Race Sex and Marriage

[BOETHIABADMAN]

We all know girl on girl is what you would call 'Fantasy'. However i dont see how gay males would appeal.

Look, I've played every one of the Elder Scrolls games far more than I care to admit. I've wasted quite a few days of my life in Cyrodiil, on quite a few different characters, in quite a few different ways. I'm gay, and I'm hardly naive enough to believe that I'm going to change your mind on the subject or that anything is capable of doing so, but the fact is that previous to Skyrim, romantic relationships haven't been an option for anyone.

I'm fine with that; I am absolutely willing to play a game that focuses on the adventure and doesn't nod toward personal relationships at all; however, what I am NOT okay with doing is playing yet another game in which I have to sit through a romance with which I can neither identify nor feel included. I would also hate to have the idea enforced that I should just 'remain celibate' because they didn't include the option for homosexual pairings- I get enough of that in real life, thank you. In a game which is all about the role-playing, especially in a fantasy setting, I don't want limits imposed on me that aren't imposed on other gamers. That's fair to neither me, nor anyone else who wishes to explore that avenue.

If you don't want to deal with it, ignore it, or kill all the gays in-game; I really don't care. It's your world to shape as you wish- I don't understand why you would wish to see others denied the same privilege.

I could not have said it better ^_^ you sir are a genius. Having played both mass effect games it got quite boring having to go with liara or Miranda when I would much rather have a sword fight with joker or garrus it seems demeaning and just stupid to rule it out. Dragon Age.did it and henceforth is still one of my faves.

[BOETHIABADMAN]

So straying off the homosexuality path having looked at some of the new character designs it seems much more appealing to play as a beast character. I never really found them appealing in ES 4 for some reason.

[Sloady]

I'm too prejudiced to play as a Beast Race... oh, the irony... Might be funny for a Dunmer to marry an Argonian though.

[BOETHIABADMAN]

I'm too prejudiced to play as a Beast Race... oh, the irony... Might be funny for a Dunmer to marry an Argonian though.

I guess I'm kind of the same Haha and yes I rather think my orc/bosmer relationship would be pretty funny

[OblivionDuruza]

My take on the issue:

It's clear that adding this kind of content seems to only cause issues with homosexuals and homophobics, therefore, it can get in the way of the game, and if it does, it shouldn't be a part of it.

I'm not against free-love and what not, but I care much more about the game experience as a whole than one element that causes so much strife as demonstrated by this thread, and others.

[Haravikk]

Oh dear, if his sexual orientation was straight then i'm sure he would of been able to swing his sword like a real man and still be alive, OK i joke i joke seriously, but i just think i wouldn't be able to take the game seriously, a gay wizard or mage will be swinging his staff at me and i will not be able to stop thinking about repulsive things lmao.

It's a fair enough point in a way; the last thing we'd want are over the top characters of any sexuality as it'd be distracting.

I think that some of the party member options in Dragon Age are okay, as none of them are too in your face, though Zevran in origins was extremely annoying as the sole purpose of all of his dialogue appeared to be innuendo or flirtation.

I'd like there to be some diversity, so long as such characters aren't too persistent to the point of being annoying, or so flamboyant as to be entirely unrealistic as a character living in Skyrim. It's worth mentioning as well, that while the Elder Scrolls is a fantasy environment, it is still semi-inspired by history, and we've seen cases of racism or even citizens disapproving of two people living together without being married. So it's fair to assume that non-heterosexual relationships wouldn't exactly be encouraged by the various peoples of the Elder Scrolls series, which is just a fact of the setting.

It's always possible some groups may be more accepting than others, my point is that any characters shouldn't feel stuck in for political correctness' sake, but in a way that makes sense.


Lastly, with regards to NPCs flirting with the player character in general; I really hope it's not too common place, the worst thing would be if everyone you meet is hitting on you, compliments maybe, but in Dragon Age everyone seems to have joined your party for the sole purpose of jumping in bed with you. Mass Effect kind of has this problem as well, as there's no logical transition, one minute you're being nice, the next the NPC is madly in love with you and jealously following everything you do with other members of your party.

[POMC S117]

I'm straight, but I find it disgusting that some people are saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to be homosexuals in Skyrim just for that reason. I don't agree with the concept of homosexuality, but I tolerate them and see them as equals, and, in my eyes, anyone who is racist for no reason is lesser than the race, creed or ideology that they are making fun of.

[OblivionDuruza]

This is exactly why they should tone down any in-game relationships, both heterosexual and homosexual. Instead, they should build more depth in relationships with NPCs.

