretting the decision per se, 'because General Tullius and Legate Rikke have me won over , while Galmar Stonefist in particular, and Ulfric too to a degree, is one of the characters who I respect, but do not like.

Anyway, aside from that slight tangent, the moral ambiguity of both sides of the Civil War, the equally valid (well almost ) arguments for either cause and the overarching distrust and dislike towards the Thalmor really colour the game, in a fairly good way, although not perfectly, IMO.

[comeatmebrah]

I went with the Stormcloaks not because I supported their personal beliefs or anything like that. It was merely because the Imperials wanted to chop my head off for no justified reasoning i.e. my being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As such, being the vengeful [&@%!] that I am, I destroyed the entire Legion in a pure act of vengeance in hope that I would one day strike down that female captain whom ordered my death. I never got my revenge but the Imperials were demolished as collateral and as a result, I think that female captain is either dead or out of the job by now. Satisfied.

I also massacred the entire Dark Brotherhood for kidnapping me and for trying to initiate me into their organisation, without so much as saying 'please'. Impolite barbarians! The three other kidnapped captives I also slaughtered because they threatened me. I also ganked all their belongings for good measure.

edit: I never liked being the Stormcloaks errand boy so every night at the full Moon, I infiltrate their villages as a werewolf and feast on the youngun'.

[SilentPsycho]

in hope that I would one day strike down that female captain whom ordered my death. I never got my revenge but the Imperials were demolished as collateral and as a result, I think that female captain is either dead or out of the job by now. Satisfied.

If you followed Rolof the Stormcloak when you escaped, you got to kill her. She had the key to the gate.

[comeatmebrah]

in hope that I would one day strike down that female captain whom ordered my death. I never got my revenge but the Imperials were demolished as collateral and as a result, I think that female captain is either dead or out of the job by now. Satisfied.

If you followed Rolof the Stormcloak when you escaped, you got to kill her. She had the key to the gate.

Oh gosh darn it! I saw her retreating but I went with the other Nord soldier because he had a commanding demeanour and wicked hair, and I thought I could get his brand of conditioner off of him. But after I found it was just plain dirt, I tried to kill him. Also, I wasn't armed and in chains so I thought following her would result in my execution.

[Torinir]

I went with the Imperials. Lesser of two evils in my books.

Spoiler:

Although Mabel Black-Briar being made Jarl of Riften left a very sour taste in my mouth.

[RHMajic]

I agree with both. The legion are a**holes, because they're careless, lick the Thalmor's a**es, don't care about the Thalmor trying to take over, and they are just pushovers, but I understand how they try to keep balance. They are also quite rude, if you do their questline, no one really rewards you, or make you feel like part of the family.
With the Stormcloaks, I agree with how they're trying to take back their lives, and stop it from getting ruined because of the pushover legion, and their questline make you feel like part of the family, although Ulfric ignores you afterwards... -_-. My only hatred for the Stormcloaks is Ulfric's carelessness for the person racism involved with the Stormcloaks, I.E: THE GREY QUARTER. He either doesn't care, or doesn't know, either way, he needs to get a grip on his soldiers and rules.

[SAMIAM]

With choosing a side, its not good vs evil its shades of grey squaring off. Each side has right and wrong to it.

Stormcloaks are a rebel force trying to push out the Legion but at the same time seem to be a bunch of racists who are sour that the great war went the way it did. Also many of the NPCs and the Thalmor Ledger on Ulfric claim him to have his own agenda rather than care about the freedom of Skyrim and its people. I admit when I first read the ledger or document on him found in the Thalmor Embassy I figured he was a Thalmor spy just put in to start a war. He's the Thalmorian Canidate? idk

The Legion is a beat up mess in the 4E. They cling to the territories that they do have because they need resources for the inevitable second war with the Thalmor. However in fighting this civil war the Legion has forgotten its own laws and regulations and treats prisoners of war as murderers and criminals rather than surrendered combatants.

[Valus]

I joined the Legion, mostly because then I can say things like,
"You rebel scum,"
"We will crush the rebellion!"
and
"For the Emperor!"

[Yomnom]

I went with the Legion first and I can see their point of view, but I'm not a big fan of them. The empire is weak and I believe they're done either way.

On the other hand I sympathize with the Stormcloak ideals but detest Ulfric's character. His city is racist. I believe all he wants is power. But I do think Skyrim should have it's independence.
In the battle for Whiterun, Jarl Balgruuf did make me feel pretty bad about my actions (when I joined the Stormcloaks)... and I sort of liked him.

Bethesda really succeeded at this. Decisions, decisions.

[Berzerker]

I went with the Imperials. Lesser of two evils in my books.

Spoiler:

Although Mabel Black-Briar being made Jarl of Riften left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Spoiler:

She already controlled the city the Empire just made it official

[FrostyInferno016]

Same thing kinda happens in Markarth for the Stormcloaks.

[steve the pwny]

i prefer the stormcloaks, truthfully it's all because of Ulfric, he is such a charming person