Perks Baby!

[Cygnus]

Anyone who has played one of the Bethesda-released Fallout games is familiar with the 'Perks' part of leveling. For those who are not familiar, a perk is chosen while leveling and it alters the pc. Perks could affect skills, attributes, health, magic, fatigue, or just about anything imaginable. Some perks are only available when a certain mark in level, skill, or attribute has been acheived.

The purpose of this topic is to draw from lore or our own twisted grey matter and come up with some possible perks that could be used in skyrim.

My first perk would be the Bittercup perk, which could be taken once and would raise your highest attribute by 20 points and lower your worst attribute by 20 points.

[Master of Puppets]

No. No. No. No. No. No.

Perks have always been a Fallout thing. Just because something was in Fallout 3 doesn't mean it must be in Skyrim.

Spoiler:

NEVER!

[Vinja]

No. No. No. No. No. No.

Perks have always been a Fallout thing. Just because something was in Fallout 3 doesn't mean it must be in Skyrim.

Spoiler:

NEVER!

agreed i was just about to type that but you beat me to it, Elder scrolls is it's own game and i think the level up system should stay as it is, these are two completely different game and they both work, the leveling system is what makes these games unique.

[Cygnus]

Right. Not asking for how you feel about perks, just asking for ideas for perks if they were to be included. I am just creating a perks topic to use lore and a little creativity to share some ideas. But writing 'no' a bunch of times works too.

[Master of Puppets]

Right. Not asking for how you feel about perks, just asking for ideas for perks if they were to be included. I am just creating a perks topic to use lore and a little creativity to share some ideas. But writing 'no' a bunch of times works too.

Indeed it does. Anyways, I apparently missed the point of the topic. Ah well, I shall now crawl back into my little hovel that rests on the bank of Lake Rumare.

[Calloway_James]

Okay, switch out 'perks' with the term 'level-based abilities' such as evasive flipping, reparing items up to 125%, and the ability to run while sneaking without being detected (Known as 'Silent Running' in Fallout, first seen in Oblivion far before it was purchased by Bethesda) and list off some ideas for 'level-based abilities' you have. Hypothetically, these abilities would occur maybe every 10 levels rather than every 25 to reward development. Jeez people...

I'll start:

Marksman - I'd love to have an ability where you can use low-level, expendable daggers as projectiles (while blocking, hold attack to rear-back your arm and zoom in, release attack to launch weapon).

Next?

[Generalno1]

Maybe something better for weapon abilities. Something that doesn't just give you another attack "I can swing it this way too? oh my god!"

[Argonanza]

Fists of Fury - You get a 1% chance to deal an elemental punch when fighting with your fists. Element is selected randomly.

[TheoC]

I liked perks in Fallout but I hope they aren't in Skyrim.

Mostly because I always spend about 20 minutes trying to decide which one to pick and it bores me.

[Veck]

Powers maybe? Or perks could only be available from certain sources, rather than every time you level up.

[Symphonic]

I think the tiered bonuses in Oblivion (the bonuses you get at 25-skill increments) were as close to "Perks" as we really need to get. For example, we have in Sneak: at 25, your Sneak attack modifier increases; at 50, your boots no longer affect your sneaking; at 75, your movement speed no longer affects your sneaking; at 100, your Sneak attacks ignore armor.

What I would like to see, however, is more consistently interesting bonuses and specials. I found the melee bonuses cumbersome to use (when trying to do the disarm, half the time, my power attack ended up missing because I had turned too much), and the magic ones didn't have any flavour. They only served to act as a gate to the potency of spells.

I would prefer to have spell effect types limited by your proficiency in that magic. For example, to me, Soul Trap seems like it would be a very advanced (and probably not widely taught in Oblivion's case, given its Necromantic implications story-wise) Mysticism spell, and as one of the few spells that doesn't see a magnitude increase at higher levels, it would make more sense to be only learnable as a Journeyman or Expert Mysticist.

[Ethelred]

I agree, spell effects should be limited by skill level. Taking destruction for example, elemental damage should be low level, straight health damage and skill damage low/mid, attribute damage mid/high, and so on.

I detest the power attack method of applying special strike types too - some sort of Street Fighter-esque combination of input commands seems to be in order.

And back on topic - no perks. They are a Fallout staple, not an Elder Scrolls one. TES already has the excellent major/minor powers, which are more than enough. I particularly liked the renown requirements of the Heaven stones - although a more organic and less arbitrary method would be nice.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Agreed, power attacks are messed up.
Backwards never works unless you treadmill against a wall, no use in open spaces really, and forwards always lunges past. :\
Only way I use them; 1-2-Circle behind+Power Attack thing for a chance to disarm. Plus it looks badass.

