A Little disappointed in gameplay

[JVElEven]

On the difficulty: Mate, you have grown compacent with the leveled system of Oblivion. This system is different. You can't just go and attack everything. Even on novice you get your puny behind kicked by a giant, even right after you slew a dragon. Which is because dragons are leveled, and Giants definitely aren't.

The menus are a taste problem. You don't like them, I do. I find it nice that I need less clicking.

Speed: I find it a nice pace. Maybe you are just too impatient?

Edit: Oh, and before you say I missed the point about difficulty: I didn't. I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree. On novice you can clear out a low level draugr dungeon in 10 seconds flat, while you should probably stay away from giants until you're level 15 or something. Perhaps even higher. I'm starting at novice, and I find it rather refreshing that I don't kill everything in one hit, but I take almost no damage from wolves despite wandering around without armor. The notion you put forth that the difficulty novice is equal to 3/4 of the way to the right in Oblivion is absurd, however. I can kill a draugr in two seconds with the starting flame spell. It took half a minute to do the same to a Vilverin zombie (standard zombie, location named for reference) with the weakest fire spell in oblivion AND with weapons. Rats took two hits on standard in Oblivion, a skeever goes down like a snap.

[stormbringer]

Here is one of the things as to WHY the difficulty curve detracts from gameplay. What is this series based upon? FREE ROAMING EXPLORATION. People have stated that there are places you should not go until higher levels. Well, this statement basically contradicts the whole premise of having an open-world system. There are times when I just want to go wonder in the wild and discover places so later on in the game I can just fast travel to the spot or somewhere close. I did this on Morrowind, Oblivion, and all their expansions, and yes Morrowind was a little different because of the silt-striders but you get the idea. I played through Oblivion roughly 20 times doing ALL the quests, including the Daedric, guild, and misc. ones. You know why? I wanted to play as all the races and different playstyles. In Skyrim I probably will play through once, MAYBE twice just to see if knowing the story/mechanics helps.

As for the comparison with rats and Skeevers. With the slider all the way down in Oblivion pretty much ANY enemy would die in no more than 3 swipes of a basic low level sword. On novice in Skyrim, a decent sword requires 3-4 swipes for a basic low-level creature. Let's compare Trolls this way. In Oblivion with the slider all the way down a troll would take 1-2 swipes with a sword, but in Skyrim a troll takes a LOT of swipes and can kill you in 2-3 hits. This is where the problem lies.

[Nevastar]

That's good that it's too hard for casual gamers. It's not supposed to be a casual game. If casual gamers find it too hard, then that's good in my opinion. Casual gamers should stick with Angry Birds and CoD.

[JVElEven]

But the leveled system was basically the single most criticized thing of Oblivion in the first place. Now they chose the middle way between the leveled and unleveled system, and still they get complains!

They listened to all those of us who thought the leveled system made it too easy, and now those who only just got by on that system is angry. THere's always going to be someone who's deterred by that, but really we can't get mad at Bethesda for changing something they were criticized for. Heck, that's more than EA does. And Activision. Etc.

Oh, and Nevastar, that doesn't seem to fit...

You basically think the game should be only for people who are hardcore? I mean, I love the series, but I play the games in my spare time, which I guess makes me a casual gamer as well. Does that mean I shouldn't play it as well? It's not about whether you're casual or not. It's whether you only just got along on Oblivion's severely criticized level-system, or was one of the complainers.

[Nevastar]

Oh, and Nevastar, that doesn't seem to fit...

You basically think the game should be only for people who are hardcore? I mean, I love the series, but I play the games in my spare time, which I guess makes me a casual gamer as well. Does that mean I shouldn't play it as well? It's not about whether you're casual or not. It's whether you only just got along on Oblivion's severely criticized level-system, or was one of the complainers.

Pretty much. Or that's what I'd like. The first few Elder Scrolls games were incredibly hard, but incredibly awesome. They had you planning and making strategies, you'd get killed all the time, but that was fun. I know that kind of gaming isn't for everyone, but that doesn't mean that it should be changed. I understand that Oblivion and Skyrim are able to be played casually, but the games shouldn't change too much to accomodate that. The series has already changed a lot to accomodate casual gamers, but now it's annoying when they start complaining about the difficulty.

[Wolfie]

I agree with the OP, for causal fans novice is to hard, yes, yes, I know that most of you like how hard it is, but this is not about us, its about his family who find it to hard, I’d agree, on novice I’ve been killed by creatures who IMO, should not be that tough.
More so for causal gamers

[Avron the S'wit]

First of all, you guys (and gals) are not allowed to comment on whether or not someone lets people in their own family play the game. Keep your opinions to yourselves.

Now, moderating aside!

