Why Mer are no worse than any other race

[Fathis]

And when Alessia took the White Gold Tower she had aid from some renegade Ayleids, and when she established her own Empire she had Ayleids as vassals. So elves could cooperate with them. I think that an elven regime with a healthy mix of other races would be not bad, at least not worse than the current regime (I don't think that the Medes have any kind of mandate to be Emperors).

[FrostyInferno016]

Inferno, Skyrim women have beards...and you love that.
Case closed.

You got that right

[Wolfie]

I take this to be proof enough, I never mentioned it was a one off:

So sometimes they do sell their own but you do not have anything that says dark elf’s don’t take women by force, and that all they have are bought you cant say just because they sell their own kind means that Dark elf’s don’t take any by force.
how is that any good logic? I'll agree we don’t know either way, but its not fair for you to say we don’t have enough info to go on and then you say one passage saying they sell their own means dark elf’s must only get them because of that

So what is it that you don't believe in that the Elves as a whole practice

Dark elfs and Wood elf both have somethign I dont like, not just slarvay

The Bosmer do not practice

cannibalism, that’s my thing against them

, and the Altmer only practice on Goblins

Oddly enough as far as I know about these guys there is nothing I don’t like besides an attitude that is not shared by them all, so of all the Elf’s I guess they are the most “liked” in practice wise, but again I don’t know much on them

That and I hate necromancers in Obliv and they seem to always be freaking high elfs (its a joke)

The Men races have practised slavery of their own at least once in the past. Slavery, not prisoners of war, but actual slaves sold on a slave market.

Key word was they had, they don’t anymore, I don’t think USA is evil anymore for having slavery way back when if and when Dark elf’s get rid of slavery (which iirc they did or they tried to) then I would not mind them as much, there are some things I don’t like, like how they don’t like necromancy yet its okay to raise their ancestors

[FrostyInferno016]

Just to let you know where you're confusing me, Duruza...the Bretons, not Cyrodiils, were the aggressors...and the Bretons, not the Cyrodiils, were defeated, captured, and enslaved. Where are you getting that Cyrodiil (under Tiber Septim/Cuhlecain) launched an unprovoked attack on the Bretons? Sancre Tor is/was part of the Colovian Highlands.

[Inugami]

Considering that we never see anything along the lines of cannibal Bosmer in the games, and that the only mention of the "Meat Mandate" that supposedly requires the Bosmer to eat their fallen foes is in the writings of Eric of Guis, I think it's safe to assume that the Green Pact doesn't contain anything of the sort.

As for the necromancy vs. ancestor worship bit... The key difference is that Dunmer ancestor worship practices don't involve digging up graves or acquiring bodies through even less scrupulous means, nor do they bind unwilling souls in them.

And furthermore, I think it's absurd to judge the entire Dunmer race on the basis of slavery when it's not even something that they universally practice, the largest offenders being the Houses Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni. Possibly in that order since the Telvanni are probably the least focused on things like agriculture and industry.

[Wolfie]

Considering that we never see anything along the lines of cannibal Bosmer in the games, and that the only mention of the "Meat Mandate" that supposedly requires the Bosmer to eat their fallen foes is in the writings of Eric of Guis, I think it's safe to assume that the Green Pact doesn't contain anything of the sort.

They are caniabls, in skyrim

Spoiler:

you can become one as a wood elf

As for the necromancy vs. ancestor worship bit... The key difference is that Dunmer ancestor worship practices don't involve digging up graves or acquiring bodies through even less scrupulous means, nor do they bind unwilling souls in them.

So in other words it's okay to rasie the dead if they do it?
Like i said I pesnolyu do not agree with them

And furthermore, I think it's absurd to judge the entire Dunmer race on the basis of slavery when it's not even something that they universally practice, the largest offenders being the Houses Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni. Possibly in that order since the Telvanni are probably the least focused on things like agriculture and industry

then no race is truely evil or bad as no race all do the same thing
then we have their fighting over them selfs and evrey one eles but lets not go there
we are going by majoirty here, the dark elfs in genreal are polar opsites form me
Do I love them? heck yeah but in the they are bad kind of way

[Inugami]

They are caniabls, in skyrim

Spoiler:

you can become one as a wood elf

I find it unlikely that Bethesda would restrict something like that to only one race. Also, trying to find any info to verify that claim lead me to discover that there was a cannibalism perk or something in Fallout 3, a game where you could only play as a human. Not to mention that "can" is a rather important keyword. Edit: Also, I forgot that the book Corpse Preservation confirms that some Bosmer eat the dead, but it specifically says that this is something that "more primitive Bosmer" which more than likely means "as opposed to a more modern majority." Also it never seems to me like it's ever said that there are Bosmer who specifically prey on men and mer, just that there may be some Bosmer deep in Valenwood who will eat somebody IF they kill them.

