Imperial or Stormcloak

[CorneliusFunk]

The only problem with the dilemma, in my eyes, is that it is the case that I somewhat dislike both sides, not that I like both.

I think I follow this, but now it seems that the Empire isn't ecstatic about "being under the Thalmor's thumb" as one poster put it. Thus I wouldn't think that they are in support of their victors.

I see some folks are big on Nordic independence, freedom from Imperial oppressors, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Alessia and her first Empire of the Nedic people, the former slaves of the Ayleids? In which case, the Empire began in fact rather as something Nordic, given the Nedes' ancestry, at least that which is supported by some sources. Regardless some would argue that Altmer oppression is not good for anyone (except the Altmer, or are there a lot of Summerset apologetics around here?) and that the races of men, and perhaps even the beast races and possibly even the Dunmer, need to cooperate.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well the Thalmor are friendly with the two Khajiiti Kingdoms too, so their influence really spans Alinor, Valenwood and what was once Elsweyr. I don't know about all the races needing to unite to stand against the Thalmor, but the Men races certainly.

I'm not sure what you mean by your point about the Nedes though. The Nedes are generally recognised to be the natives of Tamriel, while the Nords invaded and settled from Atmora.

[CorneliusFunk]

Well the Thalmor are friendly with the two Khajiiti Kingdoms too, so their influence really spans Alinor, Valenwood and what was once Elsweyr. I don't know about all the races needing to unite to stand against the Thalmor, but the Men races certainly.

I'm not sure what you mean by your point about the Nedes though. The Nedes are generally recognised to be the natives of Tamriel, while the Nords invaded and settled from Atmora.

What I meant is that some sources posit that the Nedes were a race of proto-men of sorts, and that it's possible the first Empire was in fact largely Nordic in its bloodlines. Then like I said about conflicting sources as you pointed out, it's disputed what the definition of Nedic peoples actually is, so it could well be a moot point. Regardless I would say that neither Empire nor Stormcloaks want suppression of Talos worship or occupation by what are effectively fascist Altmer secret police forces.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well Michael Kirkbride does confirm the Nedes are not Nords, but that is of little significance:

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):
And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes =!= Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

On the suppression of Talos, the Nords may not want to suppress their own god, but they had no qualms trying to reject the gods of Mer. Why should Talos receive the mantle of a god when Alessia, Morihaus and Pelinal Whitestrake do not?

But the Stormcloaks wouldn't care. They were not Nordic heroes, and the Stormcloaks are proving to be fairly Nord orientated, which is reasonable, as freeing Skyrim is their primary objective, but still, I would question whether they are looking after anyone but their fellow Nords' own interests.

[unokitsune]

Well Michael Kirkbride does confirm the Nedes are not Nords, but that is of little significance:

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):
And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes =!= Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

On the suppression of Talos, the Nords may not want to suppress their own god, but they had no qualms trying to reject the gods of Mer. Why should Talos receive the mantle of a god when Alessia, Morihaus and Pelinal Whitestrake do not?

But the Stormcloaks wouldn't care. They were not Nordic heroes, and the Stormcloaks are proving to be fairly Nord orientated, which is reasonable, as freeing Skyrim is their primary objective, but still, I would question whether they are looking after anyone but their fellow Nords' own interests.

Alessia and Pelina were humans.

[OblivionDuruza]

They all were, but they were Nedes (well Pelinial was an Atmoran), not Nords. Tiber was a Nord. Equally human, but a Nord. He did no greater thing than the other three. In fact, he was very similar to Pelinal in the fact they were both Shezzarines. Morihaus used Thu'um too, doesn't make him more than a minor god.

[Gepard]

They all were, but they were Nedes (well Pelinial was an Atmoran), not Nords. Tiber was a Nord. Equally human, but a Nord. He did no greater thing than the other three. In fact, he was very similar to Pelinal in the fact they were both Shezzarines. Morihaus used Thu'um too, doesn't make him more than a minor god.