I actually agree with stormbringer on the difficulty and see what he is saying. Skyrim harks back to the Morrowind days, where you spent a majority of your beginning playtime getting your butt handed to you, making very difficult decisions, and fleeing from enemies who could destroy you fairly quickly. And even though I am a player who thrives on a challenge, even I have had some frustration with getting my character, who does fairly well in fights, destroyed by a frost troll in two hits. It's frustrating, and, to be honest, the only reason I like the frustration is because I remember Morrowind and how amazing that game was to me, and I remember Oblivion and how, even though certain aspects were challenging, I thought the game was just a game with no specifically hard challenges in terms of battle. If you haven't loved, cried, and shed blood over Morrowind, and especially for people who got into the TES franchise following Oblivion (which, let's face it, was an amazing game), Skyrim is going to present a unique challenge. It calls for a more careful rationing of perks, skills, and supplies to traverse through the wilderness.

But if Morrowind taught me anything, it's that when the schoolyard bully beats you up, you give him your lunch money and wait for the day you'll finally be pals. And it'll happen.

...eventually.

[Nevastar]

First of all, you guys (and gals) are not allowed to comment on whether or not someone lets people in their own family play the game. Keep your opinions to yourselves.

Now, moderating aside!

I actually agree with stormbringer on the difficulty and see what he is saying. Skyrim harks back to the Morrowind days, where you spent a majority of your beginning playtime getting your butt handed to you, making very difficult decisions, and fleeing from enemies who could destroy you fairly quickly. And even though I am a player who thrives on a challenge, even I have had some frustration with getting my character, who does fairly well in fights, destroyed by a frost troll in two hits. It's frustrating, and, to be honest, the only reason I like the frustration is because I remember Morrowind and how amazing that game was to me, and I remember Oblivion and how, even though certain aspects were challenging, I thought the game was just a game with no specifically hard challenges in terms of battle. If you haven't loved, cried, and shed blood over Morrowind, and especially for people who got into the TES franchise following Oblivion (which, let's face it, was an amazing game), Skyrim is going to present a unique challenge. It calls for a more careful rationing of perks, skills, and supplies to traverse through the wilderness.

But if Morrowind taught me anything, it's that when the schoolyard bully beats you up, you give him your lunch money and wait for the day you'll finally be pals. And it'll happen.

...eventually.

But if you think back on Morrowind and Oblivion, which means more to you? The one you loved, cried, and shed blood over? Or the one you practically glided through?
You must see what I'm saying, though. Gamers who entered the ES series with Oblivion and are disappointed that Skyrim isn't easy and offers a challenge probably shouldn't be expecting the game to be tailored for them. Most gamers who played Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind welcome the challenge that Oblivion missed out on. I'm not saying either gamer has more rights than the other, but it is kinda silly when people who only played Oblivion complain that Skyrim is too hard, because that's an attribute that the series has always carried (besides Oblivion).
Stormbringer's family finds the game too hard, and I understand that. But should the games, after all these years, change to accommodate casual gamers who find the games too hard? For more profit, yes. But for the fans of the series, no.

At least that's how I see it. :)

[Chaos the N'wah]

These questions seem more like personal preferences over actual gameplay problems.

For example,
I love the sprinting system, it allows you to actually outrun/dodge your enemy without having to increase your speed to crazy levels.
this is the first TES game that I actually use 3rd person; mostly because the animations aren't junk and you have a wider view.
I love the menu, it's quick and easy to access and the favorite system adds an extra layer of strategy to combat when you can change tactic mid fight.
Difficulty, it is harder, I am one who had no problem beating Morrowind or Oblivion on the hardest settings (Major Min-max-er), but it's not impossible, you can't just run wildly into a Giant camp and expect to be able to take a few hits. It does get easier later on, when you start getting better perks

Edited because I DO have an opinion and Avron is a ninja: we have far too many people here who think they're entitled to say what they want, but get [&@%!] when people do the same. Leave that at the door, that includes BOTH sides

[JVElEven]

Well, I don't think they should change it. I played Oblivion for almost a year before I managed to beat the Main Quest.

On easiest. And I hated it.

I may play on novice now, but I'll raise it when I feel safe in the environment.



That's really how you, Stormbringer, should get over your difficulty complex. Train yourself. One can easily train and still be casual.

In any way, I agree with Nevastar that the game shouldn't be changed to make it more newbie friendly, but stay the large, free-form way it is. And freeform doesn't mean you should just skip through everythin like it's a proverbial meadow. But on the other hand it shouldn't be so hard only the WoW extremists can play it.

It's a balance act, and I, personally, think that Bethesda has scored this time.

