Thoughts on Education

[Frost Mage]

So, I've always had a very negative experience with school. College is fine, but compulsory-schooling is IMO a big waste of 12 years of our lives. We waste 12 years doing school, where everything is based on what we "should" know, while until college, you'll be lucky if you get to anything related to your interest until college. For instance, I'm interested in programming. Unless my parents want to pay $3000-a-year for some charter school, I'm not going to start enjoying anything until when, and if I go to college. I'm not insulting anyone who goes to college, as these are some of the most educated people in our society. To start our first conversation here, did you ever go to college, Avron? You have a job in literature, correct? Anyway, how much of your K-12 education are you using on a day-to-day basis?

[Biggsydaboss]

I'm a 32 year old man & I don't know what I want to do with my life. So how can society expect those half my age to do so, I'll never understand that one

[Frost Mage]

Exactly. School doesn't prepare you at all for the real world. They tell you "this is what you'll need in life" and then when you're done with it all, you're left stranded, as you just wasted the last 12 years of your life focusing on what they want you to, when you could have been thinking about you want to do in life.

[MARS]

Since I was ninja'd, here's my reply to the above posts:
Relying on school is not what you should do. As I am saying below, school only sets the guidelines. You have to find out what you want to do yourself.

The original post:
The Greek school system is crap. I've gone into greater detail in another thread, I'll see if I can find the post. But in my experience I do need most of the things I've learned (or should have learned) in school. For instance I have a really big gap in maths because, like you, I thought that school was a big waste of time, which makes it very difficult for me to learn the advanced maths that I am doing in university now. You said you are interested in programming, well you will need a lot of maths for that. School lays down the basics and then in college you will go into more advanced things that require knowledge of older guidelines. Sadly education isn't just about enjoyment. You will always have to do things you don't like, no matter what path you take.

For example:
I was recently discussing my education with my mum, and I was complaining that computer science is not what I really want and that a lot of the things I have to learn are too difficult for me. I told her that I should have picked literature instead because I have been an avid reader since my early childhood. My mother, having studied literature, told me that even then there would have been things that I would not like or that I would find difficult to do. It's the same everywhere.

Now, as for you, you say you enjoy programming. Programming (as well as any computer related activity) requires you to learn many things on your own. An instructor will only give you the basics and leave you to learn the tricks and secrets on your own. So before you go to college and start studying under a tutor, you could (and should) prepare on your own, by learning the basics beforehand. In my experience, classes progress far too fast for you to learn solely by paying attention and doing your homework. You have to venture beyond that and do things on your own. I don't know if you've already picked up programming as a hobby, but if not you definitely should.

[The Tom]

The role of a broad initial education is not to encourage students to specialise, but rather the opposite. It's to give the student a grounding in many things on which they can base their future prospects and aspirations. I have tried many subjects over my education, and I cannot imagine it occurring any other way. What's the point of doing just one thing all your life? How do you really know that's what you want to do?

Most of you will know that I have my first interview tomorrow at Cambridge university, where I hope to study Architecture. I got into architecture about two years ago when I suddenly discovered that my most time consuming GCSE subject, Graphic Design, was also my most enjoyable, and I ended up scoring higher in it than any other subject. Some schools don't offer Graphics at all - by your logic, Frosty, I should never have tried graphics because it's part of that broad education that you've described as a 12-year waste of time.

I don't want to sound too bitter about it but I resent the statement that our school days are a waste of time. That's a frankly ignorant view and I'm surprised that someone as smart as you feels that way. You're interested in programming, fine. Think about it at it's very basest level - you know that's what you want to do because you tried it and you found it fun, whereas you know that you don't want to do anything else because you're not interested in it. That's good. How can you say that a time of your life that gave you a set of experiences that will never again be equalled was a wasted of time? I guarantee you that if you'd specialised in computer languages from the beginning you'd be begging to get out by now.

Part of the reason I'm choosing architecture is that it's the least focused vocational subject I know of. I couldn't pick between science and humanities so I went for Architecture, which is equal parts both. Some people, like you, are more set on a specific path, and that's fine too. But I don't see how you can tell me that the 12 years you spend doing everything, even if it's just to confirm that you wanted to work with computers wasn't worth it. If it weren't for doing all the things you hate, you probably never would have settled on programming because you wouldn't have the experience to make that decision. So think about what I've said. Think about how it's not just one path that defines us, but the others that we peer down and go 'eeeh, no thanks' that only serve to make our chosen path stronger.

I'm going to go and do some more preparation now. I can't wait to see what other 'wastes of time' the world's got for me in the future.

[Narzul]

School is not a waste of time at all. Education (in other words being forced to use your brain) helps develop your intelligence properly. While I understand you may only want to learn things related to your interests, doing such a thing would be detrimental to your overall intelligence.

And then there's everything Tom said, of course, which is also very true.

