Stormcloaks or Legion - which do you prefer?

[Morrowindian]

Empire my brother, EMPIRE

Lol only reason is I accedentally joined with them instead of storm cloaks xD

[ArotosMarkos]

Have you lot forgotten who STARTED the Empire? Nords. Proud, strong, sword-swinging Nords, Nords who didn't need no stinking Nibenean poofters to carve a bloody thwath through masses of soft elf-flesh. Talos himself was a Nord, by Talos!

The Empire is dead; it died with Martin at the end of the Third Era. This... rabble, whatever it is, that claims to be an Empire, is no such thing. They're the Vichy French, a shell of a state that serves only those in power, and those in power have no goals save but to ingratiate themselves to their Thalmor masters in hopes of getting lenient treatment for themselves and their family. Why would you EVER support that?

No. Black Marsh, Hammerfell, Elsweyr, they all stand, proud and strong. Skyrim shall do the same! It is a hard road, but one that must be walked. DEATH TO THE EMPIRE! DEATH TO THE LAP DOGS OF THE ELVES!




That said, my main character isn't joining either of 'em. Once he's finished the Main Quest, it'll be high time for him to start his own faction, and put both Ulfric and the Thalmor-pets in their place. All hail the True High King of Skyrim, and the Once and Future Supreme Emperor of All Tamriel!

Christ, I missed you, Doros.

[Biggsydaboss]

All hail Tiber Septim. All hail Talos & all hail Biggsy (my character) Talos reborn in human form. His destiny to retake the empire, remove the pretender from the throne & once again we'll have an Akatosh blessed emperor. It is the will of the Divines & no power on Nirn, Aetherius or Oblivion can stand up to the will of the Divines. The Thalmor (I spit when I say that name) will not succeed. They will test the worthy & this test will forge a stronger faith in the Divines.

End of rant

[WRXpilot]

The issue is that you seem to think they would do with Skyrim what they tried to do with Hammerfell. The Thalmor learned their lesson before- they won't take Cyrodiil and then 0.5 seconds later, hit Skyrim. They would take their time, plan and plot, and attack when they have their pieces lined up. They don't need to take Skyrim a year after Cyrodiil or ten, twenty or thirty. Time would be on their side. Would Skyrim be easily their hardest conquest? Heck yes! But any belief that Skyrim by itself, alone, is somehow stronger than with the entirety of the Empire and maybe Hammerfell with it, just strikes me as unusual. It makes no sense.

Couple things. First - The Nords don't have to give the Thalmor breathing room, even if they conquered Cryodiil fully. There's nothing saying they couldn't go on the offensive against the elves, especially with help from Hammerfell and (probably) the occupied Imperials themselves. The scenario I'm envisioning would be a re-forging of the empire from the north, as Tiber Septim did at the end of the second age.

Second, as someone said, the Thalmor are at their strongest given time to plan and scheme. That's exactly what the remains of the current empire are letting them do. And worse, they're getting to do it while having complete surveillance (and a significant amount of influence) over every single move the empire makes. The White-Gold concordant broke the back of the empire and put them in an impossible position from which to go back on the offensive.

The quicker Skyrim divorces itself from the undead corpse of the empire, and forces the Thalmor out, the less time the elves have to execute their plans. The sooner the Thalmor are forced into taking action, without the benefit of their long-term planning, the better off all of humanity will be.

[FrostyInferno016]

Couple things. First - The Nords don't have to give the Thalmor breathing room, even if they conquered Cryodiil fully. There's nothing saying they couldn't go on the offensive against the elves, especially with help from Hammerfell and (probably) the occupied Imperials themselves. The scenario I'm envisioning would be a re-forging of the empire from the north, as Tiber Septim did at the end of the second age.

Second, as someone said, the Thalmor are at their strongest given time to plan and scheme. That's exactly what the remains of the current empire are letting them do. And worse, they're getting to do it while having complete surveillance (and a significant amount of influence) over every single move the empire makes. The White-Gold concordant broke the back of the empire and put them in an impossible position from which to go back on the offensive.

