Why Mer are no worse than any other race

[JBeata]

I don't know maybe all the rest.

[Berzerker]

I don't know maybe all the rest.

Pretty much I think the worst thing the Beast Races have done is make Skooma.

[FrostyInferno016]

I don't know maybe all the rest.

Lol, eye-rolling let's you see all but what's in front of you. I have quite a bit of time for any examples.

[JBeata]

I'll let Duruza answer this one, s/he has a better command of the historical lore.
My forte is untangling Michael Kirkbride's metaphysical musings.
EDIT: I sent Duruza a pm but s/he appears to be indisposed. Regardless I think it likely the developers are shooting for a realistic degree of corruption for all concerned.

[OblivionDuruza]

Sorry JBeata, I did receive the PM and meant to reply, but I realise I never sent a response.

I can think of plenty committed by all sides, for example, the Alessian militants, although to a degree justified in their actions, desecrated the Ayleids sacred sites, e.g. Malada, and committed mass genocide against the entire race, wiping them off the map and from Tamriel for good.

The same Alessians enforced the Alessian Doctrines, an enforcement of religion, that in its essence, is little more than the enforcement of religion perpetrated by the Septim Dynasty or by the Thalmor in their abolition of Talos.

Another example is the Nordic destruction of the Falmer. Granted the Falmer fought the Nords, but the Atmorans did 'invade' so to speak. Sure the Dwemer had a significant role in the destruction of the Falmer, but there is no shrugging off the role the Nords had in the affair.

But I call [&@%!] on the claim that all or the majority of villains have been Elven. Jagar Tharn was not Elven, nor was the Underking, nor Alduin, nor Ulfric Stormcloak/General Tullius. The Blackwood Company were not Elven, neither was the Dark Brotherhood. There have been plenty of villains who were not Elven and the claim that Mer are inherently evil is simply ludicrous, even from you Frosty. So Manimarco was an Altmer, all the great Mages are. So Mankar Camoran was of Elven blood, again, like Manimarco, it fits his character both as a fairly powerful Mage and a member of the Camoran dynasty. So Dagoth Ur was a Chimer, the game was set in Morrowind after all.

[Velothi]

The Nords attack was likely after the Nordic rebellions against their slave masters - so of course there would be great resentment towards the Falmer since they were elven.

Consider the Haitain Revolution, after the African slaves had won they wanted to remove the white slaves owners from the new nation. Is this wrong? Not really, as their oppression justified their intentions and actions. Same goes for the various native-American slave rebellions in the late 17th century and early 18th century.

So likely the Falmer might have been related to the original slave owners of the Nords - hence their aggression and resentment towards the Falmer.

[ArgonianDunmer]

The Nords weren't enslaved by the Falmer where they? They came from Atmora far away from any Elves. They only fought each otherwhen the Nords came to Tamriel I'm pretty sure.

[Velothi]

The Nords weren't enslaved by the Falmer where they? They came from Atmora far away from any Elves. They only fought each otherwhen the Nords came to Tamriel I'm pretty sure.

Yes - that is when they came. But you also know the Aldmeri were also spreading through out Tamriel - after adapting a class structure within the Summerset Isles and Psjic Schism.

Likely? Their hatred of elves came from their enslavement at the hands of the Aldmeri - as the Bretons are a byproduct of Elven Slavemasters having sex with their Nordic slaves.

So when the Nords rebel - they gained a resentment for all Elves. Whose to say they're any better? They're all elves!

That's their mindset anyway; for would you readily trust another from the same kind that had oppressed and enslaved you?

[Eltee]

Considering it happened long enough ago that, to draw a real world parallel, it would be like being angry that a race had enslaved yours... In the 1100s. Really, this slavery and bloodshed happened a long, long time ago. Just 150 years after the civil war, less than the time gap from Oblivion, while not perfect, American race relations are exponentially better.

[Velothi]

Considering it happened long enough ago that, to draw a real world parallel, it would be like being angry that a race had enslaved yours... In the 1100s.

The hatreds continued because when the Chimer came to Morrowind - the Nords obviously thought that this would be another Aldmeri scourge. So they invaded to 'purify' the lands - which was not justified because this was simply attacking due to have a paranoia.

The Chimer were Aldmeri of Old - such as the Psjic Order.

So the hatred between the races has been continued because of the increased tensions and border conflicts both nations have had since the Second Era.