[Veck]

School is by far the most enriching and important part of a human being's life. The school curriculum is a flawed beast that should be reformed from the ground up, but I don't see it happening any time soon, so I put up with it.

[Dean]

School wasn't to bad, I mean sure half the work they gave you has no relevance to normal day life, but it does help improve peoples social skills and problem solving abilities. There are quite a few people round these parts that dropped out of school(not going to home-school or anything) or just didn't bother, and those same people are retarded in both social and academic encounters.

Although I have often slated it for not teaching useful things(who gives a flying monkey about Pythagoras theorem anyway?) and wish that it would do so, it at least stops the majority of people being complete plebs. It's after school when you choose what direction you want to take, which is the point of Colleges and Universities.

I'm 19 years old and don't have a clue what I want to do, and that is not the schools fault at all. Without education you would be a pretty bad problem solver, which is one of the main reasons it is there... imagine a non-college required workforce that couldn't even solve a simple hiccup, they would be useless. Basic education is there for a reason.

You may think it is a waste of time, but how many people actually know what they want to be when they are in school? some sure, but the majority do not. It's a way of gaining intelligence while you contemplate the direction you want to take your life. When I was 8 years old I wanted to be a farmer of all things...

[Biggsydaboss]

I think school is very important, but I also realise that the system puts far too much stress on far too many young people

[n810]

I think the system as a whole needs to put more emphasis in learning and problem solving and less emphsis on rote memorization.

[Biggsydaboss]

n810 the problem with that is then how do our respective governments feed us with all the rhetoric they wish us to be filled with

[The Tom]

Wow, some of you people are really disillusioned. It's almost funny. Education, for those that can correctly propagate it, has always been about more than fact memorisation. At my school, yes I do get annoyed with how they treat portable expression, that is, what I wear and how I look. But for all that they take away, they give back to me in the form of an education that offers more than what is needed at the exam desk, complete support in whatever path I choose (and not, I should mention, any bottlenecking of what I want to do) and teachers that teach me not only the subject they love, in a way that is presentable and interesting, but also how to succeed at what you want to do, whether it's related to their own experience or not.

Maybe I'm the exception rather than the rule, but I hope someday that will change.

[Sloady]

Tis too late for us, but thankfully, schools are finally starting to realize that kids learn by doing, not by sitting in a class and reading. There are schools in the UK where kids do 80% of their GCSE's in project form. In other words, it's pretty damn awesome.

[Biggsydaboss]

The Tom it sounds like you've had an educational experience that far exceeds the average. I found school to be a place of turmoil & filled with people whose only wish is to drag you down. Some of these people were teachers. Unfortunately my experience isn't the only one, many of my fellow students have felt the same.
Also schooling isn't the only legitimate form of education, just the most quantifiable. Learning through personal experience is often far more enlightening & leaves you, not only more knowledgable but also wiser. Unfortunately you don't get a qualification for living, or I'd have a PHD lol. Also a state education is unlikely to show you the truth of things, only you nation's viewpoint. How many American children can not find Washington D.C. on a map. How many British children don't know that crisps (chips) are made from potatoes. These types of issues along with a dramatic increase in teenage suicide & depression. Also a marked increase in school bullying doesn't show state education is working well.

[everar]

Disparity of opinion here, and there's a reason for it. Not every school is the same. Some people are shoehorned into weaksauce primary schools in low-income-family zones. Some schools don't have the proper leadership to push their students socially and vocationally. Some families don’t either. Education is a multilayered holism where blame extends to your Environment and Yourself. When you have all the resources going well for you, though, learning happens in and of itself. You’re driven to do it and become good at various applications. Career-wise I find it better to pick a field based on your personality and wiggle around from there.

Ah, was just about to hit send and found that Biggsydaboss' opinions resonate so heavily with what I just wrote lol

[The Tom]

Like I said, it's a sad fact that I am part of the exception and not the rule. Perhaps education has not changed enough to keep with the altering attitudes of those it provides for. Or perhaps it has, just in the wrong, patronising direction. The number of sixth-form colleges I saw while looking around that still put little paper things up on the wall to remind their students of their basic English sickened me.

[Biggsydaboss]

The Tom, I couldn't agree with you more. I've got a child at 10 & one at 5. To see them going through the exact same issues that I did 20 years ago is crazy. Going to the school & dealing with the exact same attitudes that my mum had to is also infuriating. Not that approaching the other parents helps much. Say my child was getting bullied. If I went to parent of the child who was bullying my child the reaction I would get would range from denial to full on hostility.

[Dean]

Everyone is going to have a different view on this. Thing is, it depends on what country you go to, what type of school you went to, and general social issues.

People who go to 'paid for' schools will normally get better education then others, which is understandable really, and people who can't afford that may find that the school they went to was 'lacking' in comparison.
Money makes the world go round, an unfortunate truth.

