Why Did Bethesda Take So Many Spells Out ?

[mcjordalini]

See title.

I am not impressed with the selection of spells.

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

Because the market analysis determined that only 37% of players polled enjoyed the spells left out.

Same deal with leaving out spears and throwing stars. Because ranged assassins always carried around 6-foot-long strips of bendy wood to assassinate from range.

[Trelares]

Either because they were gamebreaking (chameleon, water walking, reduce resists), because they were obsolet ( damage attributs) or because some effects are nearly duplicates which do the same as a other spells and at last to take power away from mages, in oblivion a pure mage could do everything ( open locks, use illusion instead of persuasion and so on).

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

How can a single-player game be "broken", exactly?

And "water walking" is broken? Seriously?

[DorostheConqueror]

Because the market analysis determined that only 37% of players polled enjoyed the spells left out.

Simple and to the point.

It's a load of horker crap, if you ask me, but there you have it. Bethesda wants to appeal to the broadest demographic possible, and figures that the best way to do this is to encourage features that only a majority of players have been shown to use, and cut everything with a less than 50% adoption rate. Call of Duty health systems are popular with the casual gamer crowd? Sure! Include that! Naming your own potions, or wearing pants? Pfffft, who in our focus group bothered with THAT? Cut.

I'm not impressed with the selection of spells, either- the spell effects, the spells themselves, the lack of spell crafting, all of it. Bethesda really dropped the ball on the magic this time round, now, mods are our only hope.

How can a single-player game be "broken", exactly?

Everything they left out: "was broken".

It's a gameplay mechanic choice, guys! Bethesda knows what it's doing!

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

mods are our only hope.

Sorry for the possible derail, but are any Elder Scrolls games any good in the long run without mods? Would Morrowind have had any staying power without Better Bodies and the dozens of new quest mods?

[DorostheConqueror]

mods are our only hope.

Sorry for the possible derail, but are any Elder Scrolls games any good in the long run without mods? Would Morrowind have had any staying power without Better Bodies and the dozens of new quest mods?

No, probably not. But at least Morrowind had an awesome spell system right out the box; in fact, much as I love Oblivion, I've always maintained that Morrowind's magic selection was the best yet. Oblivion made the actual mechanics behind spells better (no fail casting, moar mana regen, cooler looking effects etc) but at the cost of variety, control, and fun. I guess I knew this was coming, Skyrim continuing the trend with still better mechanics (dual casting, ultra mana regen) but fewer spells and less personality from the ones that remain.

At this rate, TES VI will have three spell effects- Fire, Area of Effect Fire, and Summon A Random Demon. All will look AWESOME, be cheap enough to cast nearly continuously, and come in a grand total of six learnable varieties (Fire, Advanced Fire, Explodey Fire, Advaned Explodey Fire etc). Anyone who complains will be yelled at, because clearly decadent things like Shock damage and non-Call-of-Duty Healing were "broken" and ruined the game.

[JBeata]

They just wanted to decrease our ability to exploit errors in the game mechanics, probably resulting in less work on their end.

mods are our only hope.

Sorry for the possible derail, but are any Elder Scrolls games any good in the long run without mods? Would Morrowind have had any staying power without Better Bodies and the dozens of new quest mods?

They do for me at least, although it helps to know you have no say in the matter.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

Would Morrowind have had any staying power without Better Bodies and the dozens of new quest mods?

Yes. It's a magical game. Personally, I don't see the need for Better Bodies.

[Biggsydaboss]

I am an Xbox gamer & as much as I love the fact that the Xbox version SEEMS to run with the least amount of problems. I'd gladly swap the reliability for modding. Bethesda were toting with the twin ideas of either trying to give Xbox (& possibly PS3 users) a chance to mod, or port over the highest rated PC mods. I bet that dies a death. I want to levitate, I want 150% chameleon, I want to jump over tall buildings in a single bound, so on, so forth.
Can't afford a gaming rig (got two kids to support), so I have to admit I envy PC users sometimes. Even with the crazy updates.

[Modryn]

I was disappointed somewhat when I learned that Conjure Scamp, Clanfear, and Daedroth was out. Scamp, Daedroth and Frost Atronach were like companions to my Oblivion character (I named them even! D:). I didn't know about water walking... such a shame. Also, no spell making is also a bit of a let down, I would not mind the option too name my own spells and combine a few effects.