The quicker Skyrim divorces itself from the undead corpse of the empire, and forces the Thalmor out, the less time the elves have to execute their plans. The sooner the Thalmor are forced into taking action, without the benefit of their long-term planning, the better off all of humanity will be.

My thunder=stolen

I was going to say the same thing; but I would also add that there is an incorrect assumption that Skyrim wouldn't lend help to Cyrodiil in the first place.

[DorostheConqueror]

Have you lot forgotten who STARTED the Empire? Nords. Proud, strong, sword-swinging Nords, Nords who didn't need no stinking Nibenean poofters to carve a bloody thwath through masses of soft elf-flesh. Talos himself was a Nord, by Talos!

The Empire is dead; it died with Martin at the end of the Third Era. This... rabble, whatever it is, that claims to be an Empire, is no such thing. They're the Vichy French, a shell of a state that serves only those in power, and those in power have no goals save but to ingratiate themselves to their Thalmor masters in hopes of getting lenient treatment for themselves and their family. Why would you EVER support that?

No. Black Marsh, Hammerfell, Elsweyr, they all stand, proud and strong. Skyrim shall do the same! It is a hard road, but one that must be walked. DEATH TO THE EMPIRE! DEATH TO THE LAP DOGS OF THE ELVES!




That said, my main character isn't joining either of 'em. Once he's finished the Main Quest, it'll be high time for him to start his own faction, and put both Ulfric and the Thalmor-pets in their place. All hail the True High King of Skyrim, and the Once and Future Supreme Emperor of All Tamriel!

Christ, I missed you, Doros.

Oh, [&@%!]! Arotos! I haven't seen you in AGES, man! How's it going?!

That assumes that by supporting the Empire, we are supporting their short-term goals. The banning of Talos worship and the kowtowing to the elves was a matter of necessity- a cruel one, but one that is needed in the short term. In the long term however, when the Dragonborn is emperor of an empire where much of what is required is already in place, the road to the defeat of the Thalmor and the return of Talos worship to the people of Tamriel is shorter than if one needed to start from scratch.

In other words, fighting for the Empire now and altering it after you take over and then crushing the Thalmor will take, what, twenty years?
Fighting for the Stormcloaks and having an empire grow from that will take a lot longer.

But it's not their short-term goals that's the problem. It's the entire system. The Empire isn't some kind of grand fifty-year plan that's experienced a minor setback; it's a beaten puppet-government that clings to the trappings of a by-gone era in vain attempt to give it's rulers some form of legitimacy. The Empire doesn't WANT a return to Talos worship- that chapter's done. The Empire doesn't WANT to fight the elves- if they did, they would be still. The Empire collaborates with the Thalmor, because the Empire IS the Thalmor; it exists only because the Thalmor lets it, to keep up appearances and to keep the humans docile in lands that the Thalmor does not have the resources to conquer... yet. It's exactly the same thing the Alessians did with the Ayleids; the humans set up a kapo system, where "friendly" elves were allowed to retain their pre-war posts, until they were no longer necessary.

I mean, why did the Empire make peace in the first place? It wasn't beaten. The Elven armies had suffered terrible defeats at the hands of Imperial forces (most of whom came from outer provinces, like Hammerfell and Skyrim). Even if the Imperial forces HAD been defeated, the war would have still been far from over, right? If the Empire really WAS the Tamriel-spanning federal body it claims to be, losing Cyrodiil would have been a minor setback; it's forces would have been able to regroup and carry on the fight in any of the other provinces within it's boundaries- you know, "the Empire". Yet the Empire did not lose Cyrodiil, hell, it didn't even lose the Imperial City. The Imperial City was sacked, then reclaimed. And this alone convinced the rulers of "the Empire" to prostrate themselves in front of their Elven masters. Why? The past half century tells us two things:

1. The Empire serves only Nibenean Cyrodiil. The Empire is not a multiethnic coalition with a proud heritage banded together for security and prosperity, it's a self-glorifying city-state that uses the blood and resources of it's slave-clients to enrich a tiny caste of irrelevant and incompetent parasites. Maybe this was not always the case. Maybe the Empire really did serve some purpose, many centuries ago, in better times. Those times are long gone.