So in other words it's okay to rasie the dead if they do it?
Like i said I pesnolyu do not agree with them

That's not it at all. It's okay to raise the dead if the dead want to be raised, and the typical native of Morrowind is glad to allow their family or the Tribunal Temple to call on their spirit for aid once they've passed on. Necromancers, in contrast, are generally unconcerned with the matter of consent when it comes to making use of corpses or souls.

then no race is truely evil or bad as no race all do the same thing
then we have their fighting over them selfs and evrey one eles but lets not go there
we are going by majoirty here, the dark elfs in genreal are polar opsites form me
Do I love them? heck yeah but in the they are bad kind of way

Um... Yes, that's the idea. What's wrong with no race being truely evil or bad? That's the way things work in the real world. And slavery isn't even something that the majority of Dunmer practice either, as only the wealthy and powerful among them can really afford it. I imagine there would even be some Dunmer in Morrowind who hate the institution of slavery because workers that you don't have to pay mean fewer jobs for the actual citizens of Morrowind.

[Wolfie]

I find it unlikely that Bethesda would restrict something like that to only one race.

they dont, but wood elfs are canibals, the reasson it was not in game is they ever addd it till now, my point was, it was in thed game now and you will most likely see more wood elfs

Also, trying to find any info to verify that claim lead me to discover that there was a cannibalism perk or something in Fallout 3, a game where you could only play as a human. Not to mention that "can" is a rather important keyword.

Check werewolf and vampire thread, its in there

That's not it at all. It's okay to raise the dead if the dead want to be raised, and the typical native of Morrowind is glad to allow their family or the Tribunal Temple to call on their spirit for aid once they've passed on

And you know this how? has there even been a time when one spoke?

Um... Yes, that's the idea. What's wrong with no race being truely evil or bad?

i dont think your getting it, bad and evil are ophions, to anyone your aginst they are bad or evil

very rarely is someone "evil" and think they are evil, which is the same with the dark elfs

And slavery isn't even something that the majority of Dunmer practice either, as only the wealthy and powerful among them can really afford it. I imagine there would even be some Dunmer in Morrowind who hate the institution of slavery because workers that you don't have to pay mean fewer jobs for the actual citizens of Morrowind.

Any proof to this claim? cause three of the houses did it, and there where wars over slavry
plus again most of them, of couse not all, where part of that

I dont count a few pepole as rededming the whole race

[Inugami]

they dont, but wood elfs are canibals, the reasson it was not in game is they ever addd it till now, my point was, it was in thed game now and you will most likely see more wood elfs

I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to what your point was, here.

And you know this how? has there even been a time when one spoke?

Yes. Even if they don't like to stay in the mortal world for long, most of them are explicitly doing so voluntarily. Those that are unwillingly bound by the Dunmer in their ancestor worship practices are explicitly being punished, even, whereas a typical secular necromancer doesn't even bother to justify doing the same to someone's soul.

i dont think your getting it, bad and evil are ophions, to anyone your aginst they are bad or evil

Um... No, I can be against somebody without necessarily seeing them as evil.

very rarely is someone "evil" and think they are evil, which is the same with the dark elfs

Right. Because humans have a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but Dunmer all think and act exactly alike.

Any proof to this claim? cause three of the houses did it, and there where wars over slavry
plus again most of them, of couse not all, where part of that

I dont count a few pepole as rededming the whole race

The proof is simple. Take a look around Vvardenfell and you won't find anyone who owns a slave that isn't a wealthy noble or merchant besides all the smuggler caves where "product" is hidden away from prying eyes. And the smugglers are probably making a good deal of money as well.

And a race shouldn't have to be redeemed. Individuals and the Great Houses can be held accountable for things they've done, but it's entirely unreasonable to judge an entire race because of actions or decisions that not every member of that race has had a part in.

[OblivionDuruza]

So many posts if I were to reply to them all this post would be huge.

@Wolfie, I see where you're coming from, however I thought I'd point out that the Bosmer have been known to practice cannibalism on their slain foes, but this is simply a part of the Green Pact, which is what makes them 'one with the forest'.

@Frosty, I mean that the Nords broke their allegiance, an unprovoled act that led that led to the enslavement of Bretons by their new allies.

The problem with the Men side of things is that there is not a whole lot of lore on the subject, in fact there is only really lore on the Dunmer, and this is only because Morrowind was set on Vvardenfell. Most of the lore is built on the in-game experiences of seeing slaves, or so that Beth could include slaves in TES III.

