TheNightFather wrote:I read 'The Talos Mistake' today. The author, while clearly biased, makes a valid point - treating Talos as a god takes away from the memory of Tiber Septim, the man.
But he actually literally became a god and that's significant on more than just a cultural level. In TES, worship matters. If it lessens, the actual god's strength weakens. Since Talos purposely replaced Shezarr, a god whose cult had weakened in the Empire and whose powers actually keep the universe from dissolving...well...as far as the honeyed words of "The Talos Mistake" go,it's a lot like the romantic pickup lines that poon hounds use, or the manipulative speech of politicians or snake oil salesmen. To quote that Redguard bounty hunter in Skyrim "Don't be fooled by a pretty face. You're better than that."
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.
I by no means buy the book - it's Thalmor propaganda. However, the fact remains. Were Talos not revered as a God, Tiber Septim would be revered as a man. I think it's important to remember the man.
I believe the difficulties of resolving the human and elven positions on the worship of Talos largely stem from the fact that the word god is used to signify drastically different conceptions of divinity. To the average human worshiper the word god is merely a designation for any Ada of sufficient stature and benevolence to make worship an efficacious activity. In contrast, the elves distinguish between various supernatural entities using a number of different criteria, particularly their relationships to chaos-change/order-stasis, and the origin of Mundus. Now Talos is by all accounts a deified aspect of Shor/Lorikhan, making him in the elves view a Padomaic-Daedra.
Viewed in this way I think it hardly surprising the Thalmor take such a hard-line on Talos worship.
May I touch on the Thalmor a bit. They are long term strategists. This has been shown in their tactics & witnessed by the Blades. Their hatred of Talos seems more & more like a strategy. To what end, who knows. One thing it might do is drive a wedge between men & the Aedra. This would be problematic for the race of men. As Talos, before his apotheosis was a man, berating him in such a way also has propaganda properties to it & cause demoralisation, especially in the Nords who are peerless warriors.
Make no mistake, regardless of the spiritual or metaphysical aspects of Talos, putting him in a bad light will have far reaching consequences that would only benefit the Thalmor.
Basically don't believe the bovine manure that is fed to you.
Talos is a god, he was a great king & emporer. Though some of his decisions may have been dubious. So was some of the Nerevarines & the Champions. That doesn't detract what they accomplished.
My Dovahkine killed Pathunax. Trading an evil for the future greater good. The rebirth, of an old & illustrious organisation.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
I'm going to go another way in his God hood, he is a God, but not as high as we make him, he belongs in the nine but maybe its me but he seems to come off as the "leader" in olvion and morrowind, if anything he may be above one or two (if such a chain exist) but not the peak or 2nd greatist
I see no reasson to deny his God hood, how ever his level is a defreint matter, what I find worth saying, all of the other "minor" God;s i've met have been alive, none of them where "ascended" like Talos is, that to me seems to mean SOMETHING is up
His shrines do give you a blessing just like any other god, don't they? Even in Skyrim.
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.
In regards to people's concern for the destruction of one institution namely the greybeards in favour of the blades. I agree, but in the near future it's the Thalmor are going to be the greatest threat & even though the blades were wiped the floor with by them. I think they would've learned by their mistakes & not be so complacent. Remember the greybeards probably wouldn't help much anyway. I am nit saying the choices made were right only necessary, I think that's the crux of the Talos debate. Regardless of any questionable decisions he may have made, as a man. I'm sure they were necessary, Akatosh still thought it right to bestow upon him godhood.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
As for the order of importance within the pantheon of the gods. I would suggest it would be like this Akatosh, Stendarr, Kynareth, Zenithar, Mara, Arkay, Dibella. With Talos not being in the list. I would suggest he is alongside & equal to even Akatosh himself. His importance is is given because he's a bridge between the divines & mortal man. From what I've read the implication seems to suggest that Akatosh agrees.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
I would say he is technically a Daedric Ada, in that he was born after the Dawn era and took no part in creation.
Moreover as the Shezzarine he would be Padomaic rather than Anuic. Not that any of this has ever stopped humans before.
