Why Mer are no worse than any other race

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Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by OblivionDuruza »

Firstly, it needs to be made clear the differences in the different Mer, because it would be foolish to deal with them all as a collective.

The worst of the lot, are undoubtedly the Ayleids (Ancient Ones, Wild Elves, or Heartland High Elves). These were the first race to establish an Empire in Tamriel, and enslaved the indigenous Cyrodiilic (Nede) and Nordic populations, leading to the Slave Rebellion of 1E 242.

However, it should be noted, that the Men who rose from the ashes of the Ayleid Empire, the Alessian Order, attempted to eradicate all Elven presence in Cyrodiil, desecrating holy sites and killing many.

The Altmer are another race that is often question. Among the claims are that they seek to enslave, or even commit genocide, against other races, something that is not true. It is true that the Altmer see themselves as 'the Cultured People', and that they look down upon all other races, as simply inferior, however there is at least some basis to the Altmer's feelings of superiority, and in fact a great number of literary and artistic advances can be attributed to the Altmer. It is also true that the Altmer have enslaved Goblins in the past, but these Goblins are far from a sentient and socialised race, little more than 'monsters' in all depictions in-game.

It should also be noted that this dislike seems to work both ways. Other races see the Altmer as proud and snobbish, with some reason, but it is true that the other races generally resent the Altmer, just as much as they do others. Early literature of man paints the Elves in a dark light, and Elven religion and society does likewise to men.

And then we have the Dunmer, while it might be true that they practice slavery, particularly upon Beast Races, with some (namely House Telvanni) also practising upon Orcs and Men. I am not willing to concede that the Dunmer practice slavery on Men or Orcs, until faced with proof that they do this on a large scale, systematically, if you will. The Dunmer may, for the large part, dislike and distrust 'outlanders', this may be true, but does this make them 'bad'? We can see that this attitude does not extend outside Morrowind, and is not even present in all Dunmer. Skyrim will prove, that a similar attitude towards outsiders, particularly Mer, is present in Skyrim, because these sorts of attitudes are not unique to any one given race.

The Bosmer, are a race that bears no hallmarks of superiority and egocentrisim. I shall not argue their case, as it seems fairly straight forward, but in the 'persecution' of Elves for their beliefs, the Bosmer really have no place alongside any of their brethren.

My contention, is that the Mer are no worse, than any other race. All races are simply trying to make the most of life on Tamriel, the Elves may have their own ways, shunning others, but you must remember that they were the first, and they were overthrown and chased out by men. Therefore, they dislike men, and the men dislike them, because they are dffeent, not because either is different.

(so this OP has been delayed for a while, due to a number of factors, including my inability to work on it because the UESP went down for most of yesterday, so it's not as fleshed out as I would have liked, but here it is nonetheless. Be gentle guys, I know we can all keep it civil :mrgreen:)
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

All Elven empires (perhaps an exception for the Dunmer Holy Kingdom) have been purely Imperialist in the times they've existed.

True there was only two (The Alyeid Empire and the Empire of the Altmer Empire. Think of the Altmer as the british Empire, taking over many areas and forcing its customs upon whomever was alive after the big-killings), yet they still maintained to conquer and expand for resources and capital.

The problem is, most Empires are this. (Even the "benevolent" Septim Empire, which was formed purely to unite Tamriel and gain from the loot and control) So it should be the Mer's Empires are not better then the other Empires.

Plus the idea of 'superiority' is a social construct in society, coming through indoctrination by the state in order to make he populous complaint with the wars the state would wage for the 'greater good'.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by OblivionDuruza »

Exactly, it's not a case of Mer (specifically) being stuck up or feeling 'superior', per se. It's a natural response to the situation they have been placed in and conditioned to.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

I mean sure it, in no way, justifies what they've done.

