Archery Versus Magic - More Powerful Than You Think?

[Lord Elvewyn]

I know I've read magic is overpowered but I hadn't realised just how powerful archery was. For the record I'm playing an Armoured Mage but I've maxed out my archery. On a whim I thought before I logged off I'd try crafting my Daedric bow, enchanting it and my stashed Dragonscale to maximise archery and spend my spare perks on the archery. For comparison purposes Firestorm the Master level fire spell does 100 base damage, Lightening Storm 75 per second. If dual cast and with the 50% enhancement perks those rise to 300 + Impact effect for Firestorm and 225 per second for Lightening Storm. Doesn't sound too bad when compared to Fireball's 120 which is what I've been using for quite a while because the AoE comes in handy. Imagine my surprise when my bow ends up with over 500 in base damage and over 150 in elemental damage. Remember base sneak attack provides double damage, with the sneak perk this rises to triple! Here's the data in table form if that's easier.

Attack----------------Damage-----Bonus------------Total Damage if Sneaking
Firestorm ----------------300------Impact Stun------300+Impact Stun
Lightening Storm----------225------------------------225\second
Daedric Bow-& Arrows-----578-----+78fire+78frost----1,312-\ 1,890

Is it just me or is this completely absurb. Two stealth shots should kill even an Ancient Dragon, without stealth it'd take six. A mage would take about eleven. Am I missing something here? If Fortify Magic worked by enhancing the effect this wouldn't be so unbalanced, at least not towards archery. Given 100%+ Fortify Destruction just makes spells free it's of questionable worth when compared to Fortify One\Two Handed and Archery which allow almost 200% more damage. Would an HA Archer with Firestorm (AoE stun+damage) be the ultimate in Skyrim lethality?

[Will Zurmacht]

Another "Enchanting/Smithing is broken" thread? Archery looks crazy in comparison because of all the gratuitous multipliers there are for it. Base perk +100%, Smithing say +70%, archery enchants and potions +X% (100-150 perhaps), sneak +300%. The only damage multipliers Destruction has are Dual Casting, which is an anemic +10%, and the +50% perks.

That said, the damage output of AoE spells is multiplied by the number of targets, so for a more realistic comparison, imagine three targets for Firestorm, with Dual Casting and +50% perk. Damage is now 330 X 3, or ~1000 per cast, plus Impact stun. That's not bad.

[Mattbott]

my characters seem to end up slugging it out with melee and shield; since they will never meet any of these 1000 points per go heroes you mention, this is adequate to my appreciation of Skyrim so far.

I suppose the decision to make a character able to kill a dragon in one hit seems pretty absurd to me, the game is the game, it is set up to give us as much choice as possible, which includes blasting stuff with a 'maxed out' gaming method - that's a choice anyone can make , but i wouldn't judge the balance of the game

and having a 'maxed out' gaming method is fine by me

[Gurney]

No single aspect is the ultimate fighting style, they all have weaknesses. A hybrid player will always have the advantage.

[noobishlord]

No single aspect is the ultimate fighting style, they all have weaknesses. A hybrid player will always have the advantage.

^ This.

I've personally tried all sorts of combat styles, both pure and hybrid, and the hybrids always seem to be far more durable than they let on, and their combat capabilities are things to be proud of. Though, if anything, crafting skills tend to make any area of your choice overly powerful. Magicka free destruction? Thousands of damage with a sneak attack arrow? Poisons that can flatten high-level mobs and Potions that can make any battle trivial? THAT'S where the power is.

[galzohar]

No single aspect is the ultimate fighting style, they all have weaknesses. A hybrid player will always have the advantage.

If anything, the hybrid will always have the disadvantage, because you can't have more than 1 thing per hand at any given time, so investing in multiple things will make you weaker than someone at the same level who invested in one thing.

They're all strong if abused properly, but magic is by far weaker if given equal amount of abuse than melee/ranged. For melee, obviously dual-wielding is the most damage. Haven't compared archery though so not sure about archery vs melee, though I wouldn't be surprised if its lower damage (again, given equal amount of abuse).

[Narzul]

No single aspect is the ultimate fighting style, they all have weaknesses. A hybrid player will always have the advantage.

On the contrary, maxing out a single aspect will prove much more devastating than investing in several different ones.

[Mucro]

Archery is amazingly satisfying. If you get the knack, you can nail some fantastic shots.

[azuarc]

If everyone is boasting such ridiculous numbers for their archery, then what the heck am I doing wrong? Level 48, and I think my bow has 50 damage, plus 14 from the arrow? Can you actually break down where 578 comes from?

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

Melee - Because You Never Run Out Of Sword(tm)

[Lord Elvewyn]

No I wasn't saying it was broken merely imbalanced, slight difference.

[Lord Elvewyn]

If everyone is boasting such ridiculous numbers for their archery, then what the heck am I doing wrong? Level 48, and I think my bow has 50 damage, plus 14 from the arrow? Can you actually break down where 578 comes from?