And - America Race relations are worse. Considering One people can be higher above another, gain more profits and have a better chance at trial due to their colour. As well as this nation not admitting its genocides against others, no reparation to those damaged as well as continuing this oppression.

At least the Nords and Dunmers admit any conflicts they have and do give some pay to the other when it has been wronged. (Such as Ordinators releasing innocents when proven and such)

[ArgonianDunmer]

But the Nords were never enslaved, the Bretons were Nedes crossed with Aldmer. The Nords came from Atmora.

[OblivionDuruza]

Velothi, ArgoDunmer is right, I think you're confusing Nedes with Nords. The Bretons were a product of Nedes and the Aldmer of Clan Direnni.

The Nedes of the region were mostly absorbed by the Aldmer, but eventually a biracial man-mer society arose, and the ancestors of the modern Bretons were born.

The Nords have no reason to hate Mer, per se, and most of them in Skyrim do not, per se. It is true that hate and fear for the Thalmor is rife across all the provinces and nations of Men though. And this is only natural when the Thalmor are a real threat to retake the Aldmeri Empire which the Men took from them, ending the Era of Mer all those many hundreds of years ago. It's like if the Dunmer rose up to take back Morrowind, of course the Empire would fear them, and as we know, fear always breeds hate and distrust.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Atmorans had been migrating from Atmora for quite a while before Ysgramor arrived. They loved in relative peace, but quite a few fell into slavery in High Rock and when they ventured south. More and more they and their Nedic cousins became slaves, especially after the Night of Tears. Ysgramor's Nords were fresh from a Civil War, and more prepared to stand their ground prior to the Night of Tears. It was after that event that they retributed and started (understandably) the long standing heritage of both distrusting and hating the Mer.

[OblivionDuruza]

Elves and men lived in relative peace and prosperity for a great deal of time, but racial tensions grew as the human population swelled, and eventually violence erupted. It's unclear how it started, but the Elves razed the Nordic capital city of Saarthal, killing the defenders and everyone unable to flee, in a slaughter that would become known as the Night of Tears.

There's no real indication of slavery I can see, only the fact that the Atmorans who became Nords were more aggressive and less compliant:

The Nedic peoples were a minority in a land of Elves, and had no choice but to live peacefully with the Elder Race. In High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, and possibly Morrowind, they did just that, and the Nedic peoples flourished and expanded over the last centuries of the Merethic Era. Only in Skyrim did this accommodation break down, an event recorded in the Song of Return. Perhaps, being close to reinforcements from Atmora, the proto-Nords did not feel it necessary to submit to the authority of the Skyrim Elves

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There's no strong evidence for the Nedes being from Atmora. Most of the lore on the Dawn era from the creation myth books seem to indicate the Nedes are indigenous to Tamriel, descended from early tribes of Wandering Ehlnofey. The ones who settled in Atmora and Yokuda, and possibly in Akavir started their own cultures and changed in their own ways. The Nords didn't change as much physically as the Redguards or Tsaesci but they did become somewhat taller, fairer of hair and skin, resistant to cold etc.

[GhostOfNumenor]

According the PGE3:

The Nedic people also changed over the centuries of their invasions from Atmora. The original Nedics of Skyrim are now known as the Nords. The ones who crossed west to High Rock, as we have said, interbred with the Aldmer there to create the Bretons, who are most commonly considered men, not mer. The Nedics who crossed south became the Cyrodiils, eventually the prisoners and slaves of the bellicose Ayleids of that region.

And the book you quoted even states the following:

Ysgramor was certainly not the first human settler in Tamriel. In fact, in "fleeing civil war in Atmora", as the Song of Return states, Ysgramor was following a long tradition of migration from Atmora; Tamriel had served as a "safety valve" for Atmora for centuries before Ysgramor's arrival. Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the "New World" of Tamriel. New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000, centuries earlier than Ysgramor, even assuming that the twelve Nord "kings" prior to Harald were actual historical figures.

Both of these not only suggest, but flat-out say that many of the Nedes were indeed Atmoran.

[OblivionDuruza]

Michael Kirkbride puts that down to shoddy scholarship, and this is a piece of Lore which is relevant to his employment at Bethesda (some of his more recent posts are less relevant because he wasn't at Beth for Skyrim's development, but this one is near Canon in my eyes):

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):
And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes =!= Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Abadal-a lists all the various tribes enslaved by the Ayleids. It makes special mention of Men of K'reath being imported from the North. If all the humans enslaved by Ayleids were from Atmora, this wouldn't be noteworthy.

