Your opinion on the Empire

[OblivionDuruza]

Well I'll be honest I don't want an Elven Empire.

1. Pretty obvious elves want back the glory days and we know they view men and beast races little more than savage, if that.
2. Using 1 It's not really fun is it? Elves having beast and men as slaves. Cause you well know that's what elves will try to do.
I just don't see a good future with an Elven empire ruling Tamriel. I wish if it did happen we would have something equal. The empire may not be the most best place and people do have prejudices but it's tolerant and "protects" so to speak the other races.

However, you confuse the Altmer with the Ayleids, they are not the same thing, and the Thalmor would not necessarily enslave other races. The Altmer may believe themselves the most pure of all races, but they haven’t totally enslaved other ‘lesser’ races.

[FrostyInferno016]

I thought the Breton lived peacefully under the elves of Highrock. Perhaps that would have been (and will be ) the norm.

Well...that's because they both enjoyed each other..hence the creation of Manmer

I think it'd be neat to see a modern elven-run Tamriel, I just don't think that the Cyrodiils have done all that bad.

[Ysmir]

Well I'll be honest I don't want an Elven Empire.

1. Pretty obvious elves want back the glory days and we know they view men and beast races little more than savage, if that.
2. Using 1 It's not really fun is it? Elves having beast and men as slaves. Cause you well know that's what elves will try to do.
I just don't see a good future with an Elven empire ruling Tamriel. I wish if it did happen we would have something equal. The empire may not be the most best place and people do have prejudices but it's tolerant and "protects" so to speak the other races.

However, you confuse the Altmer with the Ayleids, they are not the same thing, and the Thalmor would not necessarily enslave other races. The Altmer may believe themselves the most pure of all races, but they haven’t totally enslaved other ‘lesser’ races.

I am not talking specific elves just them in general.
You cannot deny that most elves (I'm still not sure about Bosmer tbh) don't like the human and beast races and most would rather have them dead or as slaves.

[Arkhon]

You cannot deny that most elves (I'm still not sure about Bosmer tbh) don't like the human and beast races and most would rather have them dead or as slaves.

Hmmm, if we look deeply into the issue that's true... Excluding Bosmer because they are all touched...

[OblivionDuruza]

Well the Dunmer do practice slavery, but only upon the Beast Races, not upon the Men races. We also know that even Beast Races can live peacefully in Morrowind, so the Dunmer certainly do not systematically eliminate or remove, or even enslave, entire races. Further, there isn't evidence on the Altmer to say that anything but that they see themselves as higher beings. The Men races do the same no doubt, in fact very few peoples (perhaps excluding the Imga) see themselves as lower than others.

Honestly, only the Ayleids have, what I would agree with you, is the tendency to enslave and subjugate others, and they are long dead. I don't see any reason to fear Mer ruling over Men and others, or at least, no more than to fear Men ruling in the same way.

[JBeata]

Yes that was rather the point I was trying to make by bring up Highrock. Clearly the Breton are living proof of the potential for man and mer to live productively together under elven rule.

[OblivionDuruza]

Fair point, the Bretons are the product of Bosmer (iirc - possibly simply Aldmer) and men (Nedes I believe) bearing offspring. However, we know that High Rock is really a conglomeration of little Kingdoms, perhaps not a true example of Elven rule.

[JBeata]

I believe the original elven inhabitants were Aldmer, but at some point an Altmeri family named Direnni came to power.

[Fathis]

Well, Chancellor Ocato is an elf and he governs for the good of the Empire. And I believe that the Elves know that by now an unfair regime will be cast aside. The elves need the other races, and I believe that the worst xenophobia between races has melt. So they would try to treat them as subjects, not as slaves.

[enyamerT]

Well the Dunmer do practice slavery, but only upon the Beast Races, not upon the Men races.

You haven't been to the slave market in Tel Aruhn lately, have you?

For a quick historical run-down on early Elven-Human relations:

In High Rock, the Aldmer/Altmer treated the local Nedes as second-class citizens, but were obviously not above fooling around with them on a regular basis.
In Cyrodiil, the Ayleids enslaved Men, and were quite brutal about it (some going so far as to display mutilated slaves as pieces of art).
And in Skyrim, the Falmer decided to simply exterminate the early Nord population, no questions asked.

[FrostyInferno016]

Actually, the Nedes that existed in High Rock were all enslaved. It was the Manmer that were upgraded to second class because they shared elven blood as a result of the intermingling. The way I read it, it sounds like the Aldmer and the eventual Altmer saw many human women as objects of pleasure, rather than beings of potential equality.

[enyamerT]

A somewhat relevant piece of information regarding the state of Imperial-Thalmor relations in Skyrim. This was gleaned from the "Sound of Skyrim" clip that Bethesda recently posted on YouTube. (see thread here: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25337) It's from the script used for Joan Allen's voiceover work (I believe her character is one of the last remaining Blades).

Here's the relevant lines of dialogue:

Spoiler:

(Player asks about the White-Gold Concordat)

The Great War...only thirty years past and already ancient history to most people. Seems to me like it just ended...I'ts never really ended for me.

But to answer your question, the White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. I ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day. Also trampled on the sacred name of Talos, and gave the Thalmor free reign to stamp out Talos worship throughout the Empire.

[JBeata]

Actually, the Nedes that existed in High Rock were all enslaved. It was the Manmer that were upgraded to second class because they shared elven blood as a result of the intermingling. The way I read it, it sounds like the Aldmer and the eventual Altmer saw many human women as objects of pleasure, rather than beings of potential equality.

Where does it say the elves of Highrock practiced chattel slavery based on race?