Think of the relationship between Professor X and Magneto. It isn't sexual, but there are people who claim it is more than a friendship. That kind of sophistication beats having sex in a game, as far as I see it. And it certainly is as far as I would like to see things go.

I'd like a mentor-student relationship with Esbern for instance, more so than what you get from Oblivion or Morrowind. That's the kind of relationship that Bethesda should aim for, to build emotional connection with the characters, and create more engaging storylines.

The Elder Scrolls does not need sex or overly adult relationships, they don't need marriage or other civil unions. Those things are more sacred than a game would give them credit, and besides, who wants to RP a stressful relationship when there are enough in the real world to deal with.

I want to play the game and chill out, become another person and forget the real world. I don't need a nagging wife to help me do that. And before you say that your spouse wont nag, then where does all your immersion go? Relationships without stress are not real at all.

Still, o bring the topic back to the OP, prejudice and racial tension in particular, would be great additions to the game. And I believe there will be a strong man/mer tension in-game.

[POMC S117]

Duruza, what about the tavern wenches?

But I agree with you on the racism part. It'll be interesting, although I'll play what I am in real-life. I'd stand up for any of the races, be they orc, Dunmer or Argonian.

[OblivionDuruza]

If it's handled in a casual and funny way, with light sexual references and a fair amount of humorous flirting, without actual sex, then the idea is a good one. But sex is not necessary in the game, and I'm yet to see anyone who can put forward an argument that will convince me that it is necessary to the game.

Edit: typo

[POMC S117]

Well, it is cold in Skyrim.

[Haravikk]

Well, it is cold in Skyrim.

Heh, this

Otherwise, sex isn't necessarily a requirement, but it's a well established part of most romantic or even a few casual relationships, so if those are in then NPC's should at least be aware that these things go on; we don't need to see it, and we definitely don't need virtual spouses spouting constant innuendo or being bombarded with flirtation.

In any event; it's just something that should be acknowledged to at least some degree, but as Duruza rightly points out we hardly need it to be a focus, the focus should be on forging engaging relationships with NPC, friendship, romance, rivalry, mentor, whatever. It's all about bringing the NPC's to life, and making them important to the player, rather than just things that are there.


NPC's should disapprove or strange unions, or just plain hate everything to do with a race they don't like, or be accepting of everyone, or any number of realistic reactions.

[POMC S117]

Yes, I agree with Duruza as well Haravikk. If they get all of those relationships spot on, then they can venture into the controversial planes of fornication.

[JJKG]

I don't see any reason for it and I don't really see any reason against it, so as long as it is handled properly, I wouldn't mind it.

[Arch-Mage Matt]

I have a feeling the only gay people in Skyrim will be dead. Again.

[Velothi]

May Alduin protect them?

Though it would be interesting to see inter-racial marriages (and by marriages I mean actual ones like in Fallout 2 you could have) within Skyrim which is mostly a single-racial society of Nords with Imperials and various others coming to Skyrim for their own reasons or for Vacation.

But they probably won't burn them like witches or any of the sort.

[POMC S117]

Yes! TES games are about immersion and fun. It has an amazing depth of lore, however, it is just as easy to start from Oblivion without playing any other TES games as it would be starting from Arena and onwards! I hope that it isn't an 18, me fears my mum might not get me it if it is.

[KrisCrash]

I honestly hope there will not be explicit sex. 'Cause that would also mean dictating how your character likes to have sex (and I can't help noticing there's a lot of preconceived ideas around about how homosex works) - more on that later.

But ah, who hasn't woken up next to the Adoring Fan's blissful smile? D:

I think including homophobia of any kind would hurt the game much, much more than simply sticking to "hetero marriage only" or a discreet "you can marry any sex or race". The racism is hilarious because the races aren't real, but gays and lesbians are very real. I also think.. bisexuality is much more realistic than fixing your character on an orientation.. Mass Effect was open about it and didn't make it seem special who you dated, right? Same with some of the later Sims games.

And I'm actually including something else when I say I don't want homophobia... I don't want homo stereotypes either, the effeminate types especially. I kinda prefer flamboyancy and machoism to be related to class and race instead, don't want to judge characters' sexuality on it. Reminds me how a blogger complained about Rainbow Dash being a flat lesbian stereotype in Friendship is Magic -she is sporty, tomboyish and has rainbows - but that didn't mean she was lesbian. So people just read too much into it, with her own prejudice, she expected others to be prejudiced.

