Scourge of the Grey Quarter

[FrostyInferno016]

I found this book, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Scourge ... ay_Quarter, an interesting read.

I have mixed-reactions as it pertains to the situation in Windhelm. While I sympathize with the Dunmer and their position (invited in, live there a few years, and then receive gruff from a few of the less-desirable locals), but I can see where the rest of the city is coming from. Everyone earns their keep in someway, and only a few seem to be doing so. And then you have a Dunmer or few threatening to take over the city as a result of the perceived negative treatment (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim). Thoughts?

[Berzerker]

My thoughts?The author of that racist trash better hope he never meets me my blade hungers for his blood.

[FrostyInferno016]

So you don't agree that cultural outsiders should assimilate into the home-culture (outside of actual conquest, but mere immigration)?

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

If you want them back into their homeland or whatever, why don't you(after the Skyrim main quest) help the dire situation there by driving out the Argonians?

[FrostyInferno016]

The Argonians apparently contribute, though, and as far as I know haven't threatened revolution. Why send them back?

[Berzerker]

So you don't agree that cultural outsiders should assimilate into the home-culture (outside of actual conquest, but mere immigration)?

Sure when said culture refuses to let them and treats them as beneath them.Besides they do contribute they are shops in the Gray Courter yes?

[FrostyInferno016]

Just one. And he gets his merchandise throught disreputable means.

[N'wah Nern]

I'm not sure what the author means by the Dark Elves "not contributing". They seem to run their own businesses (though they refuse to assimilate, but why should they). They work on farms. There's even a well to do Hlaalu in town. The reason they live in squalor is that they inhabit a section town that was bad when they got there and Ulfric doesn't care to go look at it.

Seems like like simple racist propaganda to me. He likes it when dem foreigners adopt local culture and pretend to like their low income jobs, but as soon as they protest their poor living conditions he blames them rather than the city's Jarl.

[Berzerker]

I'm not sure what the author means by the Dark Elves "not contributing". They seem to run their own businesses (though they refuse to assimilate, but why should they). They work on farms. There's even a well to do Hlaalu in town. The reason they live in squalor is that they inhabit a section town that was bad when they got there and Ulfric doesn't care to go look at it.

Seems like like simple racist propaganda to me. He likes it when dem foreigners adopt local culture and pretend to like their low income jobs, but as soon as they protest their poor living conditions he blames them rather than the city's Jarl.

*high five*

He gets it.

...*goes to sharpen weapon*I'm coming for you Frilgeth Horse-Breaker I am coming! And when I find you...*Evil Green Ranger Laugh*

[FrostyInferno016]

I'm not sure what the author means by the Dark Elves "not contributing". They seem to run their own businesses (though they refuse to assimilate, but why should they). They work on farms. There's even a well to do Hlaalu in town. The reason they live in squalor is that they inhabit a section town that was bad when they got there and Ulfric doesn't care to go look at it.

Seems like like simple racist propaganda to me. He likes it when dem foreigners adopt local culture and pretend to like their low income jobs, but as soon as they protest their poor living conditions he blames them rather than the city's Jarl.

It's not the Dunmer's land, though. It's like someone coming into your home (who, btw, used to be your mortal enemy) and telling you how things should be. Whether the Nords should be nasty about it is one matter, but they definitely should feel offended/frustrated when an outside group comes in and complains that the conditions aren't "satisfactory".

It's a shame what happened to Morrowind, but humility is the best practice when your hated-neighbors provide you anything, let alone shelter.

[Berzerker]

I'm not sure what the author means by the Dark Elves "not contributing". They seem to run their own businesses (though they refuse to assimilate, but why should they). They work on farms. There's even a well to do Hlaalu in town. The reason they live in squalor is that they inhabit a section town that was bad when they got there and Ulfric doesn't care to go look at it.

Seems like like simple racist propaganda to me. He likes it when dem foreigners adopt local culture and pretend to like their low income jobs, but as soon as they protest their poor living conditions he blames them rather than the city's Jarl.

It's not the Dunmer's land, though. It's like someone coming into your home (who, btw, used to be your mortal enemy) and telling you how things should be. Whether the Nords should be nasty about it is one matter, but they definitely should feel offended/frustrated when an outside group comes in and complains that the conditions aren't "satisfactory".

