Thalmor vs Talos Worshippers

[Frost Mage]

I'm torn between the two. I'm all for Mer over man, to a point, but the Talos worshippers aren't really hurting anyone, and the Mer shouldn't be telling the Nords what to believe in, since as far as I know, there wasn't any dispute between the Dunmer in Morrowind and the various other races that inhabited Morrowind. Thoughts? I felt like we could use another "vs" thread .

[zzfallens]

Although I agree with the Empire more than the Stormcloaks, this I cannot stand. The only reason the Empire is allowing the Thalmor to do this is for the long time peace they ruled over with the peace treaty. It is just another pompous "I'm right your wrong" scheme made by the elves, and I actually like them. It just gets annoying when they act extremely superior over everyone else so much that they can't even have their own culture anymore.

[FrostyInferno016]

I'm a big laissez-faire kinda person when it comes to religions: as long as it's not bothering anyone else, why should anyone bother with it? I think the Thalmor are still bitter after thousands of years of men getting the better of them, and then Talos being the epitome of man's dominance over the Elves.

I'm against the Thalmor to begin with, but this prevents me from having any sympathy for them, at all.

[zzfallens]

I think the Thalmor are still bitter after thousands of years of men getting the better of them, and then Talos being the epitome of man's dominance over the Elves.

I think that this is exactly what it is. Why else? The Elves (especially Altmer and Bosmer, not so much the Dunmer) want to regain popularity and status in Tamriel, and to do so one of the things that they will have to get rid of is the man-centered Empire's hero Talos.

[Frost Mage]

By the way, the reason I made this thread was because I just broke into someone's house for the Thalmor, and gave them proof that he worshipped Talos. I'm thinking I might try to deceive them every once in a while. For example, even before I did this quest, I killed a gang of Thalmor Justiciers that were taking a Talos worshipper back to Markarth, just out of frustration with their pushy ways.

[FrostyInferno016]

I kill of those marching parties, along with the ones who track me down in the wild. As a Nord, the call me things like "dog" and "cattle". Do they use the same insults for any of the elves?

[OblivionDuruza]

Since nobody seems to see the motivation behind the banning of Talos worship, I'll try to explain it as I see it. The Elves used to be top dogs, fairly simple. Then the Men came in and disturbed everything, slauthering Mer and taking over control. The Elves are a proud group of peoples, to a fault I will admit, they could not, and cannot stand this rule by Men. It is the greatest affront to them, that a Man, let alone the Man who defiled their Empires, could be king. Removing Talso worship not only removes this affront to everything the Altmer are, but it also discourages other Men getting the idea that they can become Gods.

But to further spin out the discussion, the arguments supporting the banning of Talos from an Imperial standpoint.

Today, the Emperor, and indeed the Empire itself, recognizes that allowing the worship of Talos was a mistake. For by doing so, by allowing the worship of Talos as a Divine, the Empire actually did its people a great disservice: for this only succeeded in weakening the memory of the man Tiber Septim and his many extraordinary (though mortal) deeds; and pushing people away from the Eight Divines, the true gods, who do deserve our love and reverence.

This book might be of use to readers.

[parvatiquinta]

Well, I found this book on the origin of the world (Children's Anuad maybe? not sure), and it turns out that

Spoiler:

Men are descendants of one of the Mer races anyway

.

As for me, I'm sorry but I can't bear this whole Eight Divines concept. They have always been the Nine Divines! And so they should be. The big temple in Solitude with the empty alcove is an eyesore.

[SilentPsycho]

But to further spin out the discussion, the arguments supporting the banning of Talos from an Imperial standpoint.

A heavily biased-towards the Thalmor and boot-licking Imperial standpoint.

[JVElEven]

Well, the Thalmor really didn't do a good job inspiring loyalty in the empire, which, I think, is exactly what they had planned to do.

I believe thay only banned Talos worshipping because it would likely tear the Empire apart, seeing as Skyrim would likely leave after that, and then High Rock would potentially be free to leave as well. And High Rock alone would actually be a force to reckon with, as they have the natural organization that most other factions lack at the moment.

[Lord Elvewyn]

I don't have any problem with the Thalmor rejecting the ninth divine, I just object to their jihadist approach - convert or die. I've run across a few squads and when it's been convenient I've helped them die. Of course I've got a mission in Markath to expose a Talo's worshipper. Have to see what I do. I don't want to lose a trainer but I do want any reward and I am\will be a loyal Imperial so um hmm ...

[JVElEven]

Well, I see the Thalmor as a sign of Tamriel's approaching collapse into petty kingdoms, like before Talos was around. Seems like a neverending cycle they've got going on.

And then someone makes the Amulet show up again. That seems to happen all the time.

[Taters]

It's a bit like Hitler forcing concessions of land from Neville Chamberlain; the Thalmor do it because they can, and the only options are give in, or go to war, and we all know how that turned out IRL.

[Avron the S'wit]

They have always been the Nine Divines!