But its not specifically they're fault, the regime made them into it.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by OblivionDuruza »

That's basically what I'm claiming, although in a different manner to be sure, that they are no worse than anyone else, or at least, that they don't deserve the bad wrap that they get.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by FrostyInferno016 »

Well...one of their first acts is to banish the teachings and believers of Talos. That's a heck of a start.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

And the men basically attempt to subtly shove out the native religion of Morrowind, and most likely have done so for other regions such as Nords and Reguards.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Trelares »

But you must also say for the human races, if you believe in the nine(now eight^^) and see the cults of dunmer who either pray to daedra (the old ways) or pray to three beings that "stole" the power of a dead daedra, it should be clear that they don't like this or not?
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Wolfie »

Are mer the worse? to me yes, but only cause theyir morals

Wood elfs eat their own, others have slaves
to be fair each one has something i dont like but the mer have the most
and when i say dont like I mean as in if i was in the world I would be agsint them
I love them in a "bad guy" kind of way

Like with LotR I like the goblins, but think they are evil
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by FrostyInferno016 »

Velothi wrote:And the men basically attempt to subtly shove out the native religion of Morrowind, and most likely have done so for other regions such as Nords and Reguards.
They didn't out-right ban Daedra, though. They may have expanded some of their beliefs into other regions, but that's not the same as denying them their rights. Like Rome, they would have preferred that others follow their beliefs, but they never acted on those preferences.

Elves have a weird outlook on things :P Like when humans were out-breeding them...they saw that as a threat to their existence, so they responded with a series of pogroms and some even tried to breed them out.

Just saying..
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Avron the S'wit »

I'm not entirely sure what this thread is arguing for. If it is this -
OblivionDuruza wrote:That's basically what I'm claiming, although in a different manner to be sure, that they are no worse than anyone else, or at least, that they don't deserve the bad wrap that they get.
- then I'd like to know where the mer get their bad wrap from? Are you speaking about the general in game experience you get, or the fact that the mer are very popular amongst the players, which are two different things? In my personal experience as a player I never really got the feeling that any of the mer races were beat up on or portrayed more poorly than I've seen the Nords, Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards as well. (Except for my poor Bosmer. Good heavens, are they just bullied to death.)

Besides, each culture is going to fundamentally pick and exaggerate features from the ones around it, especially any that it has history of tension with. That's an inevitable effect of a large, integrated society, and something movies, games, and books tend to portray rather well from real world observations. It's not going to change.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

Avron the S'wit wrote:I'm not entirely sure what this thread is arguing for. If it is this -
OblivionDuruza wrote:That's basically what I'm claiming, although in a different manner to be sure, that they are no worse than anyone else, or at least, that they don't deserve the bad wrap that they get.
- then I'd like to know where the mer get their bad wrap from? Are you speaking about the general in game experience you get, or the fact that the mer are very popular amongst the players, which are two different things? In my personal experience as a player I never really got the feeling that any of the mer races were beat up on or portrayed more poorly than I've seen the Nords, Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards as well. (Except for my poor Bosmer. Good heavens, are they just bullied to death.)

Besides, each culture is going to fundamentally pick and exaggerate features from the ones around it, especially any that it has history of tension with. That's an inevitable effect of a large, integrated society, and something movies, games, and books tend to portray rather well from real world observations. It's not going to change.

Look at Tolkien's Elves - the common concept is that the elves are rather high class aristocrats who view everyone else as a lesser being whom is not worthy enough to scrub their boots.

The Elves didn't like the Orcs simply because they believed them to be a sub-species or merely serf-equivalents.

So, typically, elves are high and pompous. Pretentious, and generally jerkish to anyone who isn't an elf or doesn't fit their exact definition of being an elf.

This can be put to any race, but elves (ergo mer) are the primary ones to start this.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Avron the S'wit »

Velothi wrote:Look at Tolkien's Elves - the common concept is that the elves are rather high class aristocrats who view everyone else as a lesser being whom is not worthy enough to scrub their boots.
Which is sort of what Duruza defended in his opening post, so we're...arguing against that? Or agreeing? I think I am just confused. Although yes, Tolkien classes do tend to be the model to follow, but it's in how each individual author/developer modifies it to fit their world that's the best. They may share the sort of pop cultural things that make elves "elves" and men "men," but to me Tolkien and TES are apples and oranges.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

Duru is arguing for that Mer are just as bad and good as Men, since on "What's your opinion of the Empire" someone said they'd rather live in an Empire of men than an Empire of Elves.