I can see what Nevastar is getting at, but seing I wasn't around to enjoy Arena or Daggerfall, I can't compare. All I can compare is with Oblivion, and in that regard, it's perfect that the leveled system is gone, and that the difficulty settings are way more comprehensive than just an untiered slider. What you, Nevastar, should remember, is this: Bethesda has made the game for everyone. Those who are "casual", as you put it (a term I don't like, but will go with for sake of easiness), play on lower difficulty, and maybe they will gradually be able to join the ranks of those who has the burning love for the series. There's aslo those who already has that RPG skill, and just need to get the controls right. They can set it to expert immeidately.

And then ther's the middle way, those who love it, but don't feel they are skilled enough to play it the tough way. Should they really not be "allowed" - for lack of a better word - to play, Nevastar? If they love the game, they should be allowed to play, and the difficulty settings are there for a reason: To allow the lesser skilled of us to play it. I will crank it up soon, when I feel secure in the controls. I place myself in that middle group, those who love the game, but just doesn't consider themselves skilled enough to be at level with the real RPG masters.

The difficulty slider makes The Elder Scrolls playable for all, but it is okay that they have streamlined/limited it a bit, because they'd like to train us, and a narrower choice helps that.


Chaos: Exactly. It's mostly taste. And yet I still wring out that giant post fro above. Which is because I think they both view things from the extreme outer perimeter, opposite of each other, instead of seeing that Bethesda has tried the very difficult middle way, trying to make it so that everyone can find the most enjoyment, regardless of ability.

[Nevastar]

And then ther's the middle way, those who love it, but don't feel they are skilled enough to play it the tough way. Should they really not be "allowed" - for lack of a better word - to play, Nevastar?

I think that those who love it, but don't wan't to play it in a challenging way can play on the lowest difficulty if they like. That's why the difficulty options are there. But that's still too hard for them, then they should do what you said; Train. Get better. Like you said, some people are naturals at RPGs and some aren't. But that doesn't mean that those who aren't should complain or anything. They should get better at it. If that's too hard for them to do, or they can't get any better, then as I said earlier, maybe they should stick with other games instead of wanting the game to change for them. Elder Scrolls games are great, but they're not for everyone.
Great post btw, I think you practically cleaned up.

[dubq]

3. The menus. UGH. Not a fan of the system. Supposed to be more streamlined, yet I find it a bit more tedious to do what I need it to do.

Good God I couldn't agree more. Aside from looking quasi-futuristic, making them look VERY out of place, they're ugly, don't even fit on my TV, and my game lags anywhere between one to ten seconds every other time I even bring the damn thing up. The whole UI blows. Period.

I disagree 100% on this one. The menus fit, perfectly. Skyrim is "a Nord game". The menus were designed to fit in with the styling of this culture. Lots of hard lines. Lots of glyphs. Look at their armor and weaponry to see the connection. The "futuristic" comment is just purely ridiculous. Futuristic would be the menus for Deus Ex, not Skyrim.

[Frost Mage]

You're right, dubq. Simplistic=Futuristic. Sure it's cleaner than Oblivion's or Morrowind's, but that doesn't mean it's trying to be futuristic. Like you said, it really well with the Nord setting. I also love being able see the blurred landscape in front of me even when I'm in a menu.

[JVElEven]

Nothing wrong with the menus, nay. Works extremely well in context.

And Nevastar: Glad we got that cleared up. I think I misunderstood your first post. And even though I joined by Oblivion time, I welcome the perhaps a teensy bit tougher game.

[stormbringer]

I really don't understand where you guys are getting that I want to game to be easy. Currently there are 5 levels to play the game on. All I said is that the NOVICE setting should be toned down a little bit for the people who like to play casually. No one EVER said that it should play like Mario Kart on the hardest setting. NOVICE level should be a smooth introductory setting for people who may have never even played another Elder Scrolls game, or someone who wants to escape into a fantasy world for a few hours.

I myself LOVE the challenge, but it's not about me. It's about the possibility of FUTURE fans/hardcore gamers of the series. If they turn off the FUTURE gamers to the series by making it near impossible to beat COMMON enemies then they will give up. First impressions are hard to shrug off. I myself have no issues with the SETTING I PLAY ON. and if you want to play at the hardest setting, then so be it. What a LOT of you "hardcore gamers" don't understand is that by turning off players there may NEVER be another game of your precious series due to people not liking the way it was implemented. As for saying a game is not for someone because you feel the game needs to be harder then that is totally WRONG. Again keep the higher settings as they are. They SHOULD be a challenge even to the most accomplished player, but the lowest setting should NOT be filled with creatures/animals that can pretty much kill you instantly.

[dubq]

You're right, dubq. Simplistic=Futuristic. Sure it's cleaner than Oblivion's or Morrowind's, but that doesn't mean it's trying to be futuristic. Like you said, it really well with the Nord setting. I also love being able see the blurred landscape in front of me even when I'm in a menu.

