Akatosh & Sheogorath in Skyrim

[Anonymous98223]

Im not sure if this has already been discussued but i didnt see it, so does anyone know what sheogorath is like in Skyrim seeing how the Player in Oblivion became him?? And does it mention Akatosh or how him and Alduin or the same or diffrent in Skyrim and of there the same why hes destroying the owrld after saving it??

[OblivionDuruza]

Sheogorath

Spoiler:

is in Skyrim. So there's some explaining to do on that account by Bethesda, although I'm sceptical as to whether it will actually happen. I have my theories though, but I haven't actually met Sheo in-game so they may change as a result.

[Sloady]

Sheogorath is a Daedric Prince, and therefore can change his or her appearance at will. Therefore, so long as the Champion of Cyrrodil fully took on the powers of Sheogorath, there is no canon clash.

[Argonanza]

I've met Sheogorath in-game, and can confirm that

Spoiler:

he looks very much the same as the old Sheogorath, except with white eyes. And he himself confirms being the former Champion of Cyrodiil: "...Except that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon god, and that's hardly sporting... You know, I was there for the whole sordid affair. Marvelous time! Butterflies, blood, a fox, a severd head... Oh and the cheese! To die for."
He also says that Madgod is a family title, "passed down from me to me."

[Wolfie]

Akatosh

Spoiler:

Aduin says he was made by Akatosh, as where all other dragons, so no they are NOT the same

[The Silent Striker]

hang on, why doesn't the champion of cyrodill just come down and destroy the thalmor? I mean, he probably supports the empire, the champion of cyrodill is evidence of that, and is probaby insanely powerful because he is a God.

[Wolfie]

he is a God he probely dont care anymore, he is mad now to

[Sloady]

hang on, why doesn't the champion of cyrodill just come down and destroy the thalmor? I mean, he probably supports the empire, the champion of cyrodill is evidence of that, and is probaby insanely powerful because he is a God.

He's a Daedric Prince. It's quite difficult for Daedric Princes to appear in Mundus.

[Anonymous98223]

Well i for one dislike that the champion and sheogorath are the same, it kinda ruins the story in my opinion. Im going to continue to pretend there two diffrent people and maybe he was simpley a friend of Martin and the Champions who happened to be with them.

[Wolfie]

how dose it ruin it for you?

[Anonymous98223]

Just seems stupid to me, i like to think that all of the questlines in oblivion where diffrent people, becasue the if they all happened to the same person then that kinda makes it fell wierd that all of that happened to the same person and how the warrior who defended Cyrodiil from oblivion was also a Arch-mage thief who murders people for a scret organization and then gos mad and becomes a god. I think that bethsasda should make it so we can creat multiple characters on one game. And i like to think that the champion tried to help rebuild the empire instead of abandoning it.

[Wolfie]

Just seems stupid to me, i like to think that all of the questlines in oblivion where diffrent people, becasue the if they all happened to the same person then that kinda makes it fell wierd that all of that happened to the same person and how the warrior who defended Cyrodiil from oblivion was also a Arch-mage thief who murders people for a scret organization and then gos mad and becomes a god. I think that bethsasda should make it so we can creat multiple characters on one game. And i like to think that the champion tried to help rebuild the empire instead of abandoning it.

Thats not how it turned out, they did it just like in morrowind, the exspassions are the same person did it
the guilds are NOT the same person


The hero did NOT do all of the other things only became a God and saved the world.

[Anonymous98223]

oh, well then i still find it stupid to what happened to the Champion, but thats just my opinion.

[Wolfie]

Ah its okay, I find it good, who eles besides the champon could become a God?
plus as you said, you can Rp it

[N'wah Nern]

Thats not how it turned out, they did it just like in morrowind, the exspassions are the same person did it
the guilds are NOT the same person

The hero did NOT do all of the other things only became a God and saved the world.

Where does it say the hero did the expansions? I know it says it somewhere but I'm not sure. The only reason I ask is because my main character from Oblivion would never do Knights of the Nine.

[Wolfie]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Era

In 3E 427, the Morrowind government, already weakened in power over questions of authority, was further threatened by the re-awakening of the ancient curse of the Blight from the giant volcano Red Mountain, or "Dagoth-Ur". This is also the date when the reincarnation of the Chimer war hero Nerevar, the legendary Nerevarine arrived at Vvardenfell under order of the Emperor, being destined to kill Dagoth-Ur and bring peace to Morrowind.
3E 427 — Discord among the Tribunal After the loss of her Divine powers, Almalexia of the Almsivi becomes insane and kills fellow Tribunal god, Sotha Sil. The Nerevarine reforges Nerevar Indoril's blade - Trueflame - and uses it to kill the mortal Almalexia in the Clockwork City.
3E 427 — The Time of the Bloodmoon Prophecy Once every era, the Daedric Prince Hircine performs a ritual hunt on the frozen island of Solstheim. This is foretold by the Bloodmoon Prophecy. The Nerevarine is chosen to play a part in it, and ultimately defeats Hircine at His own game.
3E 432 — The third edition of "A Pocket Guide to The Empire" is published

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hero


I'm unsure if NoTN counts to be honest, I just know the rest do.