Actually, no, they weren't! If you remember in Oblivion, especially in the Knights of the Nine storyline, they are also commonly referred to as the "Eight and One." This is a reference to the fact that, in lore, Talos was elevated to godhood upon his death and joined the ranks of the Divines. But I understand what you're saying.

I actually haven't gotten far enough into Skyrim lore-wise to have a good opinion on this, nor do I really side with the Thalmor over the Talos worshippers, or vice versa. But this is a result of a long standing problem the mer, especially the Altmer, have had with men ruling the Empire. Like Duruza said, they're used to being the big cheese and the Empire was faltering in its final years and, whatever happened post-Septims (and here my lore is really failing outside of the books; I haven't read enough in-game just yet!), it only added to the frustration of races in the Empire. Getting the Empire to ban Talos worship is a great execution of power, especially power over men.

[OblivionDuruza]

Avron is spot on, the "Nine" were actually only Eight from their introduction by Saint Alessia in the First Era, until the ascension of Talos in the 3rd Era.

Talos was the greatest hero of men, the embodiment of Shezzar/Lorkhan, who himself was the greatest enemy of the Aldmer. Trinimac and Auri-El, the Aldmer's two greatest heroes, were said to have had central roles in the tyrant Lorkhan's death. Talos is an affront in the eyes of the Altmer, he stands for everything they oppose, and he mocks their greatest gods and heroes.

[Frost Mage]

Talos is an affront in the eyes of the Altmer, he stands for everything they oppose, and he mocks their greatest gods and heroes.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm starting to understand this more.

[Chaos the N'wah]

Well, I found this book on the origin of the world (Children's Anuad maybe? not sure), and it turns out that

Spoiler:

Men are descendants of one of the Mer races anyway

.

You don't really need to spoiler that, we've had many discussions in the Lore section about the origin of life on Nirn.

And Men aren't a descendant of Mer, they're both evolutionary divergences of the same line, the Ehlnofey

[Mithrandir]

I side with the Talos worshippers simply because I just dont agree that the Thalmor can just shoot down people's beliefs like they did. And then again, Ive never really liked the Elves except the Dumner

[OblivionDuruza]

Think of it this way, the ancient Mesoamerican peoples believed that the Spanish Concistodors were gods, this was not the case, they were mere mortals, however, the Spansih were able to exploit this belief to defeat a much superior force that should have, tactically speaking, destroyed the Spanish force without trouble. Now if you told the Aztecs not to worship the Spanish, would it be right?

[Mithrandir]

Think of it this way, the ancient Mesoamerican peoples believed that the Spanish Concistodors were gods, this was not the case, they were mere mortals, however, the Spansih were able to exploit this belief to defeat a much superior force that should have, tactically speaking, destroyed the Spanish force without trouble. Now if you told the Aztecs not to worship the Spanish, would it be right?

Never thought about it like that

[Lord Elvewyn]

Interesting parallel. Yes it'd be right to point out the Spanish aren't gods. Killing any Aztec who objected wouldn't be. Killing them for barbaric ceremonies that involved ripping still beating hearts out of the chest of their victims on the other hand ...

[unokitsune]

I think the Thalmor are a mix of Altmer and Ayleid, especially since the palace was switch back to it's original name, White Gold Tower. I'm all for mer and because of the severe racism of the stormcloaks i'm leaning towards imperials ((there are imperials who still worship talos))

If you listen to the lore, the only reason why the imperials banned talos is because if they didn't, the Thalmor and Aldmeri domion would wipe them out

[OblivionDuruza]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The Ayleids are nigh on extinct, the Thalmor is a predominately Altmeri organisation, although the Aldmeri Dominion also encompasses Valenwood.

The reason for the banning of Talos worship, from a Lore standpoint, was solely the Concordat of White Gold. This was the primary stipulation of the agreement, leading to the end of The Great War. The Thalmor have free reign to enforce this, however the Empire itself is not charged with this task.

[ThE cHoSeN oNe LDB3]

Empire would have been defeated if they didnt work things out with the thalmor. So they had to ban th worship of Talos.

[Velothi]

I think the Thalmor are a mix of Altmer and Ayleid, especially since the palace was switch back to it's original name, White Gold Tower. I'm all for mer and because of the severe racism of the stormcloaks i'm leaning towards imperials ((there are imperials who still worship talos))

If you listen to the lore, the only reason why the imperials banned talos is because if they didn't, the Thalmor and Aldmeri domion would wipe them out

Um, No.

The Imperial Regime banned Talos Worship for they couldn't handle an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion - after they had severely crushed the Aldmeri force in the Imperial City. So the Empire capitulated to the Altmer's ultimatum.

That and of course the Altmer would call the location "White Gold Tower" due to their dead cousins, though we don't actually know if the Imperial Palace has reverted to the old Ayleid name.

And there are also Nords who still worship Talos, which are Stormcloaks, Stormcloak sympathizers or just worshipers.