It's a shame what happened to Morrowind, but humility is the best practice when your hated-neighbors provide you anything, let alone shelter.

So racism's okay when it's the Nords doing it?Because no offense but I've seen you condemm both the Empire and the Thalmor for doing the same thing.

[FrostyInferno016]

I don't remember condemning the Empire (who haven't really openly practiced it to begin with..?), but as far the Thalmor are concerned they've been cited for committing pogroms against outsiders. The Nords are ruthless in war, but they don't methodically root-out all those who nonviolently contradict/question them.

The "racism" we're talking about is between two entirely different species who almost naturally hate each other, in which one is entering the rightful home of another and telling them what should/shouldn't be.

Animosity is not, by itself wrong, nor is distrust...and given the circumstances, I'm trying to figure out why it's fashionable to blame the Nords?

[legoless]

The Dunmer in Windhelm are going to be the worst of the refugees, the ones who were offered free sanctuary. While the Nordic prejudice against elves is bad enough, the Dunmer don't help their case by being good-for-nothing paupers.

[FrostyInferno016]

The Dunmer in Windhelm are going to be the worst of the refugees, the ones who were offered free sanctuary. While the Nordic prejudice against elves is bad enough, the Dunmer don't help their case by being good-for-nothing paupers.

You, mi amigo, get it!

[OblivionDuruza]

Speaking from Australia, I completely disagree that refugees should be forced to assimilate, because we as a country actually tried this policy, the Assimilation Policy as it was actually called, and it failed completely. Today, things have changed, and Australia has many migrant communities, and these themselves have not caused any trouble for the 'Australian' community.

The Dunmer in Windhelm earn their keep, they just don't do it in the 'True Nordic way'. So they don't call their Cornerclub a Tavern (as one of the local Nord points out to me with disgust on his tongue), is this reason to throw them out? So they live together and they are unwilling to give up their ancestors and their very cultural integrity, the Nords of Winterhold actually benefited from the presence of Dunmer and their traditions for centuries before The Great Collapse.

Further, the problem in Windhelm, is quite clearly Ulfric and his Stormcloaks' and I say this for two reasons. First, King Torygg and the Imperial Jarls welcomed the Dunmer warmly. Secondly, because even in 4E 201, people like Brunwulf Free-Winter support and tolerate the Dunmer. And thirdly because even Ulfric's father is described as having tolerated the Dunmer and their practices.

We know Ulfric and his men hate Elves of all descriptions. Just talk to Galmar Stone-Fist, listen to the reasons why some of the Stormcloaks joined the ranks. Or just do the quest Kill the leader of Lost Knife Hideout and see that the claims Ulfric does not protect non-Nords who have been attacked by bandits, are actually true.

As for the Dunmer being good for nothing paupers, that clearly is not true. Would you describe Revyn Sadri as a pauper? Or Ambarys Rendar? Or Aval Atheron?

[FrostyInferno016]

That would all lend to a decent point if it weren't for one fact: Skyrim is the home of the Nords, and cities like Windhelm are their capitols. If the Dunmer really have a problem with it, instead of arrogantly trying to change the way of life in Windhelm, the most respectful thing to do would be to leave. A couple of them openly lament settling in Windhelm, why not follow-through and leave? The Altmer in that city have no complaints/qualms, it seems to be mostly the Dunmer, so obviously there's some kind of disconnect.

As for Winterhold, the bloody city sank into the ocean in what seemed to have been unnatural circumstances. Winterhold was the original refugee/migrant city for the Dunmer. It might be mere coincidence that such a powerful city would suffer obliteration, but then again....

[Dunmerdude]

It's not that simple, for one Skyrim was originally occupied by elves, the Nords themselves were . Just up and leaving isn't really an option, the nearest place the Dunmer could settle is Riften. A long trip through dangerous wilderness, even if Ulfric let them leave without a fight. The lack of descrimination against Aldmer is motivated by fear of angering the Thalmor, why bully the Aldmer when the Dunmer have no one to stand up for them?

Blaming Winterhold's destruction on Dunmer refugees is just ludicrous, if you’re going to cast blame for that the Collage of Winterhold, the Thalmor or some other unknown party are much better launching points.