For changing spell effects to certain skill levels; Is that not just a different form of the same thing?
It's basically still "Requires 25/50/75/100 *magic class*".
The perks on magic could be removed altogether, really, the magicka decrease is the best thing about levelling them anyway.

The best layout of perks, imo, is Armorer.
Apart from 25, (Basically a lesser form of the master) each perk is awesome.

I'd hope/expect most of the pointless or annoying perks would be replaced by something completely new, rather than a remix of what's already been done in Oblivion.

[Symphonic]

For changing spell effects to certain skill levels; Is that not just a different form of the same thing?
It's basically still "Requires 25/50/75/100 *magic class*".
The perks on magic could be removed altogether, really, the magicka decrease is the best thing about levelling them anyway.

Currently, the magic system's "perks" only serve as a gate on the potency of spells. That is to say, even as a Novice of any given magic school you can use any spell in that school, given it's weak enough. (Low duration, low magnitude, etc.) Raising your skill to Apprentice, Journeyman, etc. simply allows you to make those spells stronger, at certain thresholds. (Higher damage, wider range, etc.)

I was more leaning to the idea (as Ethelred gathered and agreed) that specific spell effects would be limited based on your level. I'll toss out a rough map as to what I mean:

Alteration:
Novice - Shield; Apprentice - Feather, Water Breathing; Expert - Element Shields/Water Walking; Master - Burden
Obviously, each tier of Alteration would increase your unlocking magnitude, as it works currently.

Conjuration:
Novice - Conjure Weapon; Apprentice - Conjure Armor; Expert - Turn Undead; Master - Reanimate
In Conjuration, Summon spells would interspersed between the levels, with stronger creatures as your conjuration skill increases, as it is now.

Destruction:
Novice - Elements; Apprentice - Drain Spells; Expert - Disintegrate Weapons/Armor; Master - Damage Spells
I could also see having certain combinations of elements and/or spell natures (AoE, duration, etc) being tier-limited as well.

Illusion:
Novice - Light/Nighteye; Apprentice - Charm/Rally/Calm; Expert - Demoralize/Frenzy/Chameleon; Master - Command/Invisibility

Mysticism:
Novice - Detect Life/Telekinesis; Apprentice - Dispel/Spell Absorption; Expert - Reflect Magic/Damage; Master - Soul Trap

Restoration:
Novice - Restore; Apprentice - Cure; Expert - Fortify; Master - Absorb


So, as an example, if you wanted to cast a Soul Trap spell, of any magnitude, you'd need to be a Master of Mysticism. If you wanted to cast a Frenzy Spell, you'd need to be at least an Expert in Illusion.

The reason I propose this is because, frankly, I feel like the magic schools function is a sort of boring manner right now, and I find it silly that anyone can cast any spell they want, if it's weak enough. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but certain spells, like Soul Trap that I keep going back to, work the same regardless of your skill level - the only thing that changes is the duration.

[Ajax]

For changing spell effects to certain skill levels; Is that not just a different form of the same thing?
It's basically still "Requires 25/50/75/100 *magic class*".
The perks on magic could be removed altogether, really, the magicka decrease is the best thing about levelling them anyway.

Currently, the magic system's "perks" only serve as a gate on the potency of spells. That is to say, even as a Novice of any given magic school you can use any spell in that school, given it's weak enough. (Low duration, low magnitude, etc.) Raising your skill to Apprentice, Journeyman, etc. simply allows you to make those spells stronger, at certain thresholds. (Higher damage, wider range, etc.)

I was more leaning to the idea (as Ethelred gathered and agreed) that specific spell effects would be limited based on your level. I'll toss out a rough map as to what I mean:

Alteration:
Novice - Shield; Apprentice - Feather, Water Breathing; Expert - Element Shields/Water Walking; Master - Burden
Obviously, each tier of Alteration would increase your unlocking magnitude, as it works currently.

Conjuration:
Novice - Conjure Weapon; Apprentice - Conjure Armor; Expert - Turn Undead; Master - Reanimate
In Conjuration, Summon spells would interspersed between the levels, with stronger creatures as your conjuration skill increases, as it is now.

Destruction:
Novice - Elements; Apprentice - Drain Spells; Expert - Disintegrate Weapons/Armor; Master - Damage Spells
I could also see having certain combinations of elements and/or spell natures (AoE, duration, etc) being tier-limited as well.