A certain reading of "Frontier, Conquest" lends weight to this theory, although depending on how you read it could be talking about Atmorans, but certainly not Ysgramor's nordic fleets. It mentions Nedic people living in Cyrodill and High Rock many ages before the 500 Companions landed. It's also blurry on its wording of where they originate. Just reading this document alone makes it seem they were all immigrants, but the Abadal-a and Song of Pelinal makes it sound like there were aboriginal humans on Tamriel long before Atmoran settlers.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Problem with that is that it was never made official. Bethesda either neglected it, or purposely left it out. Either way, it's not really canon until it's canon. It wouldn't really make sense if they weren't, to begin with, so that could be a reason Bethesda kept it as it was (no new lore in Skyrim in that regard).

And Pilaf, agree with you 100%. I said it earlier in the thread, and the book I cited in my last entry is "Frontier, Conquest".

[OblivionDuruza]

Which is exactly my point, earlier men races were more submissive and did not oppose or threaten the Mer. The Nords did, which led to the Night of Tears, although the Eye of Magnus only increased the ferocity of the Falmer by all new accounts on the matter.

[GhostOfNumenor]

In that event, I blame neither the Nords (hitherto referring to Ysgramor and his line) nor the (likely) Falmer. It was two sides clashing over territory and (apparent) resources.

[OblivionDuruza]

Exactly, the Falmer were not inherently evil, and yes they committed an atrocity, a somewhat justified or at least understandable one. The Nords then committed a similar and greater atrocity for equally understandable reasons. I'm not out to prove that Mer are superior, only to show that they aren't 'evil' and to give them a fair representation.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

A lot of the loading screens and dialogue in Skyrim supports the whole "men are from Atmora" thing, but we have to put it in context. It's sort of like jingoist propaganda Nord children are taught growing up.

It reminds me of all the vague half truths and flat out lies I learned about American history growing up...the white washing of Columbus and John Smith, "America was founded by religious pilrgrims", "George Washington could not tell a lie", etc.


Some of that stuff is vaguely rooted in history but most if it's designed to cow people into submission and obedience to certain ideas. I think Tamrielic education isn't much different. It rarely paints the entire, true history of a people or a geographic location. That's what MK meant by "shoddy scholarship".

Sure it's his opinion, but it's an opinion Bethesda chose to print in some form when they included The Adabal-a Knights of the Nine. Suddenly we have a conflicting claim on the origins of men on Tamriel. It's impossible to know for sure what the truth is, but we have people who don't believe all men came from Atmora, and that's significant.

[GhostOfNumenor]

Thanks for some perspective, Pilaf.

Exactly, the Falmer were not inherently evil, and yes they committed an atrocity, a somewhat justified or at least understandable one. The Nords then committed a similar and greater atrocity for equally understandable reasons. I'm not out to prove that Mer are superior, only to show that they aren't 'evil' and to give them a fair representation.

While I wouldn't go so far as to call Mer "evil", I would say that some of the acts by specific and/or individual Mer have been such. Jagar Tharn is the closest comparable "human" (Breton, I believe) to some of the Mer in history, such as Dagoth Ur, Mankar Camoran, the Camoran Usurper, Mannimarco, Umaril, and several others.

Mer have, in turn, stood by Men on many of these occasions to bring down these evils, however it is of note that the majority of them have been Mer, or of Mer descent.

[OblivionDuruza]

You see for me, we as players are positioned on the side of man, fighting for the Empire and what not. The Alessians committed far greater atrocities towards the Mer when they ended the Era of Mer and took Tamriel for the Men, than the Thalmor have done in recent history.

As for all those villains, I remember saying this on the subject sometime in the past:

Jagar Tharn was not Elven, nor was the Underking, nor Alduin, nor Ulfric Stormcloak/General Tullius. The Blackwood Company were not Elven, neither was the Dark Brotherhood. There have been plenty of villains who were not Elven and the claim that Mer are inherently evil is simply ludicrous, even from you Frosty. So Manimarco was an Altmer, all the great Mages are. So Mankar Camoran was of Elven blood, again, like Manimarco, it fits his character both as a fairly powerful Mage and a member of the Camoran dynasty. So Dagoth Ur was a Chimer, the game was set in Morrowind after all.

And I guess my sentiment was specifically that just because some of the major foes of TES games have been Mer does not make Mer as a whole any more evil than Hitler makes the German peoples or Pol Pot makes South East Asians.