Well, Talos did conquer all of Tamriel, so I guess you could say he did a bit more than the other two. Not that I actually agree with his position as a god either, but I guess I can see where it comes from. Didn't most of the earlier empires fashion their founders as sort of, god-heroes? I guess Talos' successors just took it a step farther.

[OblivionDuruza]

Tiber forged an Empire, yes, with the help of the Underking, but so did the others. The First Empire of Men in fact.

[Gepard]

And Reman did with the Second Empire, correct? I remember before the game came out and people were still speculating, some were under the impression that maybe Talos worship had been banned because the current emperors no longer had any connection to him. I'm interested to see if anything like that ever pans out, as it seems many of the Imperials are still in favor of the worship of Talos, perhaps because it represents resistance to the Thalmor. But as you've pointed out, worship of Talos, outside of it being established tradition, of course, is really no more logical than worshiping Reman or Alessia (though she is considered a saint, I believe).

On a slightly related note, is the current empire considered the fourth empire, or do you think the Medes are trying to establish themselves as a different line ruling the third?

[Iaius Amaius Heron]

I haven't gotten far enough in any of my games yet, but each one I planned on going Stormcloak.

As a diehard $#!% THE EMPIRE!! guy ever since my early Morrowind days after seeing how they treat innocent wood elves, which was greatly strengthened after the very beginning of Skyrim after ("Wait, captain, this person's not supposed to be exec-" "KILL 'EM ANYWAY! MURDER! DESTROY! YEEEEEE-HAAAAWWW!!"), I'm gonna do everything I can to screw over those Imperial dogs.

I cheered when I heard that some guys calling themselves the Aldmeri Dominion whupped them, until a wandering inquisitor tried to murder me for daring to say I can worship whoever I wish.

Oh, you know how those high elves pride themselves for being so darned smart and wise? Well anyone who has read history knows that trying to stomp on a peoples' religious beliefs is the quickest way to ensure violent rebellion, even after you've conquered them. I guess "high" must be referring to Summerset Grass or whatever they smoke over there.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Medes took power 7 years after Chancellor Ocato was assassinated, allegedly by the Thalmor. I'd say that while the Medes are a different Empire, their rule is probably not too different, and the Legion is probably not too dissimilar to the Septims, but you never know.

On a related matter, I did some reading up on the Jarls of both sides of the conflict.

I have found that I basically prefer every Imperial Jarl to the Stormcloak ones, for their own good qualities.

I dislike the two Stormcloak Jarls of Dawnstar and Winterhold, Jarls Skald the Elder and Korir; and the Imperial Jarls Siddgeir of Falkreath and Marven Black-Briar of Riften. The overall reasons that I dislike these people are because they are either corrupt, ignorant, cowardly, or arrogant, or a combination of both.

I admire greatly Jarl Balgruuf of Winterhold, Jarl Brunwulf Free-Winter of Windhelm, Jarl Kraldar of Winterhold and Jarl Brina Merilius of Dawnstar. These all happen to be Imperial Jarls, but more importantly, they are open, no-nonsense and they command the respect of their people by earning it.

Just some personal opinions, and maybe some food for thought.

[unokitsune]

Tiber forged an Empire, yes, with the help of the Underking, but so did the others. The First Empire of Men in fact.

Not to mention if you read biography of Barenziah you learned that Tiber septim cheated on his wife and had sexy time with his maids/maidens and that included sexy time with Barenziah herself and forced abortion on her when she was briefly pregnant with his child by having his court mage knock her out then aborting her baby without her consent.

That doesn't seem very "Divine" to me.

[IABlindKidI]

The Civil War is probably the most interesting part of the game for the reason that it wouldn't feel out of place in 1920's China or modern day Libya/Liberia.

On one side you have the Imperials: Usually decent leaders who have deteriorated into brutal acts of violence as they feel their grip on power slipping away. These guys are who I sided with on my first character and their quests usually involve defending things.

The you have the stormcloaks: A band of rebels, led by a strong but manipulative leader. I think his victory could easily devolve into a cult of personality and tyrrannical dictatorship. However, the Stormcloak quests are a lot more fun and usually involve more fast-paced attacking.

