The Great House of Indoril (Club/Faction)

[Velothi]

That does make a great question, how would the Nerevarine react to the House-warefare and strives?

Would s/he join one side or merely remain out of it? For I'm fairly sure the Nerevarine would try to aid House Indoril in whatever way he/she could, since it is the Ancestor House.

[OblivionDuruza]

I had a response all typed out and my stupid internet dropped out, so I went off to play Oblivion instead. Anyhow ...

The one major failing of the Dunmer is pride, ironically something that they left their brethren to avoid as Chimer. Most of the Dunmer are proud and xenophobic, to varying degrees, few more so than House Indoril, perhaps the Cammona Tong would be one group which I find worse.

So while the Nerevarine fits perfectly into their religion to many extents, one has to wonder if they will be so willing to admit that they were wrong, even though one hopes that they would.

Another thing to consider is what it means to be Hortator and the fact that the Nerevarine is only Hortator of the three Houses on Vvardenfell, in fact in some respects Vvardenfell is like a province unto itself, mostly due to the limitations of the technology. Would House Indoril recognise the Nerevarine as Hortator? We might as well assume that if the PC could convince Houses Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni, then they would be able to convince the mainland Houses. Would the Nerevarine remain Hortator after the Sixth House was defeated? That might be something worth questioning.

Although we don't know much about the Hortator and their role, we do know that the original Nerevar was Hortator. We can also conclude that this position is one of a war leader or similar, not necessarily as a leader otherwise. So with no great threat upon the Dunmer, would the Nerevarine become more of a public figure head? Maybe even replacing the Tribunal? In this case, there would be no reason for Houses Indoril and Dres to declare him or her Hortator, although that does not mean that they would not accept the Nerevarine as a figure of the Temple.

Also, one minor question, does anyone know what bearing completion of the main quest has on the Great Houses?

[Velothi]

Well the Prophecy does not concern becoming Hortator with the main Houses (Hence if you even ask to become Hortator in House Indoril and Dres it is met with anger and various other things, in Tamriel Rebuilt), but a Hortator is a War-leader.

In times of great strife a Horator is chosen, Indoril is "not" in these times. They mostly don't care about the Sixth House on the mainland as a direct threat because they have thousands of other problems, and they might want to re obtain power.

(I have to say, the exterior designs for Redoran and Indoril territory for TR is AMAZING. Duru you must check it and join the TR forum if you have questions.)

But Indoril isn't so much as 'prideful' as say Dres. Indoril is proud of Dunmer traditions and rights, believing that they are slowly being destroyed by the Imperial Administration.

If anything, if the Nerevarine wanted to protect the traditions of Ancestor worship, the Temple, and so forth; then House Indoril would say it was wrong about him/her.

Dres may, however, not accept the Nerevarine as a Temple figure as the Temple found out our PC works for the Blades. (Think about that, your 'savior' works for your enemies that have enslaved you. Would you honestly accept that?)

But completing the main quest basically puts all the Houses in a similar position. They are without a leader (or weakened), but they have you (the Nerevarine) as Hortator. Ayron will probably be the next Arch-Magister of House Telvanni, Aythn Sarethi the Arch-master of House Redoran, and House Hlaalu still has the Duke.

The Temple may gain a new Patriarch (who says the Nerevarine wouldn't join the Tribunal Temple to learn more about it?).

Though if you join a Great House after becoming Nerevarine, you just don't have to fight the leader of the House. He's already dead.

[OblivionDuruza]

Not necessarily dead , You don't have to kill Orvas Dren iirc.

Anyhow, my point is that we know that Indoril nobles killed themselves rather than live under Imperial administration, even though they were allowed to retain all their traditional practices. In the same way, the Nerevarine might not spell the end of Temple worship and so on, but the Nerevarine is still someone foreign, and the House would have to admit that it was wrong in order to accept him or her.

House Indoril isn't exactly the House most reliant on slavery, yet it fought to protect the practice, mainly because of its pride and because the House is opposed to change. I think that this is an underlying factor in House Indoril, and this itself might make the House more inclined to wish to cling to the past more so than others.

[Velothi]

It all depends if House Indoril is someone who can't admit they are wrong (The Temple has, the Ordinators have, Vivec has 'blessed you' and it seems every other faction has admitted that you are a good influence to the Dunmer), so far they've been people who can only be hostile to Imperial meddling.

But I guess with the whole war for slavery, it's that practice the Indoril's believes should be allowed for any Dunmer citizen. And considering House Hlaalu (an Imperial House and the killer of many-a-Indoril) and House Dres lead the charge, I'm pretty sure the Indorils didn't think Hlaalu was doing it because of its 'good' heart.

We also have to think that House Indoril as a political structure that may see things that'll damn the Dunmer. They are the most pious and charitable House, being close to the people more so than Redoran is.

