Stormcloak questions

[Puggles]

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that Ulfric is some sort of Thalmor automaton. My interpretation of the document is that the Thalmor tricked Ulfric into thinking he was a potential asset to them therefore making him willing to deal. Since then, he has understandably come to doubt the situation.

[EswiftFire]

Been reading up on this thread and just figured I'd share something since I haven't seen anyone mention this yet...

Now in one of my playthroughs I talked to Elisif (or someone else in the Blue Palace, can't really remember who) who talked about how High King Torygg respected and even admired Ulfric for his ideas of independence for Skryim. In fact if memory serves correct (although it usually doesn't haha ) the person even goes on to state that if Ulfric had talked to Torygg he might have followed Ulfrics lead for independence. Instead what does Ulfric do?

Exactly what the Thalmor want him to do. Kills Torygg and starts a civil war that the Empire has to deal with instead of recuperating its forces and resources. If Ulfric had just talked to Torygg he might have been able to convince him to establish Skyrims independence from the Empire. Then there would have been a united Skyrim instead of one seperated by war.

Now I know this is a lot of what ifs but IF this had been the scenario then the Thalmor wouldn't be kicking back and twiddling their thumbs while watching the Empire and Stormcloaks duke it out over Skyrim.

Just my two cents but feel free to poke holes in it

[Wolfie]

Been reading up on this thread and just figured I'd share something since I haven't seen anyone mention this yet...

Now in one of my playthroughs I talked to Elisif (or someone else in the Blue Palace, can't really remember who) who talked about how High King Torygg respected and even admired Ulfric for his ideas of independence for Skryim. In fact if memory serves correct (although it usually doesn't haha ) the person even goes on to state that if Ulfric had talked to Torygg he might have followed Ulfrics lead for independence. Instead what does Ulfric do?

Exactly what the Thalmor want him to do. Kills Torygg and starts a civil war that the Empire has to deal with instead of recuperating its forces and resources. If Ulfric had just talked to Torygg he might have been able to convince him to establish Skyrims independence from the Empire. Then there would have been a united Skyrim instead of one seperated by war.

Now I know this is a lot of what ifs but IF this had been the scenario then the Thalmor wouldn't be kicking back and twiddling their thumbs while watching the Empire and Stormcloaks duke it out over Skyrim.

Just my two cents but feel free to poke holes in it

And you know he did not try to talk to them how?
When he arived they say they all thgout he was goign to request the split, which means they knew about it, which means he had tried other ways to get it thgourgh, while we have no proof which he did, he did somethign before hand

[Rynkar]

Wolfie nowhere does it say Ulfric tried to talk it out.
By all reliable accounts, he walked in challenged the king, killed him and ran.

This said by the thane, jarl and court wizard of blue palace.

[Wolfie]

Wolfie nowhere does it say Ulfric tried to talk it out.
By all reliable accounts, he walked in challenged the king, killed him and ran.

This said by the thane, jarl and court wizard of blue palace.

go look again, they say they all exsepcted him to ask him to do it, which means what? they knew about it, how?
How do we know he never tried before?

I never said he did talk it out, just there is no proof that he jumped right in to it, the muint he first thgout "Hey the empire should leave"
they knew he was comming to do something with getting away form the empire so he had tried other things, never said talking

Also they never siad he never tried to talk either

[Nightingale]

Been reading up on this thread and just figured I'd share something since I haven't seen anyone mention this yet...

Now in one of my playthroughs I talked to Elisif (or someone else in the Blue Palace, can't really remember who) who talked about how High King Torygg respected and even admired Ulfric for his ideas of independence for Skryim. In fact if memory serves correct (although it usually doesn't haha ) the person even goes on to state that if Ulfric had talked to Torygg he might have followed Ulfrics lead for independence. Instead what does Ulfric do?

Exactly what the Thalmor want him to do. Kills Torygg and starts a civil war that the Empire has to deal with instead of recuperating its forces and resources. If Ulfric had just talked to Torygg he might have been able to convince him to establish Skyrims independence from the Empire. Then there would have been a united Skyrim instead of one seperated by war.

Now I know this is a lot of what ifs but IF this had been the scenario then the Thalmor wouldn't be kicking back and twiddling their thumbs while watching the Empire and Stormcloaks duke it out over Skyrim.

Just my two cents but feel free to poke holes in it

It's survival of the fittest. Stormcloak wanted to be High King and unite Skyrim, so how could he do that with Torygg in place? High King Torygg is mentioned several times as being a "boy", and not fit to rule as High King. Ulfric Stormcloak dispatched him with ease...what kind of High King can't even defend himself? Even the Jarl of Whiterun said that he wouldn't go down as easily as High King Torygg did.

The challenge was to send a message to the other Jarls of Skyrim, that Ulfric Stormcloak is the most powerful among them, and deserves the right to rule as an independent High King.

[Rynkar]

Well the king really wasn't expecting a shout from Ulfric, so it is a little unfair to put it it like that.
And just because you have battle prowess doesn't mean you can lead a country.
Its basically stating if Ulfric doesn't get what he wants, he'll kill you.

[Wolfie]

Well the king really wasn't expecting a shout from Ulfric, so it is a little unfair to put it it like that.
And just because you have battle prowess doesn't mean you can lead a country.
Its basically stating if Ulfric doesn't get what he wants, he'll kill you.

but thats how the Nords live, the storgnest rules, its an anceint tradition that the nords never gave up.
they dont use it cause the Empire is using poltics to make sures its own pepole are high king

[Rynkar]

But can Ulfric lead something larger than an army?
Did you hear what his post war plan is?

We will rebuild then take the fight to the thalmor.
That's easy to say, not so much in practice.
And what happens if Ulfric is defeated by a big, dumb, brute who can't even read a map?
Do we follow him then?