So he's trying to show that the elves are no better or worse then the men. (Then again both Empires oppress and are bad. So let's destroy BOTH! 8D )

But I follow Duru's model of the Elves aren't (as a people) worse or better then men. They're people, blinded by a social construct of pride that limits themselves to co-operation.

And how are Tolkien and TES like Apple and Oranges? I mean, even the concept of Orcs as an oppressed people is pretty clear in the book. (Tolkien never states it, rather goes with the Good Aristocratic feudal lords than the poor serf-like Orcs)

Plus Orcs in TES don't gain citizenship until after Daggerfall and the re-installation of Orsinium as a city of Orcs.

The only difference is that men aren't divided, but rather united.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Avron the S'wit »

Velothi wrote:Duru is arguing for that Mer are just as bad and good as Men, since on "What's your opinion of the Empire" someone said they'd rather live in an Empire of men than an Empire of Elves.
Oh, I see. For some bizarre reason I couldn't wrap my head around that at all. Then yes, kudoz to you, Duru, for bringing this attention to light! We all know that you're only as bad as the person in the mirror, after all.

This does sort of bring up an interesting discussion about stereotypes and other opinions about races across the Empire, however. I think there is some misconception and some heavy opinions about when it comes to men vs. mer, especially given the popularity of Morrowind and the Dunmer across TES fans. All I want to see is my Bosmer get some good attention for once in their poor lives. :P
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Velothi »

Everyone hates Bosmer, don't you know that?

They're like Bretons, totally unpopular. THIS IS FACT.

But yes, I brought up that the social construct of Pride makes the Elves always so conceited and hubristic concerning the other peoples of Tamriel. Hence Nord's aggression to elves (leading to the conflicts with the Dunmer), Imperial aggression against the elves, and redguard aggression against the elves.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by FrostyInferno016 »

Avron the S'wit wrote:
Velothi wrote:Duru is arguing for that Mer are just as bad and good as Men, since on "What's your opinion of the Empire" someone said they'd rather live in an Empire of men than an Empire of Elves.
Oh, I see. For some bizarre reason I couldn't wrap my head around that at all. Then yes, kudoz to you, Duru, for bringing this attention to light! We all know that you're only as bad as the person in the mirror, after all.

This does sort of bring up an interesting discussion about stereotypes and other opinions about races across the Empire, however. I think there is some misconception and some heavy opinions about when it comes to men vs. mer, especially given the popularity of Morrowind and the Dunmer across TES fans. All I want to see is my Bosmer get some good attention for once in their poor lives. :P
I personally really like the Bosmer and Dunmer. Neither necessarily interfere with their neighbours and both are unique. The Bosmer got pushed around by the Altmer so I feel bad for them but they're generally a fair and strong ppl.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

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Velothi wrote:All Elven empires (perhaps an exception for the Dunmer Holy Kingdom) have been purely Imperialist in the times they've existed.

True there was only two (The Alyeid Empire and the Empire of the Altmer Empire. Think of the Altmer as the british Empire, taking over many areas and forcing its customs upon whomever was alive after the big-killings), yet they still maintained to conquer and expand for resources and capital.

The problem is, most Empires are this. (Even the "benevolent" Septim Empire, which was formed purely to unite Tamriel and gain from the loot and control) So it should be the Mer's Empires are not better then the other Empires.

Plus the idea of 'superiority' is a social construct in society, coming through indoctrination by the state in order to make he populous complaint with the wars the state would wage for the 'greater good'.
Velothi wrote:Everyone hates Bosmer, don't you know that?

They're like Bretons, totally unpopular. THIS IS FACT.

But yes, I brought up that the social construct of Pride makes the Elves always so conceited and hubristic concerning the other peoples of Tamriel. Hence Nord's aggression to elves (leading to the conflicts with the Dunmer), Imperial aggression against the elves, and redguard aggression against the elves.
As the account of Altmer society given in Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition was lifted strait from Plato's republic. I would contend that any claim that elves take undue pride in their society requires a great deal more support than the mere recitation of Progressivist platitudes concerning the evils of empire.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by FrostyInferno016 »

That bit was described by Bethesda itself. Not to mention their very name.."High" Elves.."High" contextualized as "snooty" or "haughty".
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Chaos the N'wah »

