The Great House of Indoril (Club/Faction)

[OblivionDuruza]

I agree, this could be a real achievement for Great House Indoril, but I think we should postpone anything on that particular mod for now, until more members join and until we really get going on the Battle for Caldera concept, and possible Skyrim Great House Mods, both lined up for the future.

On that note, any luck with Goblin voice and Jingles? I know Jingles has been missing for a while, but I might be able to get in contact with him through other channels if you try and don't get a response.

[Velothi]

I've PMed Goblin Voice.

So far no response.

I haven't PMed Jingles.

[OblivionDuruza]

Okay then, perhaps give him ago and leave it for a while in case others stumble upon this thread and decide to join. In the meantime, I'm still kind of interested about why Vivec has an Indoril influence as far as the Cantons, although they are technically Temple, they're named after Indorils, even though they weren't even featured at all in-game. That being said, the Ordinators, Indorils or a mix of the three Vvardenfell Houses (as we know that the Ordinators are not Indoril exclusive), or both?

[Velothi]

I suppose Vivec allowed Indoril influence since they specifically defend the Temple and its structures.

Ordinators are mix of all Houses, actually. So are Buyoant Armigers; Dres, Telvanni (rare but maybe), Hlaalu, Redoran or Indoril.

Though I suppose a majority of the Ordinators are Indoril based, as the other people of the other Houses would be too busy defending their own territory or trying to maintain the power-balance of their Houses.

[OblivionDuruza]

Yeah I know that , but I mean the Ordinators in-game. Why should House Indoril send men to Vvardenfell when it has no holdings there? Yes House Indoril is highly ingrained in the Temple, but should not the other Houses make efforts in their own territories? At least partially?

I bring this up, partially because the Great House Indoril Mod adds dialogue to every Ordinator, stating that they are a member of House Indoril, along with the PC, if they join the House. That seems a little implausible to me, but then again, it was probably done for convenience.

[Velothi]

Why should House Indoril send men to Vvardenfell when it has no holdings there? Yes House Indoril is highly ingrained in the Temple, but should not the other Houses make efforts in their own territories? At least partially?

Indoril could have a pride in its work? I'm sure a few of those ordinators are Dres, Redoran or Hlaalu. Besides the Indoril, anyways.

Besides, the Order of the Ordinator isn't a way for Indoril to make the other Houses pay their dues either It is just an Order to defend the Temple, we only know alot of members willbe of Indoril descent but we know at least half may be Redoran, Dres or Hlaalu.

So I wouldn't like a mod that tries a generalization of the Ordinators, as they are a variety. It is necessary to add personalities to them.

So even if it is convenience; I think it should be this way.

Ordinators say that we have potential, and direct us to the Captain of the Ordinators. Who, in this case, is an Indoril warrior.

He then directs us to Mournhold to join the House of Indoril if we are available (so you gotta prove yourself in Vivec-City), and then all that fun stuff is possible.

The Problem is that my game doesn't allow me to go to Mournhold until I've completed the main quest. (For Morrowind)

[Chaos the N'wah]

Why wouldn't they go to Vvardenfel?

It's the place where their namesake fought and died, if Indoril had a Holy site above all holy sites, it would be the slopes of Red Mountain.
Indoril is likely closely tied to the Temple chapter at the Ghost Fence (and possibly to the Buoyant Armigers)

[Velothi]

True, their founder (Nerevar Indoril) died at the slopes of Red Mountain.

So probably Indoril has a major influence in Ghostgate, as well as Redoran. Since, literally, they have the Tower of Dusk.

Though I wish Indoril had a larger presence in Vvardenfell like the other Three.

[Chaos the N'wah]

It think that, for that time, it would have been hard to portray Indoril in a way that made it seem different from Redoran. Part of the reason the original three worked well was because they were the three archetypes (warrior, wizard, thief).

If they had added it as a non-joinable faction and made them seem like the most devout of the Temple or a defender of the faith kind of people, it could work.

But then it would feel like it would be weird without the last House in there. Perhaps they could have made the two counterbalance each other, Indoril being the devout to a fault and Dres being the sanctioned 'evil' similar to the cammona tong.