2. The various sovereign kingdoms of Man and Mer no longer need the Empire. When the wealthy patriarchs of the Imperial City tried to barter Redguard lives for their own, Hammerfell rose up and crushed the elves. If Hammerfell, with it's limited resources and drained manpower reserves, could do alone what the Empire could not and still WILL not do, what does that say about the Empire? If you want a job done, and your current contractor can't complete it, you don't wait and give him more money in hopes he'll sort out his act one of these days. You fire his ass and get some young go-getters with the skills and drive to finish it.

Face it. Your precious Empire is no more. Mehrunes Dagon WON. Now, someone will make the future. If we cling to the past, the elves will make it for us. Let's not give them that luxury.

[Sonixboom]

Empire, cause they dont want to kill or boot out of skyrim all the races that arnt nord.

-Sonix

[Noric34u]

Ulfric's speech when I first got to windhelm won me over. Amazing writing and voice acting.

Hes voiced by Vladimir Kulich who played the role of a viking king in "the 13th warrior" so it kinda fits the nord image

[Noric34u]

Noric34u
The ONLY person calling it fair, is Ulthric himself. Not even his most trusted steward will say that......

The High King accepted the challenge, its not his fault that the king could not withstand the power of the voice

[Stan RedGuard]

Many of you seem to labor under the assumption that by fighting for the Empire now, we are saying that the way it works currently is the way it will work once you/we/us/I(our characters) become Emperor, which is likely where the source of our disagreement.

The Empire as it currently is has failed in many aspects. No one is debating that, and the fact that it seems the cornerstone of all arguments is somewhat silly in the big picture. Even failing, it has all the infrastructure that is needed to manage a large empire already in place. It needs to be modified, improved, parts of it discarded. But to let that system go to waste and then build a new one over the bones of the old entails the following:

1- More bloodshed. Instead of reuniting the Empire and then taking the intiative against the Dominion, putting them on the defensive and ruining their plans, you are allowing them the time and room they need to finish the remains of the Empire off. What we saw in the Imperial City would therefore likely be repeated, even if the Nords come down and help fight again. Instead of fighting on the borders of Cyrodiil, you allow the Dominion to terrorize the citizenry of Cyrodiil. Instead of being able to dictate the terms of the fight, the Nords, if they aid Cyrodiil, will have to react initially to the Thalmor.

Plus, we seem to be assuming Nordic victory where none is assured, and Nordic cooperation where it is also not assured. Who is to say that the Nords, operating perhaps without the flexibility that the Legion provides, is to emerge victorious? Or that Ulfric will send aid to the Empire he fought so bitterly against?

In the best case scenario, Cyrodiil is ravaged before the Nords arrive and the battle is won. In the worst case, the frontline is pushed to the borders of Skyrim. Either way, the 'Skyrim Empire' you want to build is forced to either annex or liberate Cyrodiil, bringing more death to all those involved.

And if you dream of war against the Dominion, realize that the terrain is heavily stacked against the Nordic heavy armor style. You will need great flexibility to win there, something that the Empire can provide much quicker than a newly forged one.

What makes more sense- losing more people to achieve the same results, of not worse results, and taking longer to do so and weakening greatly your 'new' empire, or losing far less to achieve the same or better results and being able to do so with great speed, and allowing you- as emperor- to improve the Empire swiftly?

2- As I said before, the Empire has the infrastructure to rule in place. If you allow the Empire to fall, much of that will be destroyed or lost. The ability to effectively rule is half the system and half the people in charge- the Empire has the system, they just lack the rulers it needs. If you allow it to crumble, then when you take over, you will have the rulers but not the system. Creating the system to effectively rule is what takes time, and time will be of the essence against the Dominion.

If you instead unite the Empire and then take your place as Emperor, you have the system and you have the type of ruler it needs. You have achieved this without great expenditure of time or gold.

Budgeting seems to be one of the key missing points here. Whether it is Skyrim or the Empire, you can only go so far as Gold and Silver will allow you. Without Skyrim, the Empire is screwed and will fall violently. That brings us back to what happens in point one.

I understand that people are Skyrim-centric, but acting as if the Nords will valiantly push out from Skyrim and just by their very presence cure all problems that will plague their new lands is foolish. Allowing the Empire to collapse will only increase the difficulty, not ease it away.