Totally, I love that feature, too. If I had to complain about one thing it would just be that you can't sort by weight, power, etc. Outside of that, I think the presentation is stellar.

I especially love what they've done with the visual representations for magic spells and tomes. The tomes have the classic logos on the covers, but the actual spells are physical manifestations of the magic itself. Very cool.

[xopurrangaox]

If you cant play the game on the easiest difficulty i'm not sure what your doing playing this game, go back to side scrollers or something.

[Frost Mage]

If you cant play the game on the easiest difficulty i'm not sure what your doing playing this game, go back to side scrollers or something.

You're right. I've always thought of making an archer in Oblivion (not anymore ) that goes down to easy when doing sneaky shots. The difficulty slider is there for more than just people that aren't good at the game, but most of the time it is.

[stormbringer]

If you cant play the game on the easiest difficulty i'm not sure what your doing playing this game, go back to side scrollers or something.

WOW, an ignorant statement by someone who didn't (or couldn't) read what was posted. If you can't make constructive suggestions, you should go back to middle school and hang out with the rest of the immature idiots.

[Nevastar]

If you cant play the game on the easiest difficulty i'm not sure what your doing playing this game, go back to side scrollers or something.

WOW, an ignorant statement by someone who didn't (or couldn't) read what was posted. If you can't make constructive suggestions, you should go back to middle school and hang out with the rest of the immature idiots.

Woah. A little harsh, mate.
xopurrangaox could've said that nicer, but have a chill pill.

[Frost Mage]

Calm down Storm. Everyone's opinion is valid, and she WAS on topic.

[enyamerT]

Just to put in my two septims;

1. Skyrim is first and foremost a role-playing game, and the point is to face challenges and grow in power. Assured victory isn't very challenging.

2. Just because the game allows you to go anywhere, it doesn't have to guarantee that it's a good idea to do so at any given time.

This isn't The Sims: Skyrim for crying out loud, it's supposed to have an epic feel to it. Imagine how boring the Lord of the Rings would have been if one really could just walk into Mordor.

[Nevastar]

Just to put in my two septims;

1. Skyrim is first and foremost a role-playing game, and the point is to face challenges and grow in power. Assured victory isn't very challenging.

2. Just because the game allows you to go anywhere, it doesn't have to guarantee that it's a good idea to do so at any given time.

This isn't The Sims: Skyrim for crying out loud, it's supposed to have an epic feel to it. Imagine how boring the Lord of the Rings would have been if one really could just walk into Mordor.

^^
Basically sums up my argument better. People shouldn't expect it to be easy. If you play it expecting it to be like Oblivion, forget it. If you play it expecting it to be like a real RPG in some ways, you'll enjoy it more.

(Lord of the rings would've been like this.)

[Frost Mage]

I have no sympathy for Oblivion players who hate Morrowind and Skyrim for being too "hard", but sometimes LPs are much more fun to watch on an easy difficulty, since it's no fun to watch someone die a million times. I play Skyrim on Adept, and IMO it's just right.

[stormbringer]

I have no sympathy for Oblivion players who hate Morrowind and Skyrim for being too "hard", but sometimes LPs are much more fun to watch on an easy difficulty, since it's no fun to watch someone die a million times. I play Skyrim on Adept, and IMO it's just right.

You make my point for me. YOU like to play it on adept, because it fits YOU. Would you like it if the ONLY setting it had was the hardest difficulty? Probably not. This is the argument I am trying to make. Not for myself, but the other players who WILL be turned off to the series because of the high difficulty (to them) on the lowest setting. The FIRST ES game I played was Morrowind and actually found it to be EASIER than Oblivion, and on Skyrim the difficulty curve from both Morrowind and Oblivion is HUGE. I feel that a player should not struggle or have to "formulate strategies" for simple common enemies. This makes the game too taxing on people looking for a good game to play. As for all you "diehard" fans, you realize that you make up ONLY about 10% OF THE POPULATION that play this game right? So if you were Bethesda and had to look at it from purely a numbers standpoint would you rather lose 10% of the community or 25%+?

Yes, I agree that on NORMAL setting any RPG should present a challenge to players familiar with the genre/series. However, it should in no way FORCE you basically to run away from enemies that should be easy to beat. A challenge to any player is good, but when the lowest setting is full of frustration and gameplay that ENCOURAGES running away then it's an issue. Am I saying that ALL enemies should die just by farting on them? NO, I'm just saying that enemies like the Frost Trolls should not be able to kill a player in 2 swipes on the easiest setting.

As for people saying "get better, or go play something else" REALLY? How are they supposed to get better when basically all they can do is AVOID conflict just to survive?