But, I do like the improvements made, as well as the new spells added (Bane of the Undead for instants). Using certain magic is more fun now. In Oblivion (even Morrowind) I never had any motivation too learn new spells, or even make my own for some reason. The current magic system + more depth would have been pretty neat. Maybe they'll add something in a DLC?

[DorostheConqueror]

Bethesda were toting with the twin ideas of either trying to give Xbox (& possibly PS3 users) a chance to mod, or port over the highest rated PC mods.

See, I don't even get why they can't do that NOW! I mean, modern gaming consoles aren't like they used to be; they're fully functional computers running on a proprietary OS. With the XBox in particular, I don't see how it'd be all that hard to release a tool that lets players create content on their home PC, then port the file over to their console via USB. I mean, sure, console makers have been shying away from giving end-users any sort of rights ever since said makers had a change of heart in regards to homebrew and Linux and whatnot (egads, next the peasants will start to READ!), but surely you could ease up a little bit, right? And if letting players create content on their own is really that big of a deal, well, offer a simple mod workshop as a cloud service; give players access to a limited set of tools online, and allow them to publish their finished products as DLC. That way, the company can continue to maintain rigid control over their product, while still giving the oppressed console gamers a bit of leeway.

If nothing else, making Skyrim console-mod-compatible would ensure it KILLS all other competition on the market. Which it's already doing, but hey, never hurts to overdo success, right?

[Modryn]

Bethesda were toting with the twin ideas of either trying to give Xbox (& possibly PS3 users) a chance to mod, or port over the highest rated PC mods.

See, I don't even get why they can't do that NOW! I mean, modern gaming consoles aren't like they used to be; they're fully functional computers running on a proprietary OS. With the XBox in particular, I don't see how it'd be all that hard to release a tool that lets players create content on their home PC, then port the file over to their console via USB. I mean, sure, console makers have been shying away from giving end-users any sort of rights ever since said makers had a change of heart in regards to homebrew and Linux and whatnot (egads, next the peasants will start to READ!), but surely you could ease up a little bit, right? And if letting players create content on their own is really that big of a deal, well, offer a simple mod workshop as a cloud service; give players access to a limited set of tools online, and allow them to publish their finished products as DLC. That way, the company can continue to maintain rigid control over their product, while still giving the oppressed console gamers a bit of leeway.

If nothing else, making Skyrim console-mod-compatible would ensure it KILLS all other competition on the market. Which it's already doing, but hey, never hurts to overdo success, right?

Oi, it's not up to Betheada.

Pete Hines discusses the current state of modding on console. Pete said, "The problem with the console is that it’s ultimately not our call. The console doesn’t belong to us. The console manufacturers have very strict rules about what goes on their console, how it gets put on there, what changes it makes, testing it and so forth"

Taken from here: http://www.gamepur.com/news/5618-pete-h ... skrim.html

EDIT: <.< Think I missed a part of your reply that covered that. Oh well.

[DorostheConqueror]

Yeah, I'm not blaming Bethesda. Not totally. The console manufacturers themselves are the main reason why homebrew died a quiet and ignominious death (funny what you can do when the media won't cry foul!) and this should be no surprise given the nature of proprietary, centralized, monopoly-based business models.

But while we're on the subject, I will say that Bethesda has a great deal of leverage, a great deal more than they'll let on in apologetic press releases. These guys aren't some indie developer lucky enough to secure rights to release a game or two; I'm sure if they really put their foot down, they could swing a deal.

[Biggsydaboss]

In regards to the last two comments. I'd imagine that Microsoft would be on quite good terms. Can you imagine what a coup it would be to a CK on Xbox & not on PS3, PS3 has been stated as being troublesome to write programs for. Also I imagine with the greater integration between Xbox, Windows & Windows phones it's only becoming easier. There's been a massive update to the OS of the Xbox that allows greater compatibility, I wonder if it was created partly with Skyrim in mind. I've heard Skyrim was basically built for the 360 & that's partly the reason it works with greater reliability on the console.

[mcjordalini]

In regards to the last two comments. I'd imagine that Microsoft would be on quite good terms. Can you imagine what a coup it would be to a CK on Xbox & not on PS3, PS3 has been stated as being troublesome to write programs for. Also I imagine with the greater integration between Xbox, Windows & Windows phones it's only becoming easier. There's been a massive update to the OS of the Xbox that allows greater compatibility, I wonder if it was created partly with Skyrim in mind. I've heard Skyrim was basically built for the 360 & that's partly the reason it works with greater reliability on the console.