[Fist]

I feel that every "Hero" (Main character) in every Elder Scrolls game has a Dragon Break effect on the Elder Scrolls Universe. So that basically any quest that can be done essentially happened..

[OblivionDuruza]

I think it's generally recognised that every quest occurs, particularly the Major Questlines, however, whether they are completed by the same character is not so clear as far as looking at it from a history point of view. The Main Quest and expansions are normally seen as tied to one character, but side factions etc. I'm not sure there is a doctrine on that matter.

[Contagious Cure]

Just seems stupid to me, i like to think that all of the questlines in oblivion where diffrent people, becasue the if they all happened to the same person then that kinda makes it fell wierd that all of that happened to the same person and how the warrior who defended Cyrodiil from oblivion was also a Arch-mage thief who murders people for a scret organization and then gos mad and becomes a god. I think that bethsasda should make it so we can creat multiple characters on one game. And i like to think that the champion tried to help rebuild the empire instead of abandoning it.

Lol you want a mass effect style "carry save game over" kind of Elder Scrolls? We'd end up with one "save everything immortal and infallible" character. Kind of ruins it for me.

[Contagious Cure]

I have a more general question. What exactly is "madness" as its definition relates to a God? I've always though "mad" was a subjective term that changes based on what is deemed normal or sane which of itself changes based on societal attitudes. Or is it simply about being contradictory and paradoxical?

[Nightingale]

I have a more general question. What exactly is "madness" as its definition relates to a God? I've always though "mad" was a subjective term that changes based on what is deemed normal or sane which of itself changes based on societal attitudes. Or is it simply about being contradictory and paradoxical?

He is both Manic and Demented, two sides of "Madness".

As the story goes, he was originally the Daedric Prince of Order, and when he became too powerful, the other Princes turned him into the Prince of Madness, the very thing he hated most.

I don't think the meaning is supposed to be too "deep", but simply the opposite of absolute "order".

[Cuddle_Fish]

There's some speculation about how close Alduin is to Akatosh. There's one book ingame pretty much titled Akatosh and Alduin and it talks about how the ogd Shor had a son Shor. "Shor son of Shor." While I don't see how it is impossible for someone to name their son after them, the author of that book makes the claim that the son of Shor IS Shor, so the son of Akatosh could be Akatosh (but then why is he named differently). Some in game books do say that Alduin is just the Nord word for Akatosh. This was a book primarily on mer though. There is a book written by a Nord who writes down why he knows Akatosh is not Alduin.

I personally just think Alduin is a powerful being. A demi god, but no god. He himself makes the point that he is OF Akatosh. If he had a better reason to give for his right to rule I think he would have given it, that better reason being that he WAS Akatosh or a manifestation of him.

It is easy to see how the different people of Tamerial could confuse the two.

If Alduin was Akatosh I would see his world eating as indiscriminate destruction, so things could begin anew. Similar to the way the Grey March happened actually. Alduin just wanted to be king of the world, he was destroying the world of man, beast, and mer not Nirn. From their mortal perspective this is the end of their world, but not the end of THE world.

I'm still not very well versed in the lore, so please feel free to correct me and direct me to things to read if I'm wrong

[Pilaf The Defiler]

On Sheogorath -

Sheogorath's throne was occupied by another hero by a process known as "mantling." Basically that entails "walking like them until they must walk like you." About halfway through the main quest of Shivering Isles or perhaps a little farther along you start getting all sorts of clues in dialogue that this is going to happen, or may have already happened before with a dude named Arden Sul. Or maybe that's in the future. Or maybe that's a nickname for the COC.

Akatosh - This is the part where it gets really interesting, and as I'm a bit pressed for time and not as knowledgeable about this as others may be, this won't be the full picture but a rough outline.

What we're told about Alduin and Akatosh in this game seemingly flatly contradicts previous lore on the subject, which was admittedly fragmented and incomplete. (He was only briefly mentioned in a few lore books in Morrowind and Oblivion and not in a lot of detail.) According to the pre-Skyrim lore, Alduin was the Nordic equivalent of Cyrodillic Akatosh or Aldmeri Auriel.