Remember Arkay was also created/born after creation. So in real terms he's not an Aedra either. Though it seems that the words Aedra/Daedra are more about celestial placement & ethical alignment then what the original terms were. Also remember Aedra/Deadra are Dunmeric terms, I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere what term the originally referred to themselves as.
On a separate note it's interesting that Nirn was created by chaos aligned entities.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
Perhaps, but doesn't worship in the Cyro-Aldmeri tradition hinge upon a divine entity having a quasi-biological interest in Nirn's welfare?
Also, I would hardly call Auriel chaos aligned.
JBeata wrote:I would say he is technically a Daedric Ada, in that he was born after the Dawn era and took no part in creation.
Moreover as the Shezzarine he would be Padomaic rather than Anuic. Not that any of this has ever stopped humans before.
Daedra were born before the Dawn, not after. The mortal Tiber Septim was a man. The god Talos mantled a Divine who was a Padomaic, not necessarily an Aedra or Daedra. Those terms are Aldmer and exact. Lorkhan was the Heart of Sithis, a force of raw change. Aedra or Daedra would be too small as terms to encapsulate his qualities.
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.
It becomes a semantic argument especially when the beings of power (Aedra/Daedra) refer to themselves in terms that were originally coined by mortals (men/mer). At the end of the day, regardless of alignment Talos went through apotheosis & was made a divine by Akatosh himself.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
JBeata wrote:Daedra simply means "not-our-ancestors"
Means, 'Our Stronger/Better Ancestors' in Dunmeris
On Talos, it's my view that he does not deserve a place alongside deities like Akatosh, per se. The only reason he attained power is due to the work of Shezarr and the fact he was a Shezarrine, in fact, Shezarr's replacement. He deserves a similar place to the Tribunal, or the Saints, both Dunmeri and Alessian. Remember, the Saints also offer out blessings all across Vvardenfell, even the lesser ones, but this doesn't make them gods.
On Talos, it's my view that he does not deserve a place alongside deities like Akatosh, per se. The only reason he attained power is due to the work of Shezarr and the fact he was a Shezarrine, in fact, Shezarr's replacement. He deserves a similar place to the Tribunal, or the Saints, both Dunmeri and Alessian. Remember, the Saints also offer out blessings all across Vvardenfell, even the lesser ones, but this doesn't make them gods.
Hmm I wonder, has there ever been a display of his power aginst another God?
or even the "minor Gods"?
I don't know, I feel like he belongs, why? becuse if he dont, then there is AT LEAST one more that don't and when you relize that in reailty, the 7 them selfs are a combine of mutiple relijions you relize its not to far fetch
I'm undecided on the point of Arkay as such, partially because of his sphere (it could have been he was reborn as a man or similar - some notion related to life and death perchance), and partially because we don't actually know that much about him, whereas we know a lot about Tiber Septim the man.
If Talos isn't a god, what is he(I was going to say 'if Talos isn't a true Aedra', but he isn't as that's something very specific)? He has all the aspects of godhood & has been recognised by all in the pantheon to be a god. I personally wouldn't agree at all that he was like Vivec or other members of the tribunal. The were mortals, all be it powerful one. Probably no more powerful then Count Hassildor & all he is, is a vampire who's a master wizard. He is a god, just nit one that came about in the original way, but then again neither was Arkay.
I used to be an adventurer, but then I broke my GF's IPhone 4 & she mutilated me in a rather personal manner
Biggsydaboss wrote:If Talos isn't a god, what is he(I was going to say 'if Talos isn't a true Aedra', but he isn't as that's something very specific)? He has all the aspects of godhood & has been recognised by all in the pantheon to be a god. I personally wouldn't agree at all that he was like Vivec or other members of the tribunal. The were mortals, all be it powerful one. Probably no more powerful then Count Hassildor & all he is, is a vampire who's a master wizard. He is a god, just nit one that came about in the original way, but then again neither was Arkay.
the three dark elf God's where well God's.
they got the power form the heart, it made them God's only after not goign to the ehart did they start to lost God hood
Exactly, the Tribunal gained power from the heart of Lorkhan, the Mer's variation of Shezarr, who also gave power to Talos. But even so, the other Saints, namely Veloth and Nerevar, did not gain their power in such a manner, while all the Alessian Saints, and even Talos himself derived their power from Akatosh and/or Shezarr.