3- Time. The Thalmor are smart, though arrogant, and need time for their great schemes to come unfurled. You do NOT give them the time to do so, and a fractured Empire can do little else but give them the time it needs. What will Ulfric do- jump over Cyrodiil, who would likely consider the new Skyrim Empire an enemy? Will he use the Nords' Nirn renowned skills at trickery snd spying to bring down those obviously oafish Thalmor? No. The Nords would likely come to Cyrodiil's aid when it is attacked- meaning the Thalmor have had time to plan exactly what they want to do.

Many seem to believe that by the Stormcloak's winning, the Thalmor are completely thrown for a loop and are slobbering on themselves. They aren't. Consider that Hammerfell is not going to ally wit Skyrim, who they have warred against, that easily. That Cyrodiil and High Rock, the remains of the Empire, are separated and isolated. Basically, the four provinces are now little more than four separate countries who may- or may not- have an impact in the war.

In no conceivable fashion is that somehow harder to take over from the perspective of the Dominion than a united Empire. The single greatest threat to the Thalmor is a Dragonborn Emperor leading those four provinces and using the initiative to decimate their plans and force them to engage the Empire in whatever war soon starts in a manner more befitting the Empire.


**SPOILERS IN NUMBER 4**

4- Remember, the Emperor is assassinated by the DB in the game. Who else but you now has the greatest claim to the throne? You are Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim, something that will stoke teh fires of every Nord and lover of the Empire alike. The previous Emperor was crowned after a military campaign- you, meanwhile, seem to be crowned by Akatosh himself! Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock- they will fall in line swiftly, especially with the Nords feeling as though they now are in charge(since I believe canon character is likely Nord). Hammerfell can be convinced that you, as Emperor, will destroy the Dominion with their aid and as an apology for the 'traitor-emperor's' abandonment. If that doesn't work, your legend grows as you Shout the leaders of those opposed to you into oblivion itself.

YOU are Emperor now, and of a much stronger Empire than would have existed if you tried to build one from scratch. It is faster. It is less bloody. It is more efficient. More of your strength can now be directed directly at the Dominion this way.


I understand where many are coming from. The Empire, more pointedly, the Emperor himself, has failed. We all agree on this. However, many seem to want to call a blank slate on it and restart the entire thing when that will require more bloodshed, more time, more expenditure, more risk. Use what is already there, improve, and move forward. The new Skyrim Empire could spent thirty years building up itself and it will be in no better position than a united Empire would be a year from now if the Dragonborn takes the throne.

[Sloady]

Personally? If I had to choose, the Empire, because the Empire has the opportunity to change it's ways, and could realistically - Ulfric Stormcloak is a dbag. But if I didn't, neither. Tamriel would be better off without the Empire, and without the Thalmor.

[noobishlord]

Spoiler:

4- Remember, the Emperor is assassinated by the DB in the game. Who else but you now has the greatest claim to the throne? You are Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim, something that will stoke teh fires of every Nord and lover of the Empire alike. The previous Emperor was crowned after a military campaign- you, meanwhile, seem to be crowned by Akatosh himself! Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock- they will fall in line swiftly, especially with the Nords feeling as though they now are in charge(since I believe canon character is likely Nord). Hammerfell can be convinced that you, as Emperor, will destroy the Dominion with their aid and as an apology for the 'traitor-emperor's' abandonment. If that doesn't work, your legend grows as you Shout the leaders of those opposed to you into oblivion itself.

While a very profound and interesting prospect, I highly doubt the people would take kindly to beings like Orcs, Argonians and the like becoming the Emperor. After all, the Empire is Man's Empire, not Mer's or Beast's.

[Berzerker]

Spoiler:

4- Remember, the Emperor is assassinated by the DB in the game. Who else but you now has the greatest claim to the throne? You are Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim, something that will stoke teh fires of every Nord and lover of the Empire alike. The previous Emperor was crowned after a military campaign- you, meanwhile, seem to be crowned by Akatosh himself! Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock- they will fall in line swiftly, especially with the Nords feeling as though they now are in charge(since I believe canon character is likely Nord). Hammerfell can be convinced that you, as Emperor, will destroy the Dominion with their aid and as an apology for the 'traitor-emperor's' abandonment. If that doesn't work, your legend grows as you Shout the leaders of those opposed to you into oblivion itself.