In fact, of those three, he's arguably either the oldest or second oldest concept. Akatosh was created by Alessia as a concept to appease both her Elven and Nord supporters. He's a constructed god containing elements of both Auriel and Alduin. He technically shouldn't exist as a separate entity at all.

But..this is where that wonky metaphysical stuff comes into play again. There was an event called the Dragon Break. Don't confuse it with the Warp In The West from Daggerfall. This is a different event.

Scholar-priests of the Alessian Order tamper with the Dragon God of Time.

A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.

Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic.

The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned.

Tamriel slept through the disaster, which 'lasted one thousand and eight years', until the pieces of the tower came to rest on the mortal plane.

^ Apparently, though some thankfully forgotten ritual, the Marakhuti Selectives actually managed to invoke the Tower and to shatter the Dragon, seemingly into different pieces. It's possible that at this moment, the entire history of the world was altered and Akatosh simply always was. They weren't able to erase Auriel as they'd intended, but they unwittingly strengthened the Alduin part of the Dragon.

Later in this document a Khajiiti scholar declares:

You humans are better thieves than even Rajhin! While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers, it was the Mane that watched the ja-Kha'jay, because the moons were the only constant, and you didn't have the sugar to see it. We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it.


Lastly, I'll say that just because he says he's Akatosh' son doesn't mean he really is..or that him being his son means he's not also his father, or that they're not the same person. All three could be true, or none. Remember that main villains of these games have a biased, subjective point of view as well. Even if Alduin is immortal he can lie if it suits him. In Oblivion, Mankar Camoran made some statements that fly in the face of previous lore. He called Lorkhan a Daedra, got some of the Princes and their Realms mixed up, etc.

Or maybe it's not a lie. Maybe he's the "first born" of "Aka-Tosh", which probably means "Dragon God" or "Dragon Dragon" depending on who you ask. (Not in the Dova language mind you, but the old language of the Aedra.) It might sound like a silly translation until you compare it to "King of Kings" or "Man among Men". The term "First Born" might mean the first physical manifestation on Nirn, not necessarily an offspring. He may be "Ald son of Ald" in the sense that he "gave birth to his own father." All of these things are possible, and none are strongly confirmed or flatly denied. That's what's good about this lore.

[Shanparr]

Well, personally, I don't care what anyone else says, including Bethesda. My character from Oblivion did not become the madgod. He never even went to the Shiver Isles or did the Knights of the Nine quests. He did follow the Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild quests, but that's it. After the events of the Oblivion Crisis he worked on rebuilding the Dark Brotherhood in Cyrodiil, using (abusing) his position as the Grey Fox towards those ends. Running his pirates out of Anvil he mostly stayed out of the public eye. He also cured his vampirism out of respect for Martin's sacrifice (it was night when the last battle was fought but inside the temple he was burned by the sun none the less...)

Some time later I imagine Mephala and Boethia conspired to undo him. Boethia I think might have been displeased with him for using Goldbrand as a tool to reach Paradise and never once shedding blood with it (he preferred Ebondy blade). Mephala well... that's just what she does.

So eventually some assassin as good as he was did him in.

Just a note regarding Morrowind: just because the Neravarine was said to follow the expansions in that game does not mean that the Champion of Cyrodiil did the same. In one of the books in Skyrim you can find referring to timeline up to that point at no point is the Champion of Cyrodiil even named or mentioned, much less are they said to have taken part in Knights of the Nine (though the order is said to have been restored).

Plus, the advertising for the Shivering Isles always suggested that you could create an entirely new character to experience it. So I don't think Bethesda has ever had any real intention to state that the Champion of Cyrodiil for certain every did anything other than stop the Oblivion Crisis. That way the fate of their characters is left mostly up to the players themselves. As I detailed above for my own personal canon for him.

[everar]

all of the lore is loosely-coupled to allow multiple interpretations. sheogorath's dialogue in skyrim would indicate that he likely was the champion of cyrodil, but not necessarily. he could have witnessed the event with martin simply because it drew significance and carried powerful energies onto nirn. our opinions on this don't really matter so much, because we can choose to interpret it as we wish. and the beauty of it is, we won't be wrong. it's high fantasy for us to define.

and there are lorebooks in Skyrim, some talking about an Alduin/Akatosh duality (which was a selling point in Bethesda's PR) but you sort of discover that the truth is a bit different. it's pretty neat to have the story not be exactly as advertised. i hate it when you've seen a movie trailer and it ends up being the entire movie synopsis.