My worries

[River]

i think the "hardcore" worry comes in the fact that the casual elements often ruin the act of playing a role.

in oblivion, you could easily do everything. at once. and you were practically expected to. there was never any collision between interests, never any hard choice to make. that was to appeal to the casual that wishes to have maybe 1 character that does everything. the levelled system of oblivion also made it so all that content could be done from lvl 1. now, i am not saying that oblivion was terrible for it. oblivion is still by FAR my favorite rpg to play, simply due to the freedom of it.

but look at morrowind. you've got lvl 5 skeletons packing 50 arrows with Paralyze for 10 Seconds on em, real choices on what factions you can or cannot stay on good terms with, and the looming threat of being branded for life as an enemy to very dangerous folk. the major questing arcs actually interfered with other factions. and because you couldn't BE everything, and because there were so many limitations, it made your character much more focused in the role you intended for it. also god forbid you wandered somewhere you shouldn't have yet at your level.

it isn't about difficulty. its about punishment. oblivion had NO punishment. no consequences. you didn't totally lock out entire factions from 1 action.

my personal hope is that Skyrim brings back punishment. brings back decision. gives a reason for having specialized characters. but i also dont wish for a super-morrowind that totally locks out the casual. there's nothing wrong with a little decision making for the casual gamer, and i think its silly that game makers don't expect the casual to be capable of roleplaying.

I have to say this makes a lot of sense, and is probably as close as you can come to balancing the game for all parties. You can't completely exclude casual gamers as it is essentially their money that allows Bethesda to make the game as big as it is.

[mptrj]

Perhaps I should clarify my opinions,
I don't want to see Morrowind 2.
I don't want to see Oblivion 2.
I want to see something different, that maybe leaves some things from the old games out (Mysticism), however I want to see that Skyrim will also introduce new things.

I know I'd be hard pressed to find someone who has played through all four major TES games and hated them all. The reason that TES is so successful is because they are all very different.

As for casual vs. hardcore, I agree with Feather in that one shouldn't be able to join the Knights of the Nine and actually be a Daedric Prince at the same time. However, I would also be rather annoyed if I wandered into a cave only to be promptly sliced to pieces by a skeleton champion as opposed to a normal skeleton, which I could normally kill. In other words, I could rarely tell when I was going somewhere I shouldn't be in Morrowind until my head lie separated from my body and mounted on a spear by the front door. Skyrim should make stronger enemies easily distinguishable from their weaker cousins.

[The Tourist]

mptrj: agreed. An improved system of player/world 'feedback' would ideally be a better compromise. But ultimately it would be very hard to implement, to ensure the player is paying attention to the games pointers and learning. From what I've played, Valve are the best in the biz for this contextual process (Half-Life 2, L4D, Portal) of teaching the player what's possible and what's not. But in an open-worlder, that's not so easy.

So I have no problem with Morrowind's trial and error method. Never in a TES have I felt betrayed (for want of a better word) by the environment or the level of area enemies, which - even in my cynicism towards Bethesda - is an admirable design virtue. If you pass through the Ghostgate at level1, you deserve to die mercilessly.

[JJSmart]

However, I would also be rather annoyed if I wandered into a cave only to be promptly sliced to pieces by a skeleton champion as opposed to a normal skeleton, which I could normally kill. In other words, I could rarely tell when I was going somewhere I shouldn't be in Morrowind until my head lie separated from my body and mounted on a spear by the front door. Skyrim should make stronger enemies easily distinguishable from their weaker cousins.

I was thinking about this while reading other threads. It'd be interesting if, when one or more enemies of far higher level than you (the "you can't possibly win" enemies) sees you and engages you, time slows down for...say 10 to 15 seconds and you hear your heartbeat as a warning to FLEEEEE!!!

[Vivec's Tears]

I admit I worry some too. I know for certain that there will be a lot of disappointment about TES5 even if it -is- good, just because so much excitement and hype about is has been building.

However, I think expecting TES5 to be Morrowind worthy is setting your standards a bit high. I'm sure it will be fun, but I doubt it will have the same amazing feel of Morrowind.

[Spyger]

To those saying "Skyrim is t3h pwnz0rz! 5 yrs dev tiem guiz, best gaem EV4R! XD", lower your expectations, there's nothing that could possibly live up to them.

Half Life 2. Games ARE capable of meeting and even exceeding the expectations of pretty much everybody.