While a very profound and interesting prospect, I highly doubt the people would take kindly to beings like Orcs, Argonians and the like becoming the Emperor. After all, the Empire is Man's Empire, not Mer's or Beast's.

The Hero of Kvatch didn't get the job and s/he and Martin saved the world from Oblivion

[Stan RedGuard]

Spoiler:

4- Remember, the Emperor is assassinated by the DB in the game. Who else but you now has the greatest claim to the throne? You are Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim, something that will stoke teh fires of every Nord and lover of the Empire alike. The previous Emperor was crowned after a military campaign- you, meanwhile, seem to be crowned by Akatosh himself! Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock- they will fall in line swiftly, especially with the Nords feeling as though they now are in charge(since I believe canon character is likely Nord). Hammerfell can be convinced that you, as Emperor, will destroy the Dominion with their aid and as an apology for the 'traitor-emperor's' abandonment. If that doesn't work, your legend grows as you Shout the leaders of those opposed to you into oblivion itself.

While a very profound and interesting prospect, I highly doubt the people would take kindly to beings like Orcs, Argonians and the like becoming the Emperor. After all, the Empire is Man's Empire, not Mer's or Beast's.

If you are the Dragonborn, the first of your exact kind since Tiber Septim, then that will soothe many ills. I would also believe that the canon-character is a Nord, which would solve most issues. Also, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong(I have been watching four kids all day, am frazzles) but wasn't there a Dunmer Empress at some point in time?

@Berzerker- He/she was not dragonborn, had no real hat to throw in the ring save for being a badass. Here, you are more closely linked to the glory of Tiber Septim than anyone since him. And at a time where the Empire is searching for someone like that...

[Gepard]

Spoiler:

4- Remember, the Emperor is assassinated by the DB in the game. Who else but you now has the greatest claim to the throne? You are Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim, something that will stoke teh fires of every Nord and lover of the Empire alike. The previous Emperor was crowned after a military campaign- you, meanwhile, seem to be crowned by Akatosh himself! Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock- they will fall in line swiftly, especially with the Nords feeling as though they now are in charge(since I believe canon character is likely Nord). Hammerfell can be convinced that you, as Emperor, will destroy the Dominion with their aid and as an apology for the 'traitor-emperor's' abandonment. If that doesn't work, your legend grows as you Shout the leaders of those opposed to you into oblivion itself.

While a very profound and interesting prospect, I highly doubt the people would take kindly to beings like Orcs, Argonians and the like becoming the Emperor. After all, the Empire is Man's Empire, not Mer's or Beast's.

True, but although we're usually given the choice in game for obvious reasons, hasn't the lore usually been that a native of the province's setting turns out to be the true protagonist? I'm not positive it's explicitly stated, but I always figured the Nerevarine to be a Dunmer, and it seems the Champion of Cyrodiil was an Imperial. I would not be surprised if in the next installment, the Dovahkiin was, in lore, a Nord.

Edit: Beat me to it, Stan.

[Jaime Gemstone]

I've noticed a severe lacking in the department of Orc presence in the Legion ever since Morrowind. I know that Orsinium was destroyed once again sometime before the game takes place, but after that the details are fuzzy. I think I've heard it was rebuilt this time almost right on the border between Skyrim and High Rock. Either way, many orc refugees were said to flee to Skyrim, which is a bit odd as the only place you see large chunks of them is in their strongholds, and I don't believe I've seen a single orc in the Legion.

I saw an orc in the legion, so I ran up and talked to him. He demanded money (a "fine for tresspassing" IN THE WILDERNESS) and then killed me coz I didn't want to give it to him...

[FrostyInferno016]

@Stan
I'll answer your points one-by-one.

1--You're losing the same amount of people either way you splice it. The result of Ulfric winning is a Kingdom united where it counts with resources at their ready, and a fresh momentum to wage war on their southern enemy, while if the Empire wins, you still have bitter division and a lower overall morale for the opportunistic Thalmor to take advantage of (hence why they ultimately want Ulfric to fail).