[Wolfie]

I cant help but feel when the Dark elfs where rasict on morrowind almost evrey one aguring aginst the nords doing it where saying
"Well it is their home land so its okay."

Dark Elf's are very rascit yet most pepole cant get enough of them, yet Talos forbid anyone eles to be like that to them?

[FrostyInferno016]

It's not that simple, for one Skyrim was originally occupied by elves, the Nords themselves were . Just up and leaving isn't really an option, the nearest place the Dunmer could settle is Riften. A long trip through dangerous wilderness, even if Ulfric let them leave without a fight. The lack of descrimination against Aldmer is motivated by fear of angering the Thalmor, why bully the Aldmer when the Dunmer have no one to stand up for them?

Blaming Winterhold's destruction on Dunmer refugees is just ludicrous, if you’re going to cast blame for that the Collage of Winterhold, the Thalmor or some other unknown party are much better launching points.

Two problems with your argument:

1) It's a clear and simple choice, to either adjust to the culture of Skyrim and "do as the Nords do" or to find somewhere else where their arrogance is much more easily accepted (High Rock is a nice place). The only reason to stay in that setting without the willingness to adapt is foolish and hardship is to be expected.

2) The fact that the Altmer is treated nice isn't reflective of the Thalmor's "influence" (of which the Stormcloaks openly fight and proceed to rid Skyrim of when they win), but rather of the Altmers' acceptance of the Nord culture. They don't tout that things need to change and play the victim card, they just go about the business.


Whether the Dunmer actually had anything to do with the Great Collapse isn't relevant in this case, but moreover it's the local perception that they may have (i.e, association with the event).

[Sloady]

I think you're being ridiculous trying to justify such racist behaviour. From what I have seen in the grey corner, the Dunmer are going to great lengths to try and integrate into the city, setting up shops, businesses, taverns, etc. Not to mention, this supposed love for the Argonians is completely ridiculous! As seen if you completely the Imperial Questline, Argonians aren't even allowed into the city, because of the racist behaviour of the Nords. Maybe you should stop trying to defend the Nords and look at the facts. Which is that the racist behaviour displayed against the Dunmer in the city of Windhelm is completely and utterly unjustified, and unacceptable. However, it is worth noting that there are very few that express open hate. While Ulfric apparently wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone but a Nord, very few engaged in active discrimnation. That being said, the Nords who ignore such hate are just as guilty.

[AddictedtoMorrowind]

The Khajiit, too. People stereotype against them, saying that they are thieves and such. I personally think that Bosmer are more thievish than them.

[FrostyInferno016]

It's not racism as we understand it. This is human (Nords) and elf (Dunmer). They aren't even intellectually similar.

Windhelm is Nord territory. If the Dunmer want residence they need to go along to get along.

Besides, in Vivec there was the "Foreign Canton" and yet no one complained about it. Skyrim is Nord territory... The cosmopolitan lifestyle of Cyrodiil kind of spoiled everyone into forgetting that other provinces are lands that belong to separate races..either that, or Dunmer are somehow provided a double standard.

[Wolfie]

He dose make a good point, is it racist to hate a defreint race that is not related to you?

[Knows-Many-Secrets]

He dose make a good point, is it racist to hate a defreint race that is not related to you?

Yes. Yes it is. Racism is the hatred toward a specific group based on racial characteristics. And technically the elves and humans do share common ancestry. So they are just as much related to one another as any race in the real world.

Personally I found it rather amusing that the argonians were more well regarded in Skyrim than the dunmer (According to that one book) because they work harder and smile while doing it. Which fits their race with on top of being very strongly community driven is also littered with periods of enslavement and servitude, mostly by the dunmer. I don't think the dunmer are being treated as well as they should, but based on the ingame books I've read the dunmer don't seem to be respecting their hosts very much either.

[Wolfie]

Yes. Yes it is. Racism is the hatred toward a specific group based on racial characteristics.

that are the "same" its not rasict if the cat hates the dog

And technically the elves and humans do share common ancestry. So they are just as much related to one another as any race in the real world.

Dark elfs dont, they are a "whole new race" technically.