[Velothi]

Hell, the Dres could probably fully join and accept the Cammona Tong in their ranks (thus small Dres colony in the Ascadian Isles as this will show Dres being close to the Temple but also being their slaver types).

Though I will wonder when TR finally finishes the Redoran and Indoril territories. They'll be my favorite if anything.

But to make an Indoril mod, we have to show them as very devout followers of the Temple. This also, therefore, means that they will somewhat support slavery as a tradition of the Dunmer.

So we may add some quests where your loyalties are somewhat tested, to be an abolitionist (but give a good reason for it with items you can find) or be an full conservative Indoril.

[Chaos the N'wah]

I think that the warrior way of Redoran could have been emphasized more, to me they seemed like a combination of the Fighter's Guild and the Temple. I felt like more of an animal control officer, assassin for hire, and errand boy than part of a House of Honorbound Warriors.

As for Indoril, they need to up hold not only the faith of the Dunmer people, but the culture as well, condoning slavery, abhorring necromancy, and generally seem like the average Dunmer with the patriotism turned up to 11.

Dres would really give a face to the slavers of Vvardenfel, in the game the slavers just seemed like smugglers that the guards overlooked and the Telvanni were the only house to really show the legality of slavery in Morrowind with the open-air slave markets (One in suran as well, but you'd think there would be more across the island). Dres would bring some much needed bravado to the feel of slavery and make the abolitionists seem more like rebels within the culture

[Velothi]

Well I think the majority of the quests in Redoran were a bit bound with honor (honor to help the people when it needs it, to keep the Redoran people pleased and defend the Lords of Redoran when needed), though they could have emphasized on warrior parts yes.

As maybe some duels of honor you have to do, more helping the denizens of Ald'ruhn, hell even setting up a Temple in your own manor (which I suppose would be hard but it'd be more fun).

Though Indoril quests would be more Temple-related with that brand of warrior. Defend the people, and give them charity. Defend the Temple, bring them Justice. Help the Poor, Almalexia's people; remain intellectually keen like Vivec and Sotha Sil.

Become one with the ways of Magic like our Magus father, Sotha Sil.

All that, though with Dres I think the bravado would be they do it in open day light. Dunmer do their jobs, are friendly to other Dunmer, and buy and sell slaves at whim.

Trying to indoctrinate that slaves are nothing more than property like weapons or food. This allows the idea that abolitionists are nothing more than thieves.

[Chaos the N'wah]

Though Indoril quests would be more Temple-related with that brand of warrior. Defend the people, and give them charity. Defend the Temple, bring them Justice. Help the Poor, Almalexia's people; remain intellectually keen like Vivec and Sotha Sil.

Become one with the ways of Magic like our Magus father, Sotha Sil.

Getting into the type of class associated with Indoril, I'd imagine them as more Crusaders, Monks, Pilgrims and Witchhunters (More so Pilgrim than anything else, Pilgrim: "Pilgrims are travellers, seekers of truth and enlightenment. They fortify themselves for road and wilderness with arms, armor, and magic, and through wide experience of the world, they become shrewd in commerce and persuasion." Sotha Sil's House is the Telvanni and Indoril is more of a house in service to the Tribunal in all aspects instead of individual gods such as the previously mention Telvanni or the Buoyant Armigers are to Vivec. Although I get the feeling that they're closely related to Almalexia's part of the Tribunal.

All that, though with Dres I think the bravado would be they do it in open day light. Dunmer do their jobs, are friendly to other Dunmer, and buy and sell slaves at whim.

Trying to indoctrinate that slaves are nothing more than property like weapons or food. This allows the idea that abolitionists are nothing more than thieves.

I'd expect to see at least a small slave market in or near Vivec and the non-Hlaalu or foreign allied major cities (like Ald'ruhn). And one giant market intended as the main hub for slave trade on Vvardenfel, with the other, smaller markets being just another changing of hands (Dres Trader brings slaves to main market, is bought by a Telvanni trader to be sold at a local market)

Archetype-wise, I'd imagine them to be like Agents, Scouts, Acrobats, and Rogues (more of a darker class than Hlaalu's thief-like qualities)

House Stereotypes:

• Hlaalu - Pure Stealth
  Telvanni - Pure Magic
  Redoran - Pure Combat
  Indoril - Magic/Combat
  Dres - Stealth/Combat
  Dagoth - Stealth/Magic

But that's just how I view them

[Velothi]

Perhaps, as Almalexia is the most charitable of the three Tribunal Gods.