To those who think they know what hardcore is, why don't you go and program you own game if you're such a hardcore gamer? This is exactly what I DO, and frankly I find the concerns that have been expressed about casual vs. hardcore and the "meaning" of TES to be ridiculous. If you think the current game market is too casual, then pull out your NES and play nothing but Battletoads til your fingers bleed.
No one is forcing you to fast travel.
No one is forcing you to play every questline on one character.
No one is stopping you from sliding that "difficulty" meter wherever you think it should be, anytime you want!
Granted, the character creation system in Oblivion was pretty wacked, and I agree that Morrowind's deeper and more complex system was better. However, I think that Bethesda realizes that as well, and I think they are going forward with this very different system to make it just as intuitive as Morrowind, while being easy and flexible at the same time. (Face it. All developers want creation, and specifically character creation, to be easier. If you think that something is "hardcore" because it was harder to make stuff then you're just stupid. The term you're looking for is "old", and if you don't believe me then take a look at the progression of DnD character creation.)
Judging from past TES experience and Bethesda interviews/ articles, the "meaning" of TES has always been to let people create a unique character that develops over time depending on choices they make and actions they take, and more importantly to let the world RESPOND to that character, those choices, and their actions. It has never tried and probably never will try to be a game about trial and error, knowing where/ what stuff is, creating a perfect character, catering to a certain market, or multiplayer. (But here's hoping for that multiplayer!)

[Spiney]

Sorry if my pun offended you. Though, as much as a "Hardcore mode" would suite what we want, it's the fact that Bethesda are still catering for those who aren't playing the game for what the previous titles truly stood for. Why can't we get what we actually wanted?

I could have sworn I just replied to this...
Money. There are lots of us who didn't get into the series until Oblivion for whatever reason (lifestyle, age etc) and to whom the previous games might not appeal. For this exact reason I cannot comment upon the previous games (I'm not saying I won't give Morrowind a go, but I haven't yet)

Well you have to consider the vast majority of us that first played Morrowind, then played Oblivion, to which they still liked, but missed out on the things that really made the game for them in Oblivion.

No one is forcing you to fast travel.
No one is forcing you to play every questline on one character.
No one is stopping you from sliding that "difficulty" meter wherever you think it should be, anytime you want!

I'll just reply to this part.

It's not that we're not being forced or stopped, it's just that when we're forced to circumvent features to try and improve the experience for ourselves, you know that the game is missing something, that something special. Yes no-one is forcing you to use fast travel, but it's also a pain to go everywhere by foot or horse. Morrowind had it's travel network, and made travelling that much more immersive. And the difficulty has always been an issue in ES games, either making it pointlessly hard or easy anywhere from the center.

[Spyger]

No one is forcing you to fast travel.
No one is forcing you to play every questline on one character.
No one is stopping you from sliding that "difficulty" meter wherever you think it should be, anytime you want!

I'll just reply to this part.

It's not that we're not being forced or stopped, it's just that when we're forced to circumvent features to try and improve the experience for ourselves, you know that the game is missing something, that something special. Yes no-one is forcing you to use fast travel, but it's also a pain to go everywhere by foot or horse. Morrowind had it's travel network, and made travelling that much more immersive. And the difficulty has always been an issue in ES games, either making it pointlessly hard or easy anywhere from the center.

THANK YOU. That actually makes sense, as apposed to just shouting something nonsensical about motion controls, old/ young people, and hardcore/ casual-ness.

And I agree that there is something special about a game in which everything just works: the difficulty is progressively more challenging and developing the player, the world is consistent and reliable while also throwing surprises at you, mechanics and physics work smoothly, no jarring glitches or interface issues, etc. Immersion is a wonderful thing.
Unfortunately, it hasn't really happened for me in TES yet. However, I think it's great that Bethesda is looking at games like Bioshock for inspiration, creating at once an easier, more natural, and more personalized character creation system, stomping bugs and exploits, and most importantly- ending the friggin freeze frame conversations.

A lot of major advances in gaming have happened since Oblivion. Mass Effect's conversations, Bioshock's atmosphere and combat, GTA4's living city and behavior engine, etc. If Bethesda can take lessons from sources like these and apply them to their already brilliant formula and world, then we are in for a hell of a game. If not, then we get a decent game with dragons and awesome music!