Also, to clarify Wolfie, I never said that the Dunmer do not take women and children as slaves, I simply mean that there is no strict evidence pointing either way.

[Woolymammoth]

In my personal opinion, I think slaves would be a Tamriel wide thing, as it is in our own world. Though it is illegal in some places, they still do exist. I think man and mer alike would have slaves, beast, man, and mer alike. Such as captives of war and things like that.

[Wolfie]

Yes but dark elfs did or still are using them openly, kids, women, men not form war

its one thing to take a slave of war, its another to take a kid

[OblivionDuruza]

We're going in circles now Wolfie. For starters, there is no evidence of taking kids as slaves, per se, and secondly, I don't agree that there is a difference between taking slaves as the Dunmer do, or taking slaves from a 'war' when imprisonment is a viable and better option from a moral standpoint.

[Wolfie]

But thats the problem, form your stand point its not, form me it is, you cant say they are not as bad, and just deny evrey ones eles veiws on morals

Also I now hate high elfs for what they did in thre great war and are now ding eles well.

[OblivionDuruza]

And for what reason can I not say that the Elves are not as bad? Show me tangible evidence that they are worse and I will accept it, but theories about enslaving women and children are not tangible.

I have not denied anyone's views on morals, I have explained why I view the Men's enslavement of the Bretons as immoral because the rules of war in our own society dictate that soldiers are taken as Prisoners of War and not sold as slaves. Some have said that war excuses the Men's enslavement of the Bretons, and I ask you, if the Afghans started enslaving the Taliban would that be right? If Israel sold Palestinians into slavery and vice versa, would that be excusable because "they are at war"?

[Trelares]

Duruza, in middle ages and the ancient world it was quite normal to take war prisoners and enslave them, just in the modern wars this is no more common. But I found a book in skyrim that defends the talos banishmant, maybe you should read this

Spoiler:

The Talos Mistake(if I remember right)

[OblivionDuruza]

I'm not against slavery per se in this context. I just don't see the validity in the argument that one form is not as bad as another. It's all the same. I shall hunt down that book though, thanks for the tip.

[Trelares]

I have found another interesting book that you may like Duruza, but maybe you have seen it, it has also mer context but this time dunmer

Spoiler:

The Dunmer of Skyrim

[OblivionDuruza]

Trelares, I love you. I haven't really had much game-time at all, because I have exams on at the moment and I've also been busy with friends this weekend. I shall hunt that one down too!

[FrostyInferno016]

Well...one thing to add to the list of why the Elves generally shouldn't run Tamriel...freaking Thalmor. Banning of Talos? Really?

[OblivionDuruza]

The banning of Talos is legitimate because Talos/Tiber was the one who conquered all of Tamriel. While this is a good thing for Men, particularly Imperials, it's not such a good deed for other races, particularly Elves. Now I'm not one to tell others what to believe, but it's similar to Europeans coming to Australia/America and settling themselves, then telling the Indigenous people that their leader is a God. I know for sure that James Cook was not a divine being .

[FrostyInferno016]

But if that's what they believe, and they've had signs/proof of it...then the Thalmor are at best whiny. According to what I've read, the Empire (as a people) never actually forced that belief on anyone, they simply shared it.

[Ysmir]

Duru one day you have have to answer to the gods of man!
Honestly this is an unending this and that both sides have reason why the other is bad.
Honestly in this particular topic's case it's all up to preference. When you like something your going to find reasons why it is justified.
I'm for the men races of Tamriel....Duru isn't (Traitor to his own species ) I will find why Elves are bad, always. He will find why men are bad,always.
So how about we end this little real life Thalmor versus The Empire eh?

[OblivionDuruza]

First off, I don't think the Men races are bad, by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't think that the Mer races are any worse. Nobody is perfect, everyone has to answer for their own crimes.

Secondly, sometimes Lore discussions/debates seem unending, but just calling them to a close because people don't agree doesn't do anything productive. Many a time a lengthy discussion has led to a realisation of truth on both sides, or to people seeing the validity in others arguments. Plus, no that Skyrim is actually, out, there is a stack of new Lore that has a lot of relevance in the discussion.

The only time a debate should be ended and locked is when it gets out of hand and people start getting personal. I might be wrong, but I don't think that is the case here, I for one am open to evidence that Men are actually purer than Mer.

[Ysmir]

Fair enough.
I just know it can get heated just being um cautious I suppose.
I still believe one day you will answer to the gods of men Mwuahahaha!!!