As far as "giving" the Nords victory, no one's giving it to them. My point is that a united Skyrim, if it hearkens to its ancient ways, is a deadly force in Tamriel that saw the near-extinction of the Falmer, the conquering of the Dwemer/Chimer/Altmer, the aid in the overthrow of the Ayleids, and an influence that scared the Bosmer into committing the Wild Hunt. They are not far-removed from that power, and if they are led by a strong front (war-hero Ulfric, per example) it is highly likely that kind of power is at their beckon.

Why even mention anything about their "heavy armor"? They're Nords...their average woman is taller than the average Cyrodiilic male. And, besides that, there's nothing saying that they wear heavy armor exclusively. In Oblivion, the Legions wore nothing BUT heavy armor, however in Skyrim only the officers wear it. Kind of a weird thing to bring up, ya know?

2--This nonsense about the Empire's infrastructure makes even less sense about the "heavy armor 'issue'". The Nords have their own infrastructure. A culture/people don't exist (successfully) for thousands of years without a strong set of rules/guidelines. The Empire's bureaucratic system has obviously failed them in at least three critical junctures (Alessian, Reman, Septim), while Skyrim's much older system failed them only once in recorded history.

The Empire is doomed to collapse any way you look at it, and the Thalmor seem to be everywhere within it. If Skyrim remains a part of that, so too do the Thalmor remain in Skyrim. With the rejection of the Empire comes the rejection of the Thalmor, and a much more united front from which to fight the Thalmor, whether in Cyrodiil or from Skyrim itself.

3--If Ulfric and those who supported him wasn't afraid to war with the Empire inside Skyrim, what makes you think he wouldn't then push south? The Thalmor are already within the Empire, operating within Cyrodiil, so why exactly wouldn't Ulfric turn his attention there? The Empire might resist at first, but likely would use the Nords as a catalyst to get their butts moving. Hammerfell might have its problems with Skyrim, but it definitely has its major issues with the Thalmor who've taken its southern coasts.

So this notion that the Nords would sit behind the Jeralls is kind of silly and not really reflective of Nordic history.

4--

Spoiler:

The Emperor's death may (not) be linked with Dovahkiin possibly taking the thrown; that would depend on how the post-Skyrim lore defines the situation. It'd be neat, especially if (like someone said) he's a Nord, since it would hearken back to Talos, but that's a big IF.

My whole point is, the simplest answer is always the most likely. A united Skyrim is stronger than a divided Skyrim.

[Gepard]

I've noticed a severe lacking in the department of Orc presence in the Legion ever since Morrowind. I know that Orsinium was destroyed once again sometime before the game takes place, but after that the details are fuzzy. I think I've heard it was rebuilt this time almost right on the border between Skyrim and High Rock. Either way, many orc refugees were said to flee to Skyrim, which is a bit odd as the only place you see large chunks of them is in their strongholds, and I don't believe I've seen a single orc in the Legion.

I saw an orc in the legion, so I ran up and talked to him. He demanded money (a "fine for tresspassing" IN THE WILDERNESS) and then killed me coz I didn't want to give it to him...

Haha, down by Whiterun? Those are bandits. If you're in the Legion you have the option of saying something like, 'I'm actually in the Legion and I know damn well you aren't.' Plus, if you kill them you'll find nude Imperial soldiers behind them, from where the bandits stole their gear.

[Stan RedGuard]

@Stan
I'll answer your points one-by-one.

1--You're losing the same amount of people either way you splice it. The result of Ulfric winning is a Kingdom united where it counts with resources at their ready, and a fresh momentum to wage war on their southern enemy, while if the Empire wins, you still have bitter division and a lower overall morale for the opportunistic Thalmor to take advantage of (hence why they ultimately want Ulfric to fail).

As far as "giving" the Nords victory, no one's giving it to them. My point is that a united Skyrim, if it hearkens to its ancient ways, is a deadly force in Tamriel that saw the near-extinction of the Falmer, the conquering of the Dwemer/Chimer/Altmer, the aid in the overthrow of the Ayleids, and an influence that scared the Bosmer into committing the Wild Hunt. They are not far-removed from that power, and if they are led by a strong front (war-hero Ulfric, per example) it is highly likely that kind of power is at their beckon.