Both sides have their merits, but overall I found Stormcloak to be a bit more fun. Viva La Revolucion!!

[Will Zurmacht]

On one side you have the Imperials: Usually decent leaders who have deteriorated into brutal acts of violence as they feel their grip on power slipping away.

Any examples?

Tiber septim cheated on his wife and had sexy time with his maids/maidens and that included sexy time with Barenziah herself and forced abortion on her when she was briefly pregnant with his child by having his court mage knock her out then aborting her baby without her consent.

That doesn't seem very "Divine" to me.

Sounds just like something Jupiter (or Hercules) would do, which seems appropriate given the Greco-Roman flavor of the Empire.

[CorneliusFunk]

Well Michael Kirkbride does confirm the Nedes are not Nords, but that is of little significance:

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):
And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes =!= Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

On the suppression of Talos, the Nords may not want to suppress their own god, but they had no qualms trying to reject the gods of Mer. Why should Talos receive the mantle of a god when Alessia, Morihaus and Pelinal Whitestrake do not?

But the Stormcloaks wouldn't care. They were not Nordic heroes, and the Stormcloaks are proving to be fairly Nord orientated, which is reasonable, as freeing Skyrim is their primary objective, but still, I would question whether they are looking after anyone but their fellow Nords' own interests.

Alessia and Pelina were humans.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realise the "Nedic peoples" thing was so clear-cut.

I haven't gotten far enough in any of my games yet, but each one I planned on going Stormcloak.

As a diehard $#!% THE EMPIRE!! guy ever since my early Morrowind days after seeing how they treat innocent wood elves, which was greatly strengthened after the very beginning of Skyrim after ("Wait, captain, this person's not supposed to be exec-" "KILL 'EM ANYWAY! MURDER! DESTROY! YEEEEEE-HAAAAWWW!!"), I'm gonna do everything I can to screw over those Imperial dogs.

I cheered when I heard that some guys calling themselves the Aldmeri Dominion whupped them, until a wandering inquisitor tried to murder me for daring to say I can worship whoever I wish.

Oh, you know how those high elves pride themselves for being so darned smart and wise? Well anyone who has read history knows that trying to stomp on a peoples' religious beliefs is the quickest way to ensure violent rebellion, even after you've conquered them. I guess "high" must be referring to Summerset Grass or whatever they smoke over there.

Haha. I've always had a problem with the Altmer. Sure, elves have their quirks - Dunmer can be hostile towards anyone and Bosmer are, well, sometimes just pretty strange - but the Altmer are the real bad eggs (well, maybe not genetically). I mean, sure, they have a long-standing affinity with magicka and I respect the Psijic Order for all their mysterious powers, but if the Altmer think so lowly of the rest of Tamriel and are always wailing about Magnus this and Lorkhan that they should just ship off to another realm like the Dwemer seemed to have done.

[zpr9610]

Imperials! Stormcloaks are racist

[trueguitarist95]

Imperials! Stormcloaks are racist

True that, also Ulfiric Stormcloak is a huge dick. The Imperials motif seems much more reasonable.

[Huntershound]

Working out a few different characters and some scream the Rebellion and the others I just can't find a logical reason to do Imperial. I'll have to work out a specific character if I want to do the Imperial side. Me personaly? Freedom in Skyrim!

[Ryuhza]

Imperial.

The only downside is the Aldmeri Dominion (which seems to be universally hated XD) is always on their ass. However, leaving the Empire rather than aiding it just gives more power to the Dominion. Stormcloaks are kinda dumb like that.

[Berzerker]

Imperial.

The only downside is the Aldmeri Dominion (which seems to be universally hated XD) is always on their ass. However, leaving the Empire rather than aiding it just gives more power to the Dominion. Stormcloaks are kinda dumb like that.

What all my characters think. *and my Elven ones think the Dominion are just as retarded *

[Alchemist]

*Spoilers - College of Winterhold*

My elven characters want to impress the Dominion to no end. Although I personally can see the bigger picture that the Dominion wants to draw out the war as long as possible with no clear victors, I don't believe any character who's lived in Skyrim their whole life could. The way they would see it is, if the Stormcloaks win, the government will finally have the guts to defy the Thalmor. If the Imperial Army wins, the Thalmor just have a more powerful asset.