I'm sure a lot of countries education system is different from the next, just look at how long those unfortunate Americans have to stay in school for. They are adults well before they get to leave... a bit ridiculous that one.
My point is it's kinda hard to say for definite if school is crap or not, there are to many variables for each person.

[Frost Mage]

That was nice, Scozz. How does that make you feel? /Therapist

[Taters]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you how I saw things. When I was going through middle school and high school, there was FAR too much attention payed to "teaching to the test", as, in my state, the MCAS standardized tests had newfound emphasis put on them, so teachers were actually encouraged to trim their curriculums so as to only cover what was on the test. In a word, idiotic. Not only are standardized tests, IMO, a huge waste of time(the SATs being the one possible exception, though barely), but to cut out "extraneous" learning simply so we can all be clones of each other? Madness. I also found that far too many of my teachers shouldn't be teachers. Having not too long ago done some long overdue reading on politics and the educational system, I realize that if my high school teachers were working in private schools, well over half of them would have been fired for being lousy at their job. A certain algebra teacher I had over and over comes to mind, who basically would do a problem on the board to illustrate a new formula, then say "Do you see it? Well, do it!", and expect us to be math whizzes on that alone. When I got to college, I took another algebra course, only with this teacher, he started with a very simple concept, and worked his way up until, my god, we were doing complex algebra AND WE UNDERSTOOD WHY. I still sucked, but at least I understood. For a fact, my entire college experience was much the same(and this was a community college), and I had a much easier time and learned proportionately a lot more than I did in high school. I also think that, subtle as it is, too much of early schooling is focused less on actual learning, and more on training students to be social beings who work well in a hierarchy and, at the least, accept(if not outright enjoy) "the system" the way it is. I don't know if it's me, my (fairly severe)ADD, or something else, but I've always been good at learning, and terrible at academics.

And DON'T get me started on bullying. Seriously.

[Vendetta]

I don't lean how to trade stocks or start a business, or what classes I need to take to be an animator or programmer or artist or chef. I need to be the perfect little mathematician / Scientist. They say individuality, but everyone is doing the exact same thing.

The whole "Career canter" thing is a joke as well. If you don't know what it is, it is a room in schools dedicated to aiding to what you want to be in life and how to get there, but every single book and magazine in it is an advertisement. A college says they are the most amazing thing in the world compared to those stupid other colleges! But it is THE EXACT SAME STORY WITH EVERY SINGLE OTHER COLLEGE. You are not given the pros and cons of colleges, you are not given why one college might be better for you, you are given advertisements.

[Frost Mage]

Ahhh, Vendetta. We need to talk on Skype again.

[leroybrown]

I don't have much to add here, I generally agree with Tom. Of course nobody is 100% happy but proper education is absolutely mandatory. I do think it could be easily streamlined in certain cases.

Money makes the world go round, an unfortunate truth.

Well, I'd say it a bit differently, "Money rules the world, women make the world go round." That has been stolen and paraphrased, and it is supposed to followed by my favorite quote of all time. I won't say it due to it's content. It is a truth to success in life.

[phoult37]

Has anyone thought about education for education's sake alone? Like being educated makes your a more rounded, developed, fuller human being? Sure experience is going to be the best educator, but our experience is quite limited really if you think about it. I can't go back in time and relive history; I can't travel to the rainforest and study its complex ecosystem; I can't travel all over the world and learn about every culture through hands-on experience; etc etc. Through schooling and education we are exposed to an unlimited amount of knowledge.

I agree some educators are better or worse than others. I also agree that schools have their problems. But I can't hardly understand how anyone in a modernized Western country (US, GB, etc) can complain about how poor their education system is if they compare it to countries in South America, Africa, and even parts of Asia. The fact that we can sit on this forum and have an intelligent conversation about Education demonstrates that we are educated. Whether you want to contribute that fact to the efforts of your teachers or to your own merit is up to you. But my opinion, you learned a lot more in school than you think you did.

[Frost Mage]

Has anyone thought about education for education's sake alone? Like being educated makes your a more rounded, developed, fuller human being? Sure experience is going to be the best educator, but our experience is quite limited really if you think about it. I can't go back in time and relive history; I can't travel to the rainforest and study its complex ecosystem; I can't travel all over the world and learn about every culture through hands-on experience; etc etc. Through schooling and education we are exposed to an unlimited amount of knowledge.

I agree some educators are better or worse than others. I also agree that schools have their problems. But I can't hardly understand how anyone in a modernized Western country (US, GB, etc) can complain about how poor their education system is if they compare it to countries in South America, Africa, and even parts of Asia. The fact that we can sit on this forum and have an intelligent conversation about Education demonstrates that we are educated. Whether you want to contribute that fact to the efforts of your teachers or to your own merit is up to you. But my opinion, you learned a lot more in school than you think you did.

That's what they'd like you to think. It really turns you into a person who doesn't know what the hell you want to do with your life until you're in college, when you're pretty much stranded.