Why even mention anything about their "heavy armor"? They're Nords...their average woman is taller than the average Cyrodiilic male. And, besides that, there's nothing saying that they wear heavy armor exclusively. In Oblivion, the Legions wore nothing BUT heavy armor, however in Skyrim only the officers wear it. Kind of a weird thing to bring up, ya know?

2--This nonsense about the Empire's infrastructure makes even less sense about the "heavy armor 'issue'". The Nords have their own infrastructure. A culture/people don't exist (successfully) for thousands of years without a strong set of rules/guidelines. The Empire's bureaucratic system has obviously failed them in at least three critical junctures (Alessian, Reman, Septim), while Skyrim's much older system failed them only once in recorded history.

The Empire is doomed to collapse any way you look at it, and the Thalmor seem to be everywhere within it. If Skyrim remains a part of that, so too do the Thalmor remain in Skyrim. With the rejection of the Empire comes the rejection of the Thalmor, and a much more united front from which to fight the Thalmor, whether in Cyrodiil or from Skyrim itself.

3--If Ulfric and those who supported him wasn't afraid to war with the Empire inside Skyrim, what makes you think he wouldn't then push south? The Thalmor are already within the Empire, operating within Cyrodiil, so why exactly wouldn't Ulfric turn his attention there? The Empire might resist at first, but likely would use the Nords as a catalyst to get their butts moving. Hammerfell might have its problems with Skyrim, but it definitely has its major issues with the Thalmor who've taken its southern coasts.

So this notion that the Nords would sit behind the Jeralls is kind of silly and not really reflective of Nordic history.

4--

Spoiler:

The Emperor's death may (not) be linked with Dovahkiin possibly taking the thrown; that would depend on how the post-Skyrim lore defines the situation. It'd be neat, especially if (like someone said) he's a Nord, since it would hearken back to Talos, but that's a big IF.

My whole point is, the simplest answer is always the most likely. A united Skyrim is stronger than a divided Skyrim.

1- Why is a Skyrim under Ulfric united, while one not under him divided? In the game, as many Nords you speak to support the Empire as support the Stormcloaks. Saying that Skyrim is divided only if the Empire wins is false, pure and simple.
And the Heavy Armor issue is something to bring up. Nord advisors during the Five Year War, knowing full well that the Khajiit they advised were not accustomed or attuned to that manner of fighting, still got them to wear heavy armor during a pivotal engagement. The Khajiit lost. When they ditched that style of fighting and fought their way, they won.

What does this show? Well, if a warrior society accustomed to heavy armor can't even look at a wildly different type of fighter and even consider perhaps using that species strengths, then it would seem foolish to believe that a Nordic army would suddenly become this extremely flexible force. It isn't in their character, and that's okay- they're damn good. But they'd be at a weak point at their Nordic strength wouldn't be enough alone.

2- Skyrim has infrastructure in Skyrim. If you are talking about striking south and reforging a new empire, likely over the corpse of the last, then that well-developed provincial system that relies on Nordic values and traditions counts for very little. Their system works because, for all intents and purposes, it is heavily localized. A successful empire that would not make alone.

You yet again seem to want to win the short term fight instead of the long term fight. Yes, siding with the Empire on this day does not solve the problems. It puts you, however, in a better position to make the changes needed with less bloodshed, expenditure, and time.

3- And the Imperials would go, "Hey, in order to get to the Thalmor, the group that killed our brothers and fathers in Skyrim is attacking us? Screw what just happened and the fact that we aren't in any position to really do well, let's fight with 'em!"
Forget the fact that Skyrim is in tatters and likely is in many ways still divided, that part of its fighting force would have fled south with the Legion since they would support the Empire, that the Thalmor attack is likely to come swiftly as the Empire will be at its weakest point, that Ulfric would need time to build an actual army to take on the Thalmor in Cyrodiil and beyond.