And about Ancano, it's very much clear he became a renegade member of the Dominion. The exact qualities that made him eligible to supervise the College of Winterhold's operations in the first place - intimidation skill, unscrupulous nature, ambition for the good of himself and the dominion over the good of magic would ultimate be his downfall when he more or less betrayed what a 'good' mage should be to further his own power. In short, you can't pin his wrongdoing on the Aldmeri Dominion, he was more or less muscle for them who decided to pursue his own interests. It's not like he was transferring the Eye of Magnus' power to the Thalmor. Finally, when a Thalmor assassin is sent to kill you and retrieve the staff, he makes it very clear that he's just muscle for Ancano, confirmation that neither had Thalmor approval.

[Demosthenes01101]

Well, Ralof pretty much shows a proof against the Stormcloaks being 'racist'.

Spoiler:

He says, direct quote, "Any can join the fight to free Skyrim."

I think the things against the Empire can be seen by following Ralof and seeing the torture chamber with various people. (Both Mages, and Stormcloaks)

Vice versa - the same can probably be said if you follow the Imperial. (I followed the Stormcloaks)

It seems that the Nords in Skyrim are basically fighting an oppression that even the Septims were not capable of.

Spoiler:

When you go to Riverwood, Ralof's sister says that the Imperial regime actually banned the worship of Talos. Yes. THE Talos. So, either the Imperial Regime is being directly manipulated by the Thalmor court, or the Imperial regime is going to make a cult-of-personality out of its Emperors.

With the Imperials, they doubtlessly see themselves as the defenders of order and peace. Even Stormcloaks and Stormcloak sympathizers say that the Empire 'was' good for Skyrim once upon a time. Now, however, it isn't The Empire might be divided into, "The Empire is the only way to unite all of Tamriel!" or "We must all follow a single regime, as we are all Tamrielic."

Plus with Ulfric "murdering" the High King (Stormcloaks disagree, they said he killed him due to ancient traditional challenge of right. The High King lost, thus he didn't deserve to be High King.)

So kinda like the Dunmer-traditions of challenging an opponent to an honorable duel. (Mostly Redoran practices this, but Hlaalu and Telvanni partake in it as well.)

Both sides have a justification, but Stormcloaks are for the more noble and Sir William (Scottish Knight who fought against the British) type, as well as revolutionary type. The Nords are obviously oppressed, and several reactionary and revolutionary qualities will arise.

Such as Racism (which the Stormcloaks will maintain most likely and not abuse it), the poor masses revolting, religious aid, and all uniting for a free Skyrim.

Therefore, the reactionary elements of the Imperials will arise due to the fact that Skyrim MUST remain apart of the Empire. Oppression, Repression, killing innocents, and so on.

I'm sure this has been said, but I'll say it again: The Stormcloaks are short-sighted, hot-headed fools. "Cry, cry, I can't worship my dragon/septim god that FOUNDED the empire! wah wah." Maybe instead of weakening the ONLY force keeping the Aldmeri Dominion from coming down on your HEADS, you should support the empire founded by your beloved Talos, strengthen it, until it can fight back against the aldmeri dominion, and shake off the white-gold concordat. Imperial side, definitely. Stormcloaks are seriously just silly [&@%!]. Plus, the Imperials have none other than SPACE JOHN MCCAIN (A.K.A. Colonel Tigh from BSG) voicing their general. So, auto win there.

[Unionhack]

Stormcloaks.

...

What? I like the uniforms. Sue me.

[Ryuhza]

Stormcloaks.

...

What? I like the uniforms. Sue me.

You'll hear from my LAWYER! I assure you!

[Oasis23]

On this thread I've seen at least twice people say their fine with Dunmer prejudice by Stormcloaks because they're Argonians. ARGONIANS CAN"T EVEN LIVE IN WINDHELM!!!!
But anyway, I sided with the Stormcloaks.