Illusion:
Novice - Light/Nighteye; Apprentice - Charm/Rally/Calm; Expert - Demoralize/Frenzy/Chameleon; Master - Command/Invisibility

Mysticism:
Novice - Detect Life/Telekinesis; Apprentice - Dispel/Spell Absorption; Expert - Reflect Magic/Damage; Master - Soul Trap

Restoration:
Novice - Restore; Apprentice - Cure; Expert - Fortify; Master - Absorb


So, as an example, if you wanted to cast a Soul Trap spell, of any magnitude, you'd need to be a Master of Mysticism. If you wanted to cast a Frenzy Spell, you'd need to be at least an Expert in Illusion.

The reason I propose this is because, frankly, I feel like the magic schools function is a sort of boring manner right now, and I find it silly that anyone can cast any spell they want, if it's weak enough. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but certain spells, like Soul Trap that I keep going back to, work the same regardless of your skill level - the only thing that changes is the duration.

That would be interesting, and feel more rewarding for Mages. But I think the last unlock should come at Expert, I think Master may be too long to wait for certain skills.

[Symphonic]

That's very true, especially since it's very easy to finish the game without ever mastering certain skills. Perhaps, what I listed as "Novice" spells could be spells that you start with, then the others could all shift down a level from there.

[Spiney]

No perks. Because:

A) A fallout thing
B) Immersion Breaker
C) Usually very imbalanced, ergo: Some will be picked over others because they're much more powerful
D) Don't fit into a fantasy universe

[The Dog Whisperer]

I get what you meant, I'm just saying that it's basically a reiteration of the 'gate' system.
You shouldn't be limiting anything, none of the other skills do that, their perks are just bonuses.
You can't not use certain weapons or armour should your blade/blunt/marksman or light/heavy armour skill be too low.
You can't not make certain potions should your alchemy be too low, granted it's tougher the less effects you have with each ingredient.
The only thing I can think of right now that's limited is not being able to repair magical equipment unless you have fifty armorer. (And that was always the bane of that skill, my original reason for training it at all- though I'm glad I did, it's a favourite now ;P)
If they can fit in some perks that are just bonuses, not limiting things, then I'd like that.
But I can't think of any, hence I suggested removing their perks.
Spells are limited by their magicka cost already, if you don't want me to cast Beast of Burden at level one then make it cost more magicka or make it difficult to get.
I will get enough as I raise my intelligence and alteration, former for more magicka, latter for less magicka cost.
When I've raised either, one OR the other, sufficiently I should be able to cast the spell.
Even if I have enough to cast it with just 20 alteration.

[Symphonic]

Right, but it's still much different than it works now. I think it's a bit flavourless and boring that you can cast whatever you want, right off the start. Sure, you're right, you can't cast Beast of Burden unless you have enough Magicka or enough skill, but you can still cast Feather or Pack Mule just fine.

To go with what I was propose, I think "lower" level effects should naturally improve over time, as other spell effects are unlocking at certain skill levels. I mean, why do you have to learn a completely different spell to have a better Feather spell, or Shield spell? Theoretically, shouldn't your own Shield spell just naturally improve over time?

None of the other skill limit it, you're right...maybe they should, to some extent? I mean, take swords for example. It may not make sense to have a skill limitation on a weapon, but you could feasibly reduce the damage of it (moreso than having a low skill to begin with would) because you "have no idea how to use it properly". Obviously this would apply more to unique weapons, like a heavily curved sword, or even a Katana. (Katana technique is quite different from, say, broadsword technique or claymore technique, for example.)

I just always found reaching a new tier of magic anti-climactic compared to the others. I was always psyched when I got a new level of sneak and now my boots don't matter, or even getting Speechcraft up allowed me to turn the wheel to a more favourable position. At the very least, those were dynamic additions to gameplay. When you get Magic schools to Journeyman, Expert, etc. "Oh, I can use the same spell but a bit stronger. Awesome..."

[Rat Kiosk]

All good points, I don't want to see perks either.

I would like to see traits though as this will:

A: Encourage more playthroughs
B: Makes your character more.... Special

One I thought of was 'Two Right Hands' - You can use two weapons but you do 33% less damage with all weapons.
'Pack Mule' - You can carry 50% more but you run 25% slower
'Light and Quick' - You run 25% faster but carry 50% less
'Power before Speed' - Power attacks do twice as much damage but ordinary attacks are 30% slower
'Speed before Power' - Power attacks do half as much damage and ordinary attacks are 30% faster (power attacks can still break through a block)

I really want dual wielding. I think it would work too. Hold right trigger to power attack, hold left trigger to block.

Oh and I know the names of the traits are bad

[The Dog Whisperer]

Sure, you're right, you can't cast Beast of Burden unless you have enough Magicka or enough skill, but you can still cast Feather or Pack Mule just fine.