Ah, you make a good point. I am not a fan of the new Xbox update though. I read your previous post and saw that you are an Xbox user as well ... What are you opinions on the new Xbox update ?

[Berzerker]

Yeah, I'm not blaming Bethesda. Not totally. The console manufacturers themselves are the main reason why homebrew died a quiet and ignominious death (funny what you can do when the media won't cry foul!) and this should be no surprise given the nature of proprietary, centralized, monopoly-based business models.

But while we're on the subject, I will say that Bethesda has a great deal of leverage, a great deal more than they'll let on in apologetic press releases. These guys aren't some indie developer lucky enough to secure rights to release a game or two; I'm sure if they really put their foot down, they could swing a deal.

I'm pretty sure Nintendo didn't have a problem with Homebrew untill people started using it to pirate stuff...

[Biggsydaboss]

My feelings on the update. Well if it improves the service & gives a chance to create things on PC & port them over.Joe replacing some of the missing spells, then I say go foe it. Though the greater compatibility between Xbox OS & windows remains to be seen

[MARS]

mods are our only hope.

Sorry for the possible derail, but are any Elder Scrolls games any good in the long run without mods? Would Morrowind have had any staying power without Better Bodies and the dozens of new quest mods?

Yes.


Let's see, I'll put myself into the developer's shoes here and try to answer for each missing spell effect:

Overpowered spells:
Chameleon, Reflect/Absorb (They are still there in perks and blessings but cannot be abused), Charm rendered all speechcraft unecesssary, Cure, Fortify etc all still in the game but as enchantments and alchemical effects rather than spells because just popping everything on in combat was overpowered, Feather was severely overpowered as well. Now we've got the increased carrying weight, enchantments and alchemy.

Uneeded spells:
Burden was useless, Water walking is useless, bound armour is useless, damage attribute is useless, weakness is still present in the form of poisons, dispel isn't needed as there are no negative buffs apart from poisons, telekenisis was useless.

There we have all of it. I think that Alchemy is a lot more useful now, thanks to the scrapping of some spells. I was upset over the smaller number of effects at first too but hey, what you have now is all you need.

[metaphysician]

I also find that some of the higher end spells especially are useful, for that you'll actually *cast* Blizzard or Firestorm or Bane of the Undead ( my favorite ), as opposed to previous games where by the time you could cast a Master level spell, you'd just build your own "instant death of randomness" spell.

As for homebrew, honestly, I can't see any way Microsoft or Sony *could* tolerate it. Yes, its not piracy, but its still leeching, as consoles are sold at a loss to be made up by game sales. Homebrew is essentially unlicensed games that they get nothing for, despite paying money to subsidize the platform you use. Homebrew has a place, but its on the PC.

[Biggsydaboss]

Metaphysician. If Microsoft & Sony charged a small amount for you to download user created content, Xbox live already has something like that. They could make there money that way & us console users could get to enjoy some amazing content.

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

If Microsoft & Sony charged a small amount for you to download user created content,

Like they don't make ENOUGH money from their customers. Oh you mean those executives won't be able to buy four solid gold Cadillacs, they'll have to settle with only THREE each this year? I feel so bad for those poor rich people!

[Wolfie]

Metaphysician. If Microsoft & Sony charged a small amount for you to download user created content, Xbox live already has something like that. They could make there money that way & us console users could get to enjoy some amazing content.

it is no way as easy as that. at all.
There is a lot of red tape most of us are not aware of

[Biggsydaboss]

Wolfie.
I don't doubt that for a second. The infrastructure is there to make it happen & Bethesda have said, in the past that it's possible that Xbox users could enjoy a CK with Skyrim. So I imagine Microsoft have agreed in principle it would be ok for this to happen. I imagine it's all down to the details & whether Bethesda can be bothered.

There is a Construction Set file in the Xbox version.

[Torinir]

Not going to multiquote half the thread.

XBox won't see mods. Period. Not unless it's under the pay-for banner of DLC. Why? Ask Valve about TF2. They attempted to provide a patch that included maps for free, which MS blocked because they do not allow any downloads that include new content to be free of charge. They have to be charged as DLC.

PS3... they may get mods. Unreal Tournament 3 had mods and other custom content for PS3 for free, it's just a matter of packaging the content for the console.