Hostility to the concept of same-sex marriage predates abrahamic religion by thousands of years, dude. Even in Rome where same sex relationships were openly permitted, marriage was forbidden and frowned upon. In Viking scandinavia, same sex relations were almost unheard of, and were generally not approved of on the basis that everyone was expected to marry and produce offspring, even if they were openly gay.

I have a strong feeling Vikings were huge pragmatists like that. Even today in Denmark there's a huge notion that, if you are different, you can just shut up and keep it to yourself, and do yours for society. It's got good and bad things.

I'm probably more interested in my character making friends than getting married... or if he or she can have a life partner and exactly how much is between them is undescribed. But just character relations that formed as you played, not because of a set quest, but because you took interest in those NPCs.

Did someone say rivalry? That would be AWESOME in so many ways. That guy always breathing down your neck? Trying to beat you to the treasure? Shoving you when you passed each other in the streets? Telling bad rumours about you? And you would hate him, but you'd also laugh because it was so brilliant. Kept you on your toes.

Hm, it's actually a good question if they'd put a limit on the races too... if you warm up to someone and ask them out, but they are: I like you and all, but we just don't mix! ... but then, if the relationships were just nondescript best-friends-forever deals then it wouldn't have to have any limits.

[Ataxio]

As much as I'd like to see complex relationships / marriage / even adult content out of the box from Bethesda (lawl) . I think these things would be best left to the community to develop on their own.

I have yet to see any game that features decent romance, & honestly... I don't think games should be dealing with this until we have some star trek holo-deck stuff irl. In light of that, I would much rather have players mod this content in them selves. In that way, Bethesda can focus on other areas of the game.

As for the homophobia business. I agree with them keeping it out. Solely on the basis that it is not Earth and has nothing to do with Earth. Our concepts are void in Nirn. Who is to say how the people that inhibit that world perceive homosexuality? Since there are little to no major references on the subject matter from games or books... we are left to assume. Perhaps this is for good reason. I want to remember the Elder Scrolls for delivering stellar content and epic lore. Not for introducing inequality to games.

[magius241]

I think this thread needs a reality check, friends.
Thus, let us eavesdrop on an imaginary conversation that takes place at Bethesda at some point in Skyrim's development.
Godd Howard: So, should we do relationships in Skyrim?
Misc. Guy 1: Yeah, that'd be awesome!
Misc. guy 2: Agreed. Except...
Godd:What is it, Misc. 2?
2: Well, how would we handle... you know...
(All snicker immaturely)
Godd: Ah, we probably shouldn't.
1: Yeah, or just do a black screen.

Thus, my friends, we come to the conclusion that even if there is sex in Skyrim, Bethesda most certainly will not make a cutscene for you to watch.
In conclusion,

If someone can make an argument better than "I LOOV S3333X....."

Blackfire, you're my hero.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Please do try to be serious about this. It keeps people from spamming.

[Fist]

Oh dear, if his sexual orientation was straight then i'm sure he would of been able to swing his sword like a real man and still be alive, OK i joke i joke seriously, but i just think i wouldn't be able to take the game seriously, a gay wizard or mage will be swinging his staff at me and i will not be able to stop thinking about repulsive things lmao.

oh jeez let the fun begin.

Its not like they're going to display their sexual orientation over their heads or anything. If they do include same-sex marriage, im pretty sure every citizen of Skyrim will be bisexual, ya know, so your options aren't limited.

[andhabb]

Skyrim IS based on Dark Age Scandinavia, and homos weren't taken very kindly upon. A fun fact, however: the masculine guy in a homosexual relationship would be seen as a pretty normal dude, whereas the feminine one would be mocked. I'd love a degree of homophobia and racism in Skyrim, I think it would strongly increase immersion.

[BOETHIABADMAN]

Skyrim IS based on Dark Age Scandinavia, and homos weren't taken very kindly upon. A fun fact, however: the masculine guy in a homosexual relationship would be seen as a pretty normal dude, whereas the feminine one would be mocked. I'd love a degree of homophobia and racism in Skyrim, I think it would strongly increase immersion.

I agree with the immersion thing but homophobia would raise some anger in the community which is never a good thing. If they were to just hint at homophobia then I believe it would be fine but it is a huge risk :/

[KrisCrash]

It's not like there's always a masculine person and a feminine person in a same-sex relationship. NO, that's just more prejudice, and quite possibly a modern thing because we have the special subcultures we have now. The vast majority of gay men and women are just like everyone else.

And yes, having sex with your spouse would probably just bring the Sleep screen up enjoy your restored health/stamina/magicka and possibly increased disposition with someone.

But if you get a disease you need a serious relationship talk