[Wolfie]

But can Ulfric lead something larger than an army?
Did you hear what his post war plan is?

We will rebuild then take the fight to the thalmor.
That's easy to say, not so much in practice.
And what happens if Ulfric is defeated by a big, dumb, brute who can't even read a map?
Do we follow him then?

By the way of the Nords? Yes
your preety much saying Ulfric is not worthy of leading but let me ask you this, is the Empire?
And yes they want to fight the thalmor, if someone killed your pepole, freinds and family would you not take the fight them if you had the abilty?

[Rynkar]

So we should take the war to Ulfric since he started a war between a countries own people?

And yes he empire should lead because the only problem anyone I have heard state against the empire is about talos.

[Wolfie]

So we should take the war to Ulfric since he started a war between a countries own people?

And yes he empire should lead because the only problem anyone I have heard state against the empire is about talos.

But the Empire it self was formed by a war, wars happen man, is it wrong? sure but Ulfric just wanted to free Skyrim form a diying leader

How about the fact that
A. Evrey one eles has left, alomst all the others are no longer part of the Empire
B. The Empire Gave in to the Thalmor and is telling the nords they ahve to live peacful with said Thalmor.
C. Empire dose nothing as the Thalmor are doing in skyrim

[Rynkar]

I don't understand what you mean in those 3.
But I think this response fits.

You can't openly worship talos is the only thing bad about the legion.
If Ulfric was to become leader, you could worship openly, after half of skyrim is on fire.

[Wolfie]

I don't understand what you mean in those 3.
But I think this response fits.

You can't openly worship talos is the only thing bad about the legion.
If Ulfric was to become leader, you could worship openly, after half of skyrim is on fire.

Yes but whats more worth then a God that is real?
Your use to this world where there is no proof of a God, there is proof in that world, if you knew a God was real, would you worship it?
if not can you udnerstand why its worth the death?
Faith alone is storng enough for wars, but if the God is real?

Also its not the only bad thing, go look at how many pepole are still with the Empire.
Go look at the history, the empire is falling and the empire is taking THRIR silver, their recource, their pepole, their coustums, their Gods
I could go on and on

[Rynkar]

I didn't say worshipping talos doesn't make since im saying you can worship him in private and one flaw about the empire is gone.
And they are not taking silver they are buying it.

[Wolfie]

I didn't say worshipping talos doesn't make since im saying you can worship him in private and one flaw about the empire is gone.
And they are not taking silver they are buying it.

No you cant, cause the Thalmor take you then, and the empire wont stop it

And no, they have mines of their own their, on skyrim lands that they do not buy form

lots of skyrim has Empiral areas where they do not buy it

[Squiver]

--

[Mac of Four Winds]

Stormcloaks all the way. The Talos issue is a huge deal. The champion of men, the man that created the Empire and was lifted to god-hood is now banned! Skyrim should be fighting the Thalmor not bowing down to them. The Redguards are still fighting them! Why shouldn't Skyrim!? Ulfric would make a strong High King. That's what is needed to fight the Thalmor. Skyrim built the Empire. Skyrim can destroy it and the Thalmor. Nords/Redguards should still fight. Talos help me!!!!

[Squiver]

wars happen man, is it wrong?

Yes.

/jussayin'

[Wolfie]

wars happen man, is it wrong?

Yes.

/jussayin'

So a war to free slaves is wrong?
A war for freedom is wrong?
A war for someone killing millions is wrong?
A war to stop someone form ruing the world is wrong?

[Rynkar]

Hey I didn't type that!

When I say in private I don't mean having a shrine on your endtable, you can have an amulet hidden away and I thought you said its survival of the fittest?
If a nord is captured should they be able to escape?

And if legion is mining the silver they are doing the work, its not like they are using slave labour in a previous nord owned mine.


And Yes war is wrong, its usually resorted to but its still wrong.

[Squiver]

So a war to free slaves is wrong?
A war for freedom is wrong?
A war for someone killing millions is wrong?
A war to stop someone form ruing the world is wrong?

Yes.

Using lives to attain an end is never justified. Even if the end goal is attained, how can you weigh the value of that end against that which was lost?

Hey I didn't type that!

Sorry it was misquoted.

[Nightingale]

But can Ulfric lead something larger than an army?
Did you hear what his post war plan is?

We will rebuild then take the fight to the thalmor.
That's easy to say, not so much in practice.
And what happens if Ulfric is defeated by a big, dumb, brute who can't even read a map?
Do we follow him then?

That's what he has advisers for, and the other Jarls for regional politics. It's not like he has to do everything by himself.

To be honest, the previous High King kinda sounded like a wuss. The only reason he was High King was because the Empire could control him.

[Wolfie]

When I say in private I don't mean having a shrine on your endtable, you can have an amulet hidden away and I thought you said its survival of the fittest?
If a nord is captured should they be able to escape?

Yes, just as they should be able to fight the Empire since they think they are stronger

And if legion is mining the silver they are doing the work, its not like they are using slave labour in a previous nord owned mine.

We dont know when those mines where built who made them, its possible they where made by the nords and the empire took over, we dont know

And Yes war is wrong, its usually resorted to but its still wrong.

Moral ophion not fact.

Using lives to attain an end is never justified

not fact

Even if the end goal is attained, how can you weigh the value of that end against that which was lost?

If the vaule of death is less then it would have been if they did nothing, then its okay.
in my book

[Squiver]

not fact

Well then, neither is this:

wars happen man, is it wrong?

Or this:

Yes but whats more worth then a God that is real?

Or this:

If the vaule of death is less then it would have been if they did nothing, then its okay.

Really, if we're going there, this whole thread is a moot forum of pseudo-philosophical banter, and our being here is a fundamental waste of time.