Okay for the record I'm not playing an archer I just fiddled around with enchanting and smithing on my Armoured Mage using 'spare' perks. Here's the figures I came up with.

Base Daedric Bow is 29
Base Daedric Dagger is 15


Step 1 => Smith to Legendary
Ensure Daedric Smithing's been acquired then equip 4x28% Fortify Smithing pieces of Armour and swig a 114% Fortify Smithing potion

Enhanced Daedric Bow 98
Enhanced Daedric Dagger 48


Step 2 => Spend perks to gain 100% Archery and One Handed perks
Enhanced Daedric Bow with 100% perk bonus 195
Enhanced Daedric Dagger with 100% perk bonus 160

Step 3 => Enchant armour with Fortify Archery and Fortify One Handed
Swig 29% Fortify Enchanting potion [this will need to be done for each piece - potion ONLY lasts 30 seconds Unlike Fortify Barter the potion wears out during enchanting not after]

Enchant Armour with 4x48% Fortify Skill Enchantments


Result
Equipping armour and Enchanted & Enhance Daedric Bow with 100% perk bonus 554 + 78 Fire + 78 Frost + Daedric Arrow 24 (Might as well use Steel Arrows which are the easiest to get and only cost 12 in damage)
Equipping armour and Enchanted & Enhanced Dagger with 100% perk bonus still 160 plus elemental bonuses??? Are daggers not considered One Handed weapons???
Daedric Sword jumps to 477 however only 168 without the armour bonuses


Armour Outcomes
Dragonscale stands at 543 NOT including light armour's 150% perk bonus.
Dragonplate stands at 537
Daedric stands at 548

I should probably note that my Light Armour skill stands at 93 my Heavy Armour at 90. Not sure why Dragonscale Light Armour is better than Dragonplate Heavy Armour.

According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Armor armour functions as a damage reduction and caps at 80% (magic caps at 85%) reduction with an armour rating of 567 with 4 pieces of armour. With the right enchanting, smithing, alchemy and perks it's possible to reach the cap even with hide and iron armour! No shield required. Very interesting! Seems like Hearvy Armour Smithing is the best path as that unlocks the best Light Armour (Dragonscale) and Daedric weapons. No point trying to maximise armour so 6 or 7 LA perks is probably all that's required.

[Sloady]

I find playing as a mage ridiculously easy. Dragonhide, two dremora lords, dual thunderbolts, and the master level calm spell if things get too hard. Damage output on it's own isn't extremely high, but that doesn't mean you're not powerful.

[azuarc]

I see. So this really is a "tradeskills are overpowered" thread in disguise. I have bow + archery perks, with no effect from tradeskills. I have...65 damage? Something like? If I tripled that twice for smithing and for enchanting, at least I'd be in the right ballpark.

Side question: does weapon skill do anything besides unlock perks? Does it really have no bearing on damage calculations?

[A-BIack_Man]

I find playing as a mage ridiculously easy. Dragonhide, two dremora lords, dual thunderbolts, and the master level calm spell if things get too hard. Damage output on it's own isn't extremely high, but that doesn't mean you're not powerful.

How many potions do you go through? All those things cost a lot of magicka. But rightfully so, as they are very powerful.
Here's how I see it: anything and everything in this game can be very powerful if used correctly. Mages have a lot of utility, and anything else has a high damage output.

However there are still some gamebreaking mechanics. I think sneak is one of them, because you can either: kill everyone and everything in 1 hit, or hit something, take a few steps back, and hit em again. Its just impossible to find anyone who is in sneak mode.
example

The other being paralysis poisons in alchemy. I mean, at level 60 they last for 13 seconds. Thirteen. Seconds. Paralysis. It's disgusting, and I don't use it.

[Sloady]

Not as many as you'd think. I only ever use potions if I'm in a tough spot, and I get by fine on Adept.

[Gurney]

No single aspect is the ultimate fighting style, they all have weaknesses. A hybrid player will always have the advantage.

If anything, the hybrid will always have the disadvantage, because you can't have more than 1 thing per hand at any given time, so investing in multiple things will make you weaker than someone at the same level who invested in one thing.

"At any given time" can change very fast, with good management of gear and abilities, a hyrbid can adapt to use the best tool for any situation in seconds while a purist will always be limited to suffering damage when encountering his opposite combat types because he cannot be versatile and respond efficiently.

Pure combat achetypes only really work well in MMO games where members of the party can supplement the weaknesses of the others and let individuals excel in single aspects. For a singleplayer game like Skyrim where you are alone it makes sense to give yourself some versatility in support skills, unless you rely on followers, which is not really an argument for the excellence of your character.

What's a mighty pure melee warrior going to do when he's faced with enemies on an inaccessible ledge raining arrows and magic down on him ?