But this also means that they are basically trying to defend the Dunmer people in a way, as they protect the traditions that bind them together as one people. The War against slavery could be (in Indoril and Redorans mind) a war against the people.

As with a merchantile economy now fully in Morrowind, that makes the Imperial East Empire company have influence over the whole economy of Morrowind. Without agriculture back ups, whose to say the EEC will be 'nice' and 'kind' to the poor farmers?

The problem is slavery already makes those farmers in poor positions, but I suppose its a lesser of two evils to Indoril and Redoran.


I still think that House Indoril doesn't hate change, it just hates the Imperial change. The change that made House Hlaalu a super-power House, that forced the Dunmer to give their territory away for autonomy, that allows influence the Dunmer can't fight in their own territory.

Indorils hate the Imperials, ergo any 'change' related to the Imperials they'll likely despise. But if the Nerevarine presented himself or herself as a Hero of the people (defeated the Sixth House is a big one), then House Indoril would surely accept him or her.

[OblivionDuruza]

Oh no doubt the House hates the Imperials, but then again, so do many Dunmer, the Cammona Tong most notably.

On the Civil War, I'm not sure what you mean by "goodness of their hearts." Houses Dres and Hlaalu arguably have the most to loose by the loss of slavery, particularly House Dres. They initiated the war because of Imperial heavy weights, but we also know that House Hlaalu has strong links to the Twin Lamps, although many non-Hlaalus don't realise this so much, because the corruption of the Cammona Tong is too prevalent on Vvardenfell (we don't know about elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that it is not on the mainland, or that it is).

House Indoril surely are known for their charity, but we also must remember that was in the time they were by far the most dominant House. Now that they are weakened, we can assume that their charity has decreased, particularly now that the King of Morrowind is not an Indoril.

Where am I going with all of this? Well I still maintain that House Indoril is strongly rooted in the past, and it could be interesting to explore the idea of accepting change in the House, as maybe a small segment of an Indoril questline. I'm just building up Lore and well reasoned opinions (which I would say yours are , as are Chaos') on the House, for future reference and also because I do like House Indoril so.

[Velothi]

On the Civil War, I'm not sure what you mean by "goodness of their hearts."

House Hlaalu does actions to increase their power, wealth, and influence. House Hlaalu gains more of this when slavery is gone; with a mercantile-based economy instead of half mercantile and half Agricultural.

So, I don't honestly believe the heads of the Hlaalu decided to do a crusade against slavery because they're knights in armor. They're doing it for opportunistic reasons.

Houses Dres and Hlaalu arguably have the most to loose by the loss of slavery, particularly House Dres.

Yet everything to gain

Where am I going with all of this? Well I still maintain that House Indoril is strongly rooted in the past, and it could be interesting to explore the idea of accepting change in the House, as maybe a small segment of an Indoril questline. I'm just building up Lore and well reasoned opinions (which I would say yours are , as are Chaos') on the House, for future reference and also because I do like House Indoril so.

It depends what do you mean by 'change'.

Change in foreign affairs, in view of Imperial Administration or?

[OblivionDuruza]

Well again I see your Redoran bias shinning through whenever House Hlaalu is mentioned . Of course Orvas Dren and the Cammona Tong would not, probably not even Helseth, he's a bad not-true-Hlaalu-but-from-Wayrest-apple, but people like Vedam Dren and Crassius Curio would support a war against slavery.

Honestly, House Dres' economy is an agricultural and slavery based one, and it would take a fair effort to convert it into a mercantile based one. Obviously the Imperial administration comes into play, but still, it's a bit of a stretch to say that House Dres is really benefiting greatly from destroying its primary source of income. I have no doubt that King Helseth's motives are not as chivalrous as some others, but that in itself is not a reason to give House a blanket, 'heartless, only-focused-on-money, opportunistic, corrupt' label.

Putting all that aside, as it's probably more suited for the Hlaalu thread, there is really no one House that is more 'noble' or 'corrupt' than any other. They are each flawed, nobody is perfect of course, and they each face their own struggles. House Indoril no doubt is also in a similar situation. Perhaps there is a rift between an older, more traditional school and a younger, more accepting school. Perhaps the House is under a bit of a power vacuum after the loss of much of its nobility? All interesting enough areas to explore in addition to their expansion onto Vvardenfell.

Edit: typo

[Veck]

You'd have to be vey naive to honestly believe Helseth's followers are going to give up slavery for good. The Dres and Camonna Tong illegally smuggle slaves as it is, and as we all know most Hlaalu are incredibly corrupt, so I have no doubt they'll secretly keep a few slaves to themselves, or even ignore the law and carry on publicly doing it anyway. The Telvanni are the real ones that have lost out here.