I ask both out of curiosity and because nothing less than a systematic reduction of the Nedes to mere instruments would constitute a formal violation of the Nedes' rights as persons. Especially as these rights, exist in Aldmeri holdings.

You see nations have normally been founded on bonds of blood, with the rights of citizenship being recognition of the claim individuals thus bonded have on one another. Therefore it would be reasonable for none but those with elven blood to have any legal standing.

A somewhat relevant piece of information regarding the state of Imperial-Thalmor relations in Skyrim. This was gleaned from the "Sound of Skyrim" clip that Bethesda recently posted on YouTube. (see thread here: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25337) It's from the script used for Joan Allen's voiceover work (I believe her character is one of the last remaining Blades).

Here's the relevant lines of dialogue:

Spoiler:

(Player asks about the White-Gold Concordat)

The Great War...only thirty years past and already ancient history to most people. Seems to me like it just ended...I'ts never really ended for me.

But to answer your question, the White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. I ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day. Also trampled on the sacred name of Talos, and gave the Thalmor free reign to stamp out Talos worship throughout the Empire.

Hallelujah

[FrostyInferno016]

A somewhat relevant piece of information regarding the state of Imperial-Thalmor relations in Skyrim. This was gleaned from the "Sound of Skyrim" clip that Bethesda recently posted on YouTube. (see thread here: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25337) It's from the script used for Joan Allen's voiceover work (I believe her character is one of the last remaining Blades).

Here's the relevant lines of dialogue:

Spoiler:

(Player asks about the White-Gold Concordat)

The Great War...only thirty years past and already ancient history to most people. Seems to me like it just ended...I'ts never really ended for me.

But to answer your question, the White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. I ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day. Also trampled on the sacred name of Talos, and gave the Thalmor free reign to stamp out Talos worship throughout the Empire.

So wait..the Empire has been decentralized? Anyone know? I've tried to keep away from too many sneak-peeks of Skyrim so I'm not fully up to date.

[JBeata]

I hope they have merely entered an alliance, self-governance is always the ideal.

[enyamerT]

Here's a thought - If the Thalmor have been given free reign to enforce their own religious intolerance, perhaps it's time to revive the Marukhati...

[JBeata]

Well they do have a more ontologically sound account of the divine essence...Nah, I couldn't get past the whole kill all the elves thing.

[FrostyInferno016]

So...the patrols clad in elven armour...could that signal that the elves have a lot more control than the past 3 Eras? Maybe, then, the two sides somehow agreed to share responsibility of control/defense, or either side is allowed to join each others' armies?

[OblivionDuruza]

Frosty, I don't think the Thalmor and the Empire have that good a relationship, even despite the Concordant of White-Gold and their current peace. To me, it seems as though the Empire would have lost the Great War, and were desperate. Why else would they allow Elves to wander through their lands persecuting worshippers of Talos as they see fit?

Well the Dunmer do practice slavery, but only upon the Beast Races, not upon the Men races.

You haven't been to the slave market in Tel Aruhn lately, have you?

For a quick historical run-down on early Elven-Human relations:

In High Rock, the Aldmer/Altmer treated the local Nedes as second-class citizens, but were obviously not above fooling around with them on a regular basis.
In Cyrodiil, the Ayleids enslaved Men, and were quite brutal about it (some going so far as to display mutilated slaves as pieces of art).
And in Skyrim, the Falmer decided to simply exterminate the early Nord population, no questions asked.

Well, I have been there, but I see no proof of systematic enslavement. House Dres is known for its slave trade, specifically of Beast Races. House Telvanni is known to practice its experimentation on all 'lesser' races, but this does not prove that the Dunmer as a whole 'enslave' other races. There are a number of Lore sources, one of which I remember being this (the note on the Telvanni).

Yes, I agree about the Alyeids, although I would not condemn all Elves for one race's crimes.

Further, as it turns out, the Falmer were exterminated by the Nords.

The Aldmer and Falmer occupied Skyrim until the late Merethic, when the final wave of Nordic immigration, led by Ysgramor, finally drove out the mer.

I think this debate on the Elves is one that deserves its own topic, and it is a bit offtopic here, and I've though of creating it a couple of times before, so I'll go ahead and make one.

[FrostyInferno016]

I think this debate on the Elves is one that deserves its own topic, and it is a bit offtopic here, and I've though of creating it a couple of times before, so I'll go ahead and make one.

Agreed; that'd be cool. There's a LOT of ground to cover.

[M.Beata]

It needs to clean up its act or go away it was fine at first but it has gotten worse and worse all the time. The Elves gave Man culture we should be grateful.

[OblivionDuruza]

I think this debate on the Elves is one that deserves its own topic, and it is a bit offtopic here, and I've though of creating it a couple of times before, so I'll go ahead and make one.

Agreed; that'd be cool. There's a LOT of ground to cover.

I started writing up an OP last night, but I got tired, so I saved it. I'll finish it now and update this post in when I'm done with a link.

Also, M.Beta, you rock

Edit: here's the new thread.

[Oasis23]

I feel that the Council is competent but the Emperors make some bad choices

[POMC S117]

I love The Empire but I dislike This Empire.

[N'wah Nern]

I don't have anything against the empire. None of my characters do as well. My Daggerfall character is full on for the empire. My Morrowind character simply wishes they would stop supporting Hlaalu so much and demands more independence for Morrowind (though he thinks the Empire can be a force for good). My Oblivion character didn't care about the empire. She liked Martin and Jauffre, but that's about it. Skyrim character is supporting the Empire over Stormcloaks because he thinks they are the best bet in fighting against the Thalmor and because he doesn't trust Ulfric.

Anybody know who played Uriel in the Daggerfall opening? That guy is awesome.