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters ?

What does a pure mage do when he is in combat with an enemy that is draining his mana constantly ?

Without versatility and the ability to switch to another weapon or ability, the only answer is, die.

[Belthazor]

What's a mighty pure melee warrior going to do when he's faced with enemies on an inaccessible ledge raining arrows and magic down on him ?

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters ?

What does a pure mage do when he is in combat with an enemy that is draining his mana constantly ?

1. I've never been in a situation where enemies attacked me from a spot I didn't have access to. So I don't think you'd get into situations like that, but if so, they are rare.

2. I don't know what they'll do, but the fact is that they already made a mistake by getting into that situation. You keep your distance as an archer. Don't let yourself get cornered.

3. Well, mages can reduce their magicka cost to 0. There's also magicka potions. Shock immunity. Impact. Summons. Illusion.

[Wolfie]

What's a mighty pure melee warrior going to do when he's faced with enemies on an inaccessible ledge raining arrows and magic down on him ?

Run?, if you cant get to them (btw never happens) then you cant fight

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters ?

Archers can and usely do hvae a side wepeon.

What does a pure mage do when he is in combat with an enemy that is draining his mana constantly ?

magic potion, or have the 0 mana cost.

Without versatility and the ability to switch to another weapon or ability, the only answer is, die.

No, a Archer can run away even when cornerd, may take health dmg but you still ca fight,
the only one that cant fight at all is the fighters, and that never happens in game so the point is moot.

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

However there are still some gamebreaking mechanics. I think sneak is one of them,

Oh my god, will you people stop saying sneak is "overpowered/gamebreaking"!?!?! I'm going bald here, and the skin of my forehead is about scraped off from all my facepalming!! Look, if you're a sneak-thief, YOU AREN'T IN IT FOR A FAIR FIGHT! It's PROPER ROLEPLAYING to be "unbalanced" or "unfair" in that manner! JESUS.

[Gurney]

What's a mighty pure melee warrior going to do when he's faced with enemies on an inaccessible ledge raining arrows and magic down on him ?

Run?, if you cant get to them (btw never happens) then you cant fight

Running away is not a "winning the fight" solution, it's an admission of failure and weakness in your character. Lol it's pretty easy to avoid every situation if you know exactly whats going to happen, for first or second playthroughs it's a different matter. Pretty sure there are a few situations where you are being sniped and can't immediately access the area the fire is coming from uness you've been there before and know the route up or round.

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters ?

Archers can and usely do hvae a side wepeon.

Having a melee weapon on an archer makes you a hybrid not a pure archer. ^^ No, being cornered means you are physically stuck in a corner and being staggered by melee blows, there is no room to run.

What does a pure mage do when he is in combat with an enemy that is draining his mana constantly ?

magic potion, or have the 0 mana cost.

Magic potion involves either alchemy to make or speech to buy, that's a hybrid build. And zero-cost spells are great but what about all the encounters you face before you get that perk/s ?

Without versatility and the ability to switch to another weapon or ability, the only answer is, die.

[noobishlord]

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters?

I used to worry about that, then I got infected. Now if that situation happens, I just transform into a hulking werewolf and rip whatever kept dodging my arrows into many tiny little pieces. Then I eat him/her.

((I was tempted to do an arrow to the knee joke...))

Running away is not a "winning the fight" solution, it's an admission of failure and weakness in your character.

What if you're not running away, but advancing towards future victory?

[Theificka]

Melee: Good damage, and you don't have to worry about running out magicka or arrows, but you have to be near the enemy
Ranged: Good damage, great stealth option, you are able to attack from long distances, but if you run out of arrows, you done for
Magic: Good damage, a lot of options like fury or detect life, you do have to worry about running out of magicka, however, it will regenerate

All them have a weakness, but magic is pretty overpowered, considering that you can make enemies fight each other, make weapons and allies out of thin air, protect yourself from harm, and with the Quiet Casting perk, it can qualify for stealth. + Most characters are crippled if they don't use magic at all.

[galzohar]

If you get cornered you are dumb (with very very few exceptions, when the zone is extremely small with no option to exit).

Any build can become invincible by using health potions or combining smart maneuvering with restoration spells. I don't count restoration as a build-defining skill, since all players who wish to not abuse potions pretty much have to use restoration. Not to mention, non-mages will have more mana for healing making their heals even better.

[Geonis]

it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat, thus enticing the enemy in his turn; then, when part of his army has come out, we may deliver our attack with advantage.

Yes, retreating is a viable tactic that can lead to winning the field, not a admitting of failure. Many historical battles have has this employed with great effect.

As for balance:

The funny thing about these wonderful weapons and armor is that a well prepared thrall can use them as well, and having two of these running around with said gear makes magic potentially even more powerful.

Destruction can also be amplified with potions and poisons as well, which seemed to have been ignored in the original post.