[Velothi]

See, Veck agrees with my suspicion of Dres giving up slavery for good

Anyways, speaking of House Indoril progressiveness, what are all your thoughts on the progressiveness of House Indoril compared to the other Houses? Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well House Indoril was by far the most prosperous House before Morrowind joined the Empire. Yes this event seriously undermined them, and I can envisage a serious restructure after this event, particularly because we can gather that a fair number of their higher ranks killed themselves.

As far as a narrative, this leaves the way open for new, younger members and older, grimmer characters. Not so much related to the actual Lore about the House, but I can see a few story possibilities there.

As far as in comparison to the other Houses, as of Morrowind the game, House Indoril is clearly one of, if not the most, disadvantaged Houses. Still, the fact that they went on to wage the Civil War over slavery says to me that they are not beaten or crippled in 3E 427.

[Velothi]

So it shows House Indoril is still in a pretty-good position if they can fight a civil war (though they lost).

Also, TR needs some modders for quests and NPCs. As people are to 'claim' what they want, and not many modders are active currently.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well yes they lost, but then again, the fact they went to war means that either they are very proud to the point of arrogance, or that they are not completely destroyed. House Redoran lost the war as well, and they're far from crippled (or where before the Oblivion Crisis and Red Day/Invasion).

[Velothi]

I'd say a mix, they're proud of their heritage and not destroyed. (For both Redoran and Indoril)

This probably lead to increased relations for the two Houses, if not an alliance between them. So likely during and after the Second Arnesian War, they decided to try and join forces to increase their strength.

[OblivionDuruza]

I'd say a mix, they're proud of their heritage and not destroyed.

I certainly agree with that. Indoril is a proud House, not a bad thing, but something I'm fairly confident in saying.

I think this is something that would have to be quite apparent talking to senior Indorils, maybe less so in the younger generations.

[Velothi]

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21531

Also, I'd like everyone to see how the Governments in Morrowind are described by TR.

This does lead to new lore and new knowledge of how the Empire controls and operates the Province efficiently.

[OblivionDuruza]

Oh a Sload post! Instantly good. I remember when he was head of Lore, back in the day.

I find it interesting that Sload doesn't hint at any wrong doing in Helseth's appointment, and I think it's quite believable that King Drathyn was sympathiser, why else would he have been allowed to hold power? I'd have to check the UESP Wiki to confirm, but this theory seems slightly at odds with some others, at least as far as accusations of foul play in Helseth's rise to the Throne.

Also reading that thread Narsis District people! I have always stood by that name of Kragenmoor. Go Sload!

Also, I'm wondering where exactly this discussion belongs. It's certainly not limited to House Indoril. Maybe its own thread on The Administration and Rule of Morrowind, in Lore?

[Velothi]

Well I have made countless threads concerning the rulership of the Imperial Administration, but this is the first post that seems to take the lore from books and make it into a functioning government.

That and consider what a 'King of Morrowind' is to the Empire. It's basically a Grand-Duke, and there are hundreds of factions playing for power. From the Imperial-made family trees (Houses) to the Great Houses and the minority Houses.

and the only evidence of Helseth's foul play is a certain book (A game at Dinner), and his top of the guard confirmed he knows alchemy.

I suppose we could connect it to what real power does the King of Morrowind have in comparison to the Houses (as Helseth acted as the Grand-Master of House Hlaalu in taking out slavery, not as King).

[OblivionDuruza]

I was reading Game at Dinner just today actually. Even though it alleges the use of poison, it doesn't incriminate him in any way as far as assassinations, and House Dres maintains it is fictitious.

Really, I'd say that the Great Houses have the most power over their own members, Dukes have more power than the King in their own regions/Districts, and the king has dealings with delegates from other provinces, although arguably the Tribunal fill this role.

[Velothi]

And so, the King isn't really that much of a problem besides "A Hlaalu is king!" to the Indorils.

[OblivionDuruza]

Exactly, even though he was in the line to the throne. Although for me the biggest issue is that he isn't even a proper Hlaalu. He's from Wayrest for crying out loud. That would get me upset if I was in any Dunmer's position.

[Velothi]

So I'm guessing Hlaalu shows their hatred, if they didn't like the non pure-blood Hlaalu.

[OblivionDuruza]

Not that he's 'not a pure blood' but that he's a schemer and a trickster, and not even a Dunmer. To me, he brings the House into disrepute and only because of the tricks he learnt in Wayrest. It's worse than slandering the Hlaalu name, it is a blight on House Hlaalu's reputation.

Honestly, I think Helseth would have only been a favourite of the Empire, not of the people, not of his closest advisors, of nobody.

Perhaps actual in-world Dunmer don't mind him as much as I, but those are my views as close to traditional Hlaalu as I see there being.

[Velothi]

Well the people of Mournhold don't particularly care if he died.

[OblivionDuruza]

In-game? I guess so. Just on Mournhold, you'd think that there would be a more prevalent Indoril influence visible in the residents. Maybe that might be something to add as a set of side alterations along with an Indoril/Ordinator Mod.