FrostyInferno016 wrote: I personally really like the Bosmer and Dunmer. Neither necessarily interfere with their neighbours .
I'd call Morrowind's enslavement of their southern neighbors interference, but I'm unsure who's to blame for the 5 year war between Valenwood and Elsweyr.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Ysmir »

In the end I think it's all up to what people like. (Despite lore etc)
Mer to me fall under a alien fascination like Vampires.
Men well.....we know generally who we are as in we die in this time frame, our culture, our languages etc
Elves like Vampires represent a side man always hoped to have. Like Vampires represent a darker nature that man is attracted to.
Elves represent a being of superiority of perfection....also in most cases immortality. Something most men if not all realize we are not perfect. Mind or Body. Elves generally are alien to us although we conceived them cause immortality and perfection are things man always hunts for but is always out of reach. So in that way like vamps Elves attract us.....much like gods do...they are not man or human...they transcend us and our limitations.
In the end no matter how different men are.....we are all the same. In the end TES elves and elves in general no matter how man-like they seem (Refer back to the Empire topic for how TES elves are like men --one of my posts) they are different and therefore more intriguing to us.
Btw I love Bretons and Dunmer with Dwemer coming in closely at 2nd. As far as pure men races....Imperials and Nords are of most interest to me.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by FrostyInferno016 »

Chaos the N'wah wrote:
FrostyInferno016 wrote: I personally really like the Bosmer and Dunmer. Neither necessarily interfere with their neighbours .
I'd call Morrowind's enslavement of their southern neighbors interference, but I'm unsure who's to blame for the 5 year war between Valenwood and Elsweyr.
Interfere in terms of invading or aggressing or trying to somehow effect that provinces politics. Most of the slaves garnered by Morrowind were actually sold by raiders and victors of warring tribes/clans.
The war between Elsweyr and Valenwood was provoked by Elsweyr.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by OblivionDuruza »

Avron the S'wit wrote:
Velothi wrote:Look at Tolkien's Elves - the common concept is that the elves are rather high class aristocrats who view everyone else as a lesser being whom is not worthy enough to scrub their boots.
Which is sort of what Duruza defended in his opening post, so we're...arguing against that? Or agreeing? I think I am just confused. Although yes, Tolkien classes do tend to be the model to follow, but it's in how each individual author/developer modifies it to fit their world that's the best. They may share the sort of pop cultural things that make elves "elves" and men "men," but to me Tolkien and TES are apples and oranges.
This was started because Elves derailed the Empire discussion, I thought, why not start a new thread and save that topic from the Off-topic bug, the others agreed, so you kind of have to have been up with that thread to understand fully. I should have added a link and some quotes yes.
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by JBeata »

Ysmir wrote:In the end I think it's all up to what people like. (Despite lore etc)
Mer to me fall under a alien fascination like Vampires.
Men well.....we know generally who we are as in we die in this time frame, our culture, our languages etc
Elves like Vampires represent a side man always hoped to have. Like Vampires represent a darker nature that man is attracted to.
Elves represent a being of superiority of perfection....also in most cases immortality. Something most men if not all realize we are not perfect. Mind or Body. Elves generally are alien to us although we conceived them cause immortality and perfection are things man always hunts for but is always out of reach. So in that way like vamps Elves attract us.....much like gods do...they are not man or human...they transcend us and our limitations.
In the end no matter how different men are.....we are all the same. In the end TES elves and elves in general no matter how man-like they seem (Refer back to the Empire topic for how TES elves are like men --one of my posts) they are different and therefore more intriguing to us.
Thank you! These perfectly expresses my view. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why Mer are no worse than any other race

Post by Chaos the N'wah »

FrostyInferno016 wrote: Interfere in terms of invading or aggressing or trying to somehow effect that provinces politics. Most of the slaves garnered by Morrowind were actually sold by raiders and victors of warring tribes/clans.
The war between Elsweyr and Valenwood was provoked by Elsweyr.
Dres 'raiders' or a better term slavers used to make journeys down to Black Marsh to capture slaves; an entire economy based around slaves can't sustain itself from 'Spoils of War' from an inconsistent source, but you're right on the interprovincal warring.
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