But I think that just the magicka cost should be enough to limit things.
When you get to the higher spells pure intelligence (i.e. Magicka) isn't enough to cast the spells easily. As in without 75%+ magicka cost.
You need a decent skill level aswell, to put the spell into an easy to use range.

The evolving spell idea is cool, maybe for each of your starter spells that you get per major classes.
But I'd also like to have access to some non-levelling spells, too.
1; Because one hundred points of shock damage is a waste of magicka on a wolf..
2; If I've a multi effect spell, and it 'levels' then I might not be able to cast it, because the magicka cost would be too big.

Limiting weapons per your skill in them, sounds like it makes sense, but it's too like the 'levelling loot' thing in Oblivion. Which is something I don't like, if I get a Daedric longsword at level three I wanna use it, if it's overpowered make me not able to get it by making it fricking hard to get to.
Then the only one's who can get it are the one's who are strong enough for it to be suited to them.

I admit there's no 'whoop-de-doo' when you go up a class in the magic skills, but I don't level them for that, I level them for lower magicka cost; On mages, so that I can use bigger spells, and on non-mages, so that I don't need to increase my intelligence (Which I won't need for that build) to be able to cast them.
I also think that the changing of the 'gate' system, to limiting spell effects, wouldn't bring ecstatic jubilance either, but more annoyance at the fact that you couldn't use soul trap for to recharge your enchanted warhammer, and now you need to level mysticism just for a Soultrap for 5 secs on touch spell..

I know what you're saying makes sense, and it could very well be in the game. I'm just saying that I wouldn't prefer it to some other options.

I'm so sick of typing magicka. >_>

[Cygnus]

now that perks have been confirmed, i figured it was time to cast 'reanimate' on my baby (I'm emotionally attached to this thread)

The Deerhunter: +25% damage against wild game
Bull-in-a-Limeware-Shop: Improved bartering (high strength requirement for intimidation)
Mead Connoisseur: Improved benefits from alcoholic beverages
Trail Tailor: Can fabricate clothes/armor from animal hides
Necromance-her: Less magicka-cost to reanimate female NPCs
I See Undead People: Small chance a humanoid undead will offer a quest (should be possible with dynamic quest system)
Star Pupil: Master trainers can be accessed at any skill level (does not avoid quests master trainers may require)
Prolonged Labor: Choose a second birthsign's effects (officially still have just the first birthsign)

[Mr. Mischief]

now that perks have been confirmed, i figured it was time to cast 'reanimate' on my baby (I'm emotionally attached to this thread)

The Deerhunter: +25% damage against wild game
Bull-in-a-Limeware-Shop: Improved bartering (high strength requirement for intimidation)
Mead Connoisseur: Improved benefits from alcoholic beverages
Trail Tailor: Can fabricate clothes/armor from animal hides
Necromance-her: Less magicka-cost to reanimate female NPCs
I See Undead People: Small chance a humanoid undead will offer a quest (should be possible with dynamic quest system)
Star Pupil: Master trainers can be accessed at any skill level (does not avoid quests master trainers may require)
Prolonged Labor: Choose a second birthsign's effects (officially still have just the first birthsign)

These are amazing and hilarious


And I would like to see something that will increase short blade or dagger attacks, or maybe increase their sneak attack multiplier. Especially if the blade skills aren't separated.

[ch00_bakka]

Maybe perks that separate the short and long blades or blunt weapons and axes? Necromancy vs Daedra summoning maybe? Fire/frost/shock? Unarmored (as a perk of alteration maybe? Constant effect shield spell or something?)? The ability never to break a lock pick? Maybe (if we get levitation) there'll be an alteration perk that'll let us fly the whole time? Enchanting without soul gems (now that enchanting is confirmed as a skill)? Instant-kill sneak attacks? Crossbows vs regular bows vs throwing weapons (if we get the crossbows and throwing weapons that is)?

[Ethelred]

The Deerhunter: +25% damage against wild game
Bull-in-a-Limeware-Shop: Improved bartering (high strength requirement for intimidation)
Mead Connoisseur: Improved benefits from alcoholic beverages
Trail Tailor: Can fabricate clothes/armor from animal hides
Necromance-her: Less magicka-cost to reanimate female NPCs
I See Undead People: Small chance a humanoid undead will offer a quest (should be possible with dynamic quest system)
Star Pupil: Master trainers can be accessed at any skill level (does not avoid quests master trainers may require)
Prolonged Labor: Choose a second birthsign's effects (officially still have just the first birthsign)

Nice ideas, but the names are what really concerns me about the influence of Fallout on TES - the funny names don't fit with the seriousness of the series in general.