[Feather]

well i don't know if you misunderstood the point i was trying to make so i'll clarify.

i'm not upset that i CAN do everything on 1 character in oblivion, i'm disappointed that there seems to be no interconnection between quests in oblivion compared to morrowind. logic should dictate that some sort of conflict should happen between major factions, to make it dynamic. it kind of kills the immersion factor when you can do all sorts of great things but everyone outside the immediately involved npcs are ignorant to it. there's no recognition. and at the same time, i disdain the downright brutality that morrowind was happy to push out. i bring up "casual" and "hardcore" not to throw around such silly terms, but to generalize traits and trends. because most so-called casuals can get a fine kick out of a game without it practically patronizing them.

when it comes down to it, Role-Playing Games are about immersion. Never being recognized for your actions between factions breaks immersion, especially when it seems like a huge deal what you did. fast travel was already sufficiently covered.

i'd also like to point out that i do not consider Morrowind the better game either. both 3 and 4 have their strengths. in fact there's a great many things i despise about Morrowind (which is why i've clocked a great many more hours into Oblivion even though i've had morrowind longer). I just hope that they take what these two games did best and put them toward Skyrim. so far i have seen much of this in the interviews and articles. It seems like they really want to make the world believable and immersive, and as such i hope that they go the extra mile to make the major questing arcs feel important and long-reaching. rather than anti-climatic and very much closed off behind giant walls.

i'm sure i'll enjoy the game regardless, but it would be nice to see the depth of morrowind in story/questing combined with oblivion's friendliness. i just want to feel the consequences of my actions. what's the point of playing a role when no matter what you do, the result always feels the same?

[River]

Just saw this thought it would sum up some peoples worries! Quite funny! lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mABmZETHaRE

[River]

Looks like we might have some sort of auto aim/targeting system! Not sure I approve, hopefully can switch it off if we want!

[Chalk-heart]

Well you have to consider the vast majority of us that first played Morrowind, then played Oblivion, to which they still liked, but missed out on the things that really made the game for them in Oblivion.

That's fair enough, and the arguments for its questline being better and more immersive seem convincing, but I think I'll probably wait until Skyrim and see if they've managed to pull it in because the graphics... weeell. I have aesthetics issues XD
And I am hopeful that they will bring in the more immersive questing - it would seem the only logical thing to do given the fan feedback on the Oblivion questline. I assume this is one of the things you are on about being missing from Oblivion?

[Mattbott]

skyrim will have updated graphics and physics seen in oblivion and the depth of plotlines and atmosphere seen in morrowind

it will be awesome

[Spiney]

skyrim will have updated graphics and physics seen in oblivion and the depth of plotlines and atmosphere seen in morrowind

it will be awesome

That is based on what?

That's fair enough, and the arguments for its questline being better and more immersive seem convincing, but I think I'll probably wait until Skyrim and see if they've managed to pull it in because the graphics... weeell. I have aesthetics issues XD
And I am hopeful that they will bring in the more immersive questing - it would seem the only logical thing to do given the fan feedback on the Oblivion questline. I assume this is one of the things you are on about being missing from Oblivion?

Yeah, the immersive quests were quite something in Morrowind. Especially how Guild quest lines tie together, same with the houses. You felt like you were in a world where things, important things were happening. And something this, combined in with the AI system (updated as well) from Oblivion, would make quite the experience.

[Mattbott]

skyrim will have updated graphics and physics seen in oblivion and the depth of plotlines and atmosphere seen in morrowind

it will be awesome

That is based on what?

two things

i feel it in my gold fillings and

reasonable well founded optimism, in that the graphics are hardly going to be worse, and i think they have the fan base enlarged to allow a less modular (or casual gamer friendly) approach to the plotlines than we saw in Oblivion. The shallow plotlines and overly zealous levelling of Oblivion have been by far the biggest gripes from Oblivion fans so I think it's a safe bet that these will be addressed in Skyrim

games developers are very lucky these days cos there are many sites like this one which give them advice on how to make more money on their next game. Opinions differ but i think a concensus can be reached pretty easily as to what was wrong with the last one and what brilliant things can be added to the series. Not many industries have this level of constructive (and interactive) criticism

[azuarc]

Let me try to put this simply:

The world in Morrowind was superior to that of Oblivion.
The game mechanics on Oblivion were superior to that of Morrowind.
There are a few troubled aspects (game menus, finer points on leveling and character design) that neither game had quite right.

If they can take the world-building of Morrowind, the physical game constructs that are at least as good as Oblivion, and patch over the parts of each that were a bit lacking, we'll have one hell of a game.