Much of your reasoning relies on Skyrim becoming suddenly united after Ulfric takes the crown while if the Empire wins it is bitterly divided. This is a Civil War, and while the Empire has more variety to throw into the mix, it is primarily Nord vs Nord in many aspects. For every rebel there is a loyalist, and the loyalist will not suddenly fall in line whereas the rebel would struggle on.

4- And until the next game comes out, will we know? Of course not. Literally everything we discuss here is off-the cuff speculation and reasoning. I could be proven dead wrong; TES VI could be set in Hammerfell thirty years in the future and deal with a Skyrim-centric empire waging war against the nearly defeated Thalmor, whose outposts in the south remain their mainland's only holdings. Or you could be proven wrong, and the series could shift a hundred years in the future as a revitalized empire of man(with Morrowind) finally, after a series of brushfire wars, brings the hammer down on the Thalmor in Valenwood and Summerst, finishing off the grand scheme put in place by the Dragonborn Emperor.

Or neither could happen and we could play in Elsewyr and hear about the results of Skyrim purely second hand, who knows. That is what can make this debate frustrating- I can imagine the best outcome for the Empire and the worst for the Stormcloaks and others can do so vice versa, and our footing is equal at this time.

We can all agree on the same things, I believe:
1- We all want to put our boots to the neck of the Thalmor and run a sword through their gizzards.
2- We want some sort of Tamriel-spanning empire, or at least, a coalition or alliance.

[Mai'ik]

Spoiler:

The Thalmer Dossier on Ulfric clearly states that he is a Thalmer agent, a flunky/sleeper, a traitor to the nord race

Because of that, the very best you could hope for by joining the stormcloaks would be domination by an external force and ongoing warfare against the Empire.
At least by joining the Empire, you can eliminate the civil war, Unite both Nations, drive the thalmer from the face of the earth ( especially if the dragons ally themselves behind you ) Re-instate Talos worship, Claim the empirial Throne, Declare Skyrim a Free and Sovereign republic worthy of its own rulership, and establish a healthy trade agreement with the Nords.. However, its True that tiber Septim/Talos was a Nord, its also true that Saint Allesia was a Dunmer.

[Nightingale]

Spoiler:

The Thalmer Dossier on Ulfric clearly states that he is a Thalmer agent, a flunky/sleeper, a traitor to the nord race

Because of that, the very best you could hope for by joining the stormcloaks would be domination by an external force and ongoing warfare against the Empire.
At least by joining the Empire, you can eliminate the civil war, Unite both Nations, drive the thalmer from the face of the earth ( especially if the dragons ally themselves behind you ) Re-instate Talos worship, Claim the empirial Throne, Declare Skyrim a Free and Sovereign republic worthy of its own rulership, and establish a healthy trade agreement with the Nords.. However, its True that tiber Septim/Talos was a Nord, its also true that Saint Allesia was a Dunmer.

Be careful citing the Thalmor Dossier, that isn't what it says.

It says that they consider him a dormant asset, not that he is a dormant agent. He is "dormant" because at the moment, he is not very friendly towards them.

[FrostyInferno016]

That same dossier says they cannot let the Stormcloaks win. (Ill tell @Stan why he's wrong later)

[Stan RedGuard]

That same dossier says they cannot let the Stormcloaks win. (Ill tell @Stan why he's wrong later)

It says, IIRC, that they don't want either side to win- basically, a neverending war between the two is the best outcome for the Thalmor.

[Nightingale]

That same dossier says they cannot let the Stormcloaks win. (Ill tell @Stan why he's wrong later)

Mmhmm. I was originally turned off to the Stormcloaks when I saw that on the forums.

Now that I see otherwise, I can bring myself to side with them with a character. Besides, I couldn't see a manly man like Ulfric Stormcloak being a willing pawn in the games of High Elves. Why can't you marry him in this game? That would be fun.

You: Ulfric, bring me my snow bear slippers.
Ulfric: But...but...babe, that's what we have these foolish outsider housemaids for!
You: DO IT NOW!
Ulfric: Fine...
You: And while your downstairs, tell your generals to prepare for war.
Ulfric: Again?
You: Yes, again. I want to be Empress!
Ulfric: *sighs*, yes dear...

[FrostyInferno016]

You should have him make you a sandwich