How could the Aldmeri Dominion defeat the Empire?

[iamdanthemanstan]

They talk about the Great War as if even though the Aldmeri suffered a final defeat that if the war had continued the Empire would have lost. But the Empire represents a much larger area and population than the Aldmeri. On top of that while the Aldmeri may have more magic users it's not like the Empire has none and with the Redguards and Nords they had the best warriors. When Tiber Septim conquered everything he had several advantages the Aldmeri don't have. First the voice which alone could have made him easily the most powerful fighter of his day. Second, he wasn't fighting one Empire but a number of smaller states. Finally he had a giant almost invincible golem the Numidium. So how can the Aldmeir do so well without those advantages?

Also a related question the Aldmeri reject the idea of Tiber Septim as a good as nonsense, making the reasonable point that just because he was a great person doesn't mean he could become anything like a daedra or aedra even the hero of Cyrodiil didn't become that powerful when taking over for a daedra prince. But Talos shows a number of signs of being divine in the other games. He shrines provide blessings just like the other gods and daedra, and he appears to the Nerevarine something pretty beyond the power of a mortal man.

[JoeyDestructo]

from what I can tell the Aldmeri really didnt beat the empire that badly, it seems that the only reason they were able to take the war as far as they did, was because they were able to stretch and break the empires lines, granted the empire were completely unprepared for an attack from Elsweyr ....at least until they are wiped out at the battle of the Red Ring.

-Morrowind was FUBAR
-Black Marsh and Elsweyr seceded
-Hammerfell was in civil war

[dtmwerks]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

good read, should explain a lot of it

tl;dr I think is that their whole imperial army was needed to regain their capital, and by the end, despite their victory, everyone was exhausted and no one had a full healthy legion. Although they just killed all the Thalmor there, I guess they did the treaty cause the Thalmor could've reinforced it with fresh troops eventually?

[iamdanthemanstan]

That book actually does explain a lot. Thanks.

[dtmwerks]

Glad to help!

[Nightingale]

The Empire sort of panicked.

They were completely drained, and decided to just cut their losses and accept the Aldmeri's conditions.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Altmer did suffer a final defeat at the Battle of the Red Ring, and later in Hammerfell, but, the other side of things is that the Empire had to amass almost its ENTIRE military force to retake the Imperial City at the Red Ring (some 'invalids' remained in Hammerfell, against orders).

The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.

The Empire itself could not continue to fight, because it had lost its strength in numbers, one of the only things it had over the Thalmor previously. So might argue that the Empire should have kept fighting, and that if Hammerfell could push the Thalmor out without the Empire, then surely with the Empire they could have won, they may be right, but from my research, I don't think that's likely. The Thalmor were caught off guard in Hammerfell.

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174.

[Talamare]

The emperor was too cowardly

If they had pushed on, they would have won!

Hammerfell alone was able to beat them back after the war ended

[OblivionDuruza]

We cannot know this for sure though, and I would not be so quick to jump to that conclusion. The Thalmor got what they wanted from the White-Gold Concordat, they had achieved their aims. The Empire was crippled, it had lost most of its Legions, and even if it had stood by the Redguards, it would have lost one of its main advantages over the Thalmor. Sure it would have prevented the bitterness with Hammerfell and Skyrim, but if this was the case, the Thalmor would not have been doing their job.

Should the Empire have capitulated? No. Should they have fought on? Probably yes, if only to upset the Thalmor plan. Would they have succeed? Hard to say, but probably not.

Edit: haha, 'shoudl' who says that, stupid fingers

[Lord Elvewyn]

I don't think the Emperor can be called a coward. He led the Empire to 'victory' or at least a negotiated peace rather than surrendering. The Thalmor had better intel, mobility and magery. The Empire had numbers and the expectation of victory but that's all. Add in the civil unrest in the provinces, the loss of the Emperor after Oblivion and the general civil disorder, the Empire was in a vulnerable state. It needs to hold what it has and regather its strength.

[dtmwerks]

The empire should just employ the dragonborn. Problem solved. If only we played more of a role in canon! We could be the snow prince of the imperials as he was for the Falmer! Hopefully we won't die to a child.

After all, many of us have decimated legions of armies single handedly if you play for either the stormcloaks or the imperials. Worked for various daedric princes. Cleared dozens of fortresses and holds and dispatched thousands of foes. Not to mention slaying dozens or even hundreds of dragons, and using their souls to become more powerful! We could probably march on Summerset Isle itself!!

[OblivionDuruza]

Titus II was a hero in my eyes. He abandoned the Imperial City yes, despite the advice of his generals. He had the guts to take a risk, and it payed off for him in the end. He had the brains to bring together his forces from across the Empire, and to use them to flank the Thalmor and catch them by surprise, off guard. Then he himself waded into battle, possibly wielding Goldbrand (which Boethiah would not have allowed come to him if he were unworthy), to fight alongside the men who he was risking in this daring effort.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Basically the empire's army wasn't as strong as it was in say Oblivion or Morrowind, it lost most of it's provinces before the war happened, and lost its elite fighting force/spies the Blades (although they were there, but weaker, plus after the war were persecuted).

Not to mention that the Thalmor launched a surprise attack and caught the empire off guard, still the empire managed to beat them back and they eventually drove them out of cyrodiil. Plus it helps that they have Valenwood on their side which is a large nation aswell, with a large population i assume.

[metaphysician]

Don't forget that the Thalmor take the long view, and demonstrated an extreme capacity for espionage and manipulation. Sure, if it were just a matter of provinces and numbers, they'd have no chance. However, they knocked a whole bunch of provinces off the Empire's side before the war even broke out, through skullduggery. I suspect the only reason they actually *did* declare war at the point they did was to set up for a peace treaty that banned Talos worship, so they could drive further wedges between the remaining Imperial provinces. Once all the provinces have gone their own ways? The Aldmeri Dominion wins, because they can beat every single individual province.

[twmcnellie]

Also, magic. Lots and lots of magic.

[Gurney]

I'm pretty sure the Sload or the Argonians could come up with some nice germ warfare if they were motivated in the right way.

[Will Zurmacht]

The primary reason was surprise, as has been mentioned. The Empire didn't expect an imminent attack (plus nobody expected one to come through the Ardennes Elsewyr). And the Dominion didn't really offer terms; the gambit with the cart full of heads was basically a declaration of war, considering Aldmeri forces were already massed just on the other side of the border with Cyrodiil. Imperial forces were scattered throughout the provinces as usual, which the Thalmor were clearly aware of.

Not to speak ill of the dead, but I think a large part of the blame for imperial unpreparedness has to be put on the Blades' counter-intelligence failures.

[metaphysician]

Being fair to the Blades, they kind of were suffering in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. A lot of Blades died in the process, but more importantly, they've been run ragged for decades trying to keep the Empire from disintegrating. By this point, they just didn't have the resources left to stop a major, organized, cunning power deliberately giving the Empire a kick down the stairs.

[Will Zurmacht]

Whatever excuses and apologies we try to make for them, the Blades (of which there were at least a hundred in Summerset and Valenwood at the time) failed in the most important task set for any spying organization: keeping their government abreast of major threats to the realm. If the dumping of the heads of the entire Blades spy network operating in southwest Tamriel was truly a surprise to the Empire, along with being caught completely unawares that two large armies were about to invade across the southern border, then that represents a tremendous failure of the Blades' system.

Whatever happened with the Blades 200 years ago is irrelevant to why they were so inept recently. We need to see some heads roll in this organization! Oh wait.

[Rynkar]

Too soon man, too soon.