I honestly don't care if a game designer does things to appeal to a broader market so long as it still makes for a better game. I loved Morrowind for what it was, but I can't argue that there were times where you determined what you could or could not do based solely on trial-and-error and how many times you had to press the Load button. I think Morrowind had a lot of things right, and there were a few places where Oblivion had regressed, but mostly it was in terms of cool factor. Saying that fast travel somehow makes the game less immersive or less hardcore just sounds ridiculous to me -- if you don't like it the way it was designed, then only fast travel from town to town (or to select specific locations if you want to emulate an Intervention spell.) I really don't care that I don't have separate pauldrons for my character to wear. Lack of crucial choices? Yeah, that's perfectly legitimate. However, most of the other concerns I hear about how Bethesda is softening up the game just sound completely stupid to me.

[Symphonic]

It's sad to see people that will be ruining their enjoyment of the game because of preconceived notions that something was tailored to casuals, or something isn't how it's supposed to be, etc. My recommendation is to not dwell on anything in particular, and just enjoy the game as a whole. While many had some specific nitpicks on Oblivion, I don't think I've seen anyone say that they outright hated it. Have faith that Bethesda will craft a game that will be fantastic as a whole, despite and nitpicky issues you might have.

I'm not speaking of anyone in particular, I just have a few friends, and a few others I know online, that will genuinely stop liking a game because it didn't have something a predecessor had, or some other from a chain of not particularly impactful issues.

[Sznax]

Let me try to put this simply:

The world in Morrowind was superior to that of Oblivion.
The game mechanics on Oblivion were superior to that of Morrowind.
There are a few troubled aspects (game menus, finer points on leveling and character design) that neither game had quite right.

If they can take the world-building of Morrowind, the physical game constructs that are at least as good as Oblivion, and patch over the parts of each that were a bit lacking, we'll have one hell of a game.

I'm completely on your side there.

[Kestral]

You gotta admit, this guys worries are well held. Basically, everything every fan didn't want (fast travel, less skills, etc), did happen. And everything suited for the Friday afternoon player has been incorporated into the game.

All I see is a ton of hype being built up, and I'm not buying it. I'll still buy the game, though I don't expect it to be worth what I pay.

Sights are centered.

To begin with, what the crap do you mean "every fan?" I've only seen like, four people saying that they don't want Fast Travel in my entire 3 years experience here. What's more, I never heard much complaining about less skills, only that the skills assimilated into one didn't make sense. (Blunt => Axes for example) Yes, there was complaining about how enchanting wasn't a skill anymore in Oblivion, but even that is making a return.

You're going this game for yourself. While all of the kids are gawking at the next screenshot released and hanging off of every word said, you're putting some shades on, leaning against the wall, and looking the other way. You're being a hipster scoffing at something for being mainstream, giving yourself the idea that this will be a terrible game, despite the fact that you haven't even seen gameplay for it.

The Elder Scrolls isn't Morrowind, nor is it Daggerfall or Arena. It isn't even in Oblivion or Skyrim. It's just the Elder Scrolls, and with time things change. People anticipate the next title in the series being the last game with a "2" attached on the end. You're expect Morrowind 2 with Oblivion, and now lost all hope in the entire series because you did so. If you were introduced to the series via Oblivion, you're thinking after playing Morrowind or any other ES game not Oblivion, you call it crap and rob yourself of any hope in the entire series.

It's detrimental behavior. Series change, and "hardcore" is thrown around so much now it has lost all meaning whatsoever. You're expecting something the entire industry has evolved from, relishing over the fossils of yore. If you like hardcore games, awesome, they're great. But "mainstream" and "hardcore" are so watered down in terms of games today, and all value was lost around people started to get sick of Oblivion; like admiring the Last Supper and then, after a few minutes, denouncing it because the wall is degrading.

[jakeuh_hates_dunmer]

You gotta admit, this guys worries are well held. Basically, everything every fan didn't want (fast travel, less skills, etc), did happen. And everything suited for the Friday afternoon player has been incorporated into the game.

All I see is a ton of hype being built up, and I'm not buying it. I'll still buy the game, though I don't expect it to be worth what I pay.

Sights are centered.

To begin with, what the crap do you mean "every fan?" I've only seen like, four people saying that they don't want Fast Travel in my entire 3 years experience here. What's more, I never heard much complaining about less skills, only that the skills assimilated into one didn't make sense. (Blunt => Axes for example) Yes, there was complaining about how enchanting wasn't a skill anymore in Oblivion, but even that is making a return.