But House Indoril is a charitable house, one of the most and only one. I'd expect alot of their quests (if not Tribunal Temple related) to be associated with the poor.

Though I think Redoran would grudgingly accept Dres's slave market; as Redoran does tolerate slavery but is known to only possess one. (which is also a Tribunal hub)

I'm guessing slavery isn't that honorable to the eyes of Redorans, as it diminishes pride in work since it forces the Dunmer to rely on the work of others than one self.

But since it is Dres (one of their only allies), I suppose they'd tolerate a slave market in their capital.

Though there is an Ordinator class (For vivec and for the player), so alot would possess that as well as those you've mentioned.

[OblivionDuruza]

My main point is that I don't see why Indoril has no holdings on what is mostly Temple land. It doesn't seem right that Indoril is left out, and geographically they do not face the same problems as House Dres, so the Azura's Coast and Molag Amur region would make sense if it were Indoril.

On those archetype stereotypes that Chaos posted, they seem to be the general gameplay related breakdowns of the Houses, although in practice the Houses are a little different.

Also on the point of the quests Velothi mentioned, that would seem to be it. The Indoril focus would be on interatction with the Temple and Ordinators, and the House is known for its charity, as mentioned in a number of sources, including Hlaalu's own, Grapsing Fortune.

Edit: spelling

[Velothi]

Also, in my talk with a modder in TR; Redoran is actually individualistic in comparison to Indoril.

Necrom is done in interior cells and exterior cells; NPCs and Quests are not done as of yet.

And we could do this for the Indoril mod. The Charity and help to the poor I mean.

[Chaos the N'wah]

so the Azura's Coast and Molad Amur region would make sense if it were Indoril.

Ironic given the fact that those two regions contain not only Telvanni settlements (Tel Branora and Tel Uvirith), multiple Daedric ruins and a Shrine to Azura, but also where the dissident priests are located

I'd imagine their settlements to be built around or very near religious sites in similar fashions to how Molag Mar was built near Mt. Kand and Assarnibibi
(Layouts similar to Gnisis [temple as the center of the town and acting as a pseudo museum], but located along the southeastern coasts)

[Velothi]

Vos had a museum of Dwemer mechanics

Though Gnisis is still a holy site, more so than a museum. Though it would be interesting for a museum to exist of Temple artifacts..

Though Indoril territory might be Vivec, Ghostgate, some territory near Molag Mar (small costal cities and all that) and maybe the Temple colonization of Sheogorad region.

As currently it is an Imperial region with Nordic citizens.

[Chaos the N'wah]

Vivec is too all-encompassing for it to be Indoril (More temple owned despite two of the cantons being named after Saints from Indoril), it would be weird to have other houses have dedicated cantons within another House's City

As Duru said, the Molag Amur and Azura's Coast (More mainland-Vvardenfel than the islands) seem like the most logical place for Indoril to be given their lands on the mainland. Perhaps leading all the way to the Ghost Gate with bases near Lake Nabia (Sulipund is an old Velothi tower that could work if it didn't have a Telvanni residing in it)

But that would even more to the in-fighting over the Ashland areas that Redoran and Telvanni participate in (Throw in the Ashlander tribes as well)

[Velothi]

Although that is true with the infighting; I believe the relations of Redoran to Indoril would prevent much conflict (as this makes Indoril the only ally to Redoran on the entire island besides the Temple and Armigers) between them.

They might even share ones territory if it came down to it. (We can make a quest to "remove" the Telvanni from the tower, only problem is that PAX Redoran does this as well. So we could draft it to make the quest be make the Telvanni go away, be you kill them yourself or do it in the PAX Redoran quest)

For the Ashlanders we can introduce some Indoril attempts to convert or make peace with their fellow Dunmer (even some aid missions to the most ruthless of the tribes - Erabenimsun. Due to the proximity to them, if they had the Zaniab it'd be much easier to trade and form friendly relations with).