You're going this game for yourself. While all of the kids are gawking at the next screenshot released and hanging off of every word said, you're putting some shades on, leaning against the wall, and looking the other way. You're being a hipster scoffing at something for being mainstream, giving yourself the idea that this will be a terrible game, despite the fact that you haven't even seen gameplay for it.

The Elder Scrolls isn't Morrowind, nor is it Daggerfall or Arena. It isn't even in Oblivion or Skyrim. It's just the Elder Scrolls, and with time things change. People anticipate the next title in the series being the last game with a "2" attached on the end. You're expect Morrowind 2 with Oblivion, and now lost all hope in the entire series because you did so. If you were introduced to the series via Oblivion, you're thinking after playing Morrowind or any other ES game not Oblivion, you call it crap and rob yourself of any hope in the entire series.

It's detrimental behavior. Series change, and "hardcore" is thrown around so much now it has lost all meaning whatsoever. You're expecting something the entire industry has evolved from, relishing over the fossils of yore. If you like hardcore games, awesome, they're great. But "mainstream" and "hardcore" are so watered down in terms of games today, and all value was lost around people started to get sick of Oblivion; like admiring the Last Supper and then, after a few minutes, denouncing it because the wall is degrading.

Kestral, you just win
this is my most favorite post i've seen in awhile,
I hope you know you made my night.

[Lunarsweets]

I agree, partly. Yes, 'hardcore' mode has become mainstreamed. We all want to see a 'hardcore' mode because if offers a bit of realism and challenge. But that isn't what ES fans want. You see, we are a stubborn kind. We want what we had. Changes make us unhappy, and they always will. I can honestly say that I enjoyed playing Oblivion more than Morrowind because things were easier. I didn't care that there was fast travel, or leveled enemies. I still found challenges... and I still had fun.

But, I cannot say that I want ES to be any more 'dumbed down' than it has gotten. Kestral, in all of your presidential glory, have to admit that Oblivion, while hard, was significantly easier than Morrowind. Bethesda made things easier. And to use a cliche, more casual. And you know what? Bring on the flame. ES is NOT a casual gaming series. You can't sit down for half an hour every day and play for a bit. There is a reason Bethesda puts work into the lore it weaves. They want every player to see it. To know. That is why Bioware and Ubisoft created their Codex(i?). They wanted the player to know what they could do. They wanted the player to be completely immersed. And I have to say, Morrowind did this ten times better than Oblivion.

So, yes. I would be mad if Bethesda lost its touch. The magic behind its storytelling and creativity. I believe that if they can recreate the balance they went for with Oblivion, I will be happy. And with the knowledge I have, I am not happy.

Also: The server misses you, Kestral.

[Kestral]

I agree, partly. Yes, 'hardcore' mode has become mainstreamed. We all want to see a 'hardcore' mode because if offers a bit of realism and challenge. But that isn't what ES fans want. You see, we are a stubborn kind. We want what we had. Changes make us unhappy, and they always will. I can honestly say that I enjoyed playing Oblivion more than Morrowind because things were easier. I didn't care that there was fast travel, or leveled enemies. I still found challenges... and I still had fun.

But, I cannot say that I want ES to be any more 'dumbed down' than it has gotten. Kestral, in all of your presidential glory, have to admit that Oblivion, while hard, was significantly easier than Morrowind. Bethesda made things easier. And to use a cliche, more casual. And you know what? Bring on the flame. ES is NOT a casual gaming series. You can't sit down for half an hour every day and play for a bit. There is a reason Bethesda puts work into the lore it weaves. They want every player to see it. To know. That is why Bioware and Ubisoft created their Codex(i?). They wanted the player to know what they could do. They wanted the player to be completely immersed. And I have to say, Morrowind did this ten times better than Oblivion.

So, yes. I would be mad if Bethesda lost its touch. The magic behind its storytelling and creativity. I believe that if they can recreate the balance they went for with Oblivion, I will be happy. And with the knowledge I have, I am not happy.

Also: The server misses you, Kestral.

Morrowind was difficult largely in part because of its shortfalls. The directions for example. "Exit via the main road and take the right turn at the fork into Molag Mar. When you find an ash pit, look for a tree by some boulders and go beyond the hills behind it to the location." In Oblivion, "Here, I'll mark it on your map." *Puts mark there* "Now, go follow the arrow and you're good!"

I had no problem with the arrow, and still today see no problem with it. It should be mandated in every game. Do people in Dead Space complain about your magical path-finding abilities when you click the right stick? No! Its goddamn essential. If I told you go to find this dungeon north of Chorrol and off of this road, you'd be hard pressed to find it. Remember the KotN quest where you had to find the shrines? How long did that take you? Even in one of the most "hardcore" (by today's definition) games of the series, Daggerfall, told you where to go, conveniently.

Fast Travel was also just great. Morrowind was the only game that didn't have it, and it should have. Mark and Recall (And intervention) can only go so far, but when you want to get to some spot in the middle of the Grazelands, you better pack up for a trip. It was neat with the Guild Guides and Silt Striders, but you could've expanded their ports o' calls and routes to better connect Vvardenfell. Maybe Silt Strider outposts in the wilderness?

Note: I disliked the leveling system in Oblivion, it did make it considerably easier. However, the points above, among others, overshadow that.

[River]

I agree, partly. Yes, 'hardcore' mode has become mainstreamed. We all want to see a 'hardcore' mode because if offers a bit of realism and challenge. But that isn't what ES fans want. You see, we are a stubborn kind. We want what we had. Changes make us unhappy, and they always will. I can honestly say that I enjoyed playing Oblivion more than Morrowind because things were easier. I didn't care that there was fast travel, or leveled enemies. I still found challenges... and I still had fun.

But, I cannot say that I want ES to be any more 'dumbed down' than it has gotten. Kestral, in all of your presidential glory, have to admit that Oblivion, while hard, was significantly easier than Morrowind. Bethesda made things easier. And to use a cliche, more casual. And you know what? Bring on the flame. ES is NOT a casual gaming series. You can't sit down for half an hour every day and play for a bit. There is a reason Bethesda puts work into the lore it weaves. They want every player to see it. To know. That is why Bioware and Ubisoft created their Codex(i?). They wanted the player to know what they could do. They wanted the player to be completely immersed. And I have to say, Morrowind did this ten times better than Oblivion.

So, yes. I would be mad if Bethesda lost its touch. The magic behind its storytelling and creativity. I believe that if they can recreate the balance they went for with Oblivion, I will be happy. And with the knowledge I have, I am not happy.

Also: The server misses you, Kestral.

Just thought I'd offer my opinions. I think saying this is "not what ES fans want" is wrong. Fans are fans no matter how long they they have followed the ES and obviously the game is being made for the majority of fans, even if they are not the hardcore fan base. Also Casual gamer always used to mean someone who fits games in around there life rather than hardcore gamers fitting life around there games. I would class myself as a casual gamer I'd like to play more often but I don't always have the time, But I'm into the lore, the books and scrolls and story within the game, and you can sit down for half an hour and play (sometimes thats all the time you have) It gives you that half hour of escapism! It my be that you can't get as into it in that half hour as you can when you have more time, but it doesn't mean you don't enjoy it and immerse yourself in it.

[The Tourist]

River: being a self-professed hardcore gamer has nothing to do with how much time you sink into a game.

But, as I said before (this isn't re you, River), it's daft for anyone to try to deny that the gaming industry has compartmentalised into various sub-demographics. If you were project lead in a marketting company, you'd certainly recognise their existence - or you wouldn't make any money. Unless the IP was uber-niche, however, you'd never draw attention to any descriptive terms (they'd be implied and inferred in the campaign).

Regarding this thread (and this is just an observation, not a request): am I the only one of the mind that it should be locked now, on account of everything that could be said has been said? Right now, it's just going round in rather unproductive circles.

Morrowind was Morrowind.
Oblivion was [unfortunately!] Oblivion.
Skyrim will be Skyrim.

And there's nothing any of us can do about any of them, past, present or future.

[Chalk-heart]

Also Casual gamer always used to mean someone who fits games in around there life rather than hardcore gamers fitting life around there games. I would class myself as a casual gamer I'd like to play more often but I don't always have the time, But I'm into the lore, the books and scrolls and story within the game, and you can sit down for half an hour and play (sometimes thats all the time you have) It gives you that half hour of escapism! It my be that you can't get as into it in that half hour as you can when you have more time, but it doesn't mean you don't enjoy it and immerse yourself in it.

That's exactly how I feel. You put it so well
I'm sick right now so should be having that "more time" that we're always wanting but I went and scratched the disc...
So now I'm worried that I'll go ahead and scratch Skyrim when I get it. >.<