As the Indorils only reason to be hostile to them is their lack of faith in the Temple, but they don't send crusades to Vvardenfell or surrounding areas of Mournhold District to convert every ashlander to the Three. (Since Vvardenfell is apart of the Mainland, I'm guessing there are more than four ashlander tribes in the entire Dunmeri nation.)

I'm guessing the only threat would be the Telvanni due to their aggressive expansionist nature in Vvardenfell (hell they were already violating much of the law with most of their territory of Vos and Mora, Uvirith was just a nice addition to the set). So I'm guessing there would be House-Wars between Telvanni and Indoril to decide whom is the dominant power.

Which honestly depends because Telvanni doesn't conduct military warfare; their strongest members are the ones whom would say "why should we fight the Indorils? Send our troops to do it!", or bicker about pointless things.

Avryon wouldn't care, Arch-magister wouldn't care, no one on the Council would honestly care. Only the troops and "mundane" Telvanni would. And put them against Indoril soldiers? Indoril will win against Telvanni ground soldiers every day due to the training of Indoril.

Telvanni military is mostly based in the magic wizard-lords, as I'm sure most of its ground army is merely a guard set up to defend lands from other Telvanni mage-wizard guards.

It's like a game of chess, they never place themselves in the fight. Just another, for they are too important or not caring to place themselves in the fight directly.


EDIT: This is from one of the heads at the TR forum when I asked a question about House Indoril, its relations to the Temple membership and the quest-line in TR.

Membership in Indoril will be open for all races.

While faction members would not be required to join the temple, from a roleplaying point of view, it would make sense if they did.

Indoril quest lines will deal with the house grasping at the power it once had, and attempting to slow or reverse their decline. This is a very broad overview though, so don't think that this won't involve many things, including the temple.

As for representing the indoril mindset of the man on the street, that will be done with factional dialog just like every other faction.

Every day, I think TR is becoming more and more official lore-creators for Morrowind than Bethseda.

[OblivionDuruza]

@Chaos, I mean from a geographical perspective. Molag Mar is Temple, and the only Telvanni settlement in the Molag Amur region is Tel Uvirth, which was a bold expansion into the area, highlighting the Telvanni aggression as far as expansion (aggression in a non-combative way). I mentioned the Azura's Coast region, because it separates Molag Amur from the Inner Sea, and it's not inconcievable that House Indoril might crush the dissidents in that area.

Map of the Regions and Map of the Influence of Factions

Edit: for some reason, Molag keeps coming out as Molad

[Velothi]

Wouldn't House Indoril take out Tel Uvirith if it proved to be a threat or obstacle to ou- I mean their expansion?

[OblivionDuruza]

Well I would have liked a proper Lore explanation as to why we weren't there in the first place, seeing as Vvardenfell is Temple dominated. I know the real life reason, that Beth wanted 3 Houses, one for each specialisation, but it just seems unlikely to me. Although in saying that, I guess the Imperial administration was a major factor.

[Chaos the N'wah]

@Chaos, I mean from a geographical perspective. Molag Mar is Temple, and the only Telvanni settlement in the Molag Amur region is Tel Uvirth, which was a bold expansion into the area, highlighting the Telvanni aggression as far as expansion (aggression in a non-combative way). I mentioned the Azura's Coast region, because it separates Molag Amur from the Inner Sea, and it's not inconcievable that House Indoril might crush the dissidents in that area.

What about Tel Branora????

On Telvanni aggression, it's very passive aggressive in an arrogant way, they tend to just take what they want and act like they're not at fault while implying the wounded party is the one causing the problems

Also: Gnisis IS NOT IMPERIAL LEGION I don't care if there's a fort nearby and a cult within the town, at most it's neutral or temple owned

[OblivionDuruza]

Nobody said it was Legion did they Chaos? Anyhow, the Telvanni expansion is somewhat subtle, but it's pretty obvious what they're trying to do. And yes, Tel Branora is on the Azrua's Coast, I neglected to mention it as it is not part of the 'defensive ring' .

Still, there's a large chunk of land between the 'mainland' (of Vvardenfell) north of Branora and the Erabenimsun Camp open for House Indoril.