So my thread on Children has been generating some good conversation, so I got to thinking: what OTHER semi-controversial game elements has Bethesda been avoiding? Adult content! Now I'm not talking fullblown CG hentai here (although if that's what you want to see, more power to you I guess). There's a lot of content in games these days that might cause small children to ask their parents awkward questions. Romances, for example! Romances are all the rage in RPG gaming these days. Whether they're integral to the main plot, like Aeris in Final Fantasy VII, optional side quests and extra flavour for role players, like the romances in Mass Effect, or even serious headaches, like Fable's family raising, it seems like you NEED some kind of romance system to be taken seriously these days. Then there's the naughtier bits- you know what I'm talking about. Sex is hardly new in video games (hell, when was the last time you saw a game which DIDN'T feature scantily clad women?), and while many act like it's still a niche subject reserved for seedy Japanese games you can only buy online, the fact is it's been mainstreamed for quite some time. It's been almost a decade since GTA first let us beat a hooker to death with a baseball bat. God of War, Duke Nukem, Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, all feature explicit adult situations, and the number of titles which base their appeal mostly or entirely on fanservice is too large to count (Bayonetta, DoA, Rumble Roses, etc). Fallout 3/NV could be seen as a test case for adult content in a Bethesda game; both feature almost as much raunchy action as their predecessors, and to my knowledge, neither have thus far brought about the end of civilization. Heck, even Oblivion is full of adult content thanks to the modding community, and need I remind anyone of Morrowind and Lifts-Her-Tail?
There's really two main questions here:
1. SHOULD THERE BE ROMANCES?
Pretty straightforward. If there are, how should they be implemented? Should romances simply be part of a broader system of companion/ NPC interaction? Or should it go further, with the ability to marry- like in Mount & Blade- and maybe even raise a family- as seen in Fable?
2. SHOULD THERE BE NAUGHTY BITS?
You know what I mean. If so, how far should it go? Should it be as simple as naked bodies for stripped characters, or go as far as fullblown sex? Implied, on screen but censored (think Dragon Age), or pull the blinds, dull the speakers, by Azura that's disgusting? Finally, should adult situations be limited to romance options ("I love you, Loyal Orc Companion! Now let's get to snogging!"), or do swingers have rights, too? ("I got twenty Septims, Random Orc Dressed Like a Tramp!")
And a bonus question: assuming we see romances or adult situations in Skyrim, what sorts of relations should be available to players? Should Skyrim conform to postmodern morality and allow homosexual relationships? Should it include setups that would make a Japanese businessman blush? Please, no name calling. Homophobes and heterophobes both have the right to their opinion.
Spoiler:
Putting this in spoilers so as not to overly influence initial responses. My answers:
1. Yes, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Bethesda isn't Bioware. Bethseda works best when focusing on broad, sandbox style gameplay, they're not terribly good at creating the sort of interesting linear narratives that an ingame romance would be based on. A casual romance option, like in Mount & Blade, would be fine! A more indepth romance option would be best, but I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as rewarding as, say, the Leliana romance from DA:O. Raising a family would be kinda cool, too, but is not essential for me.
2. Sure, why not? Skyrim is for Vikings, and Vikings aren't known for restraint, ahem. New Vegas style naughtiness would be perfectly adequate and highly unlikely to cause a stir.
3. By the way... do you happen to know what the fine is here in Skyrim for necrophilia? Just asking.
i said not interested, i just don't see the appeal of having romance in video games, my fiance gets on my nerves enough as it is.
and i just dont care either way about naughty bits, i see no point in them adding tits or whatever when it will just cause alot of drama for the game most likely, not like they will add anything to the gameplay.
P.S this is just my opinion and its worth exactly what you paid for it
fancy lasers and plastic glocks are no match for a good .357 at your side kid
Let's not hide it. You love sex. Love it. If you're a male, your soldier is your best friend. And females are as shallow men. In addition to that, in the words of my very learned Marine Biology teacher, "It all goes down to sex."
So if you say that you think it's too nasty then you're a liar. If you're saying that teens play this game and shouldn't see this, I say teens see a lot worse (better?) things on a regularly and daily basis. It denies human nature to brush it under the carpet, so I'm throwing that out here first.
No shallow ones like Fable. "Here's this lady from the tavern. Keep giving her mugs of beer and you're crystal." It has to be deep and full. Just add ladies of the night for shallow relationships, like NV. Voice acted, good face creation. Men and women. Man and mer. Mer and beast.
As in tits? No, not that. If we want it, the modding community will quickly and happily facilitate that need. Take it in the way of Fable did with baby making. Hints, wink-wink-nudge-nudge say no more, things. And yes, add the family option. And make sure it also is of benefit of the player to romance, and the benefit could be anything. Perhaps this very rich lady/man can give you a nice dowry, but this poorer lady/man is nice and honest and could foster a good family.
It's sad to be bound by petty morality. But as this isn't Rapture. I'd be all for for adding the option for players to romance NPC's of the same gender. But Skyrim would be some very hot china that no store would touch if it could make a Japanese businessman blush.
Yes, I would love to have a lovely Nord wife in Skyrim. I wanted to be able to get a spouse in Oblivion, too. I would've marry that Dar-ma!
If we were able to have spouses, we could aslo get jobs. The spouses will stay in the house and do.. stuff. I don't know about naughty stuff, I don't think it'll be inlcluded, but why not!
Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.
i just don't see what it would add to the actual gameplay, fable isn't really a true comparison as in my humble opinion these two games couldn't be further apart. Fable 2 in my opinion was as much a life simulator as it was an rpg with the whole baby thing and owning land, having a trade, so on and so forth.
Whereas i see elder scrolls always as a more high fantasy grand adventure sort of game. kind of like the Conan movies with Schwarzenegger. There's just alot more things they could use the resources on in this game, More types of dungeons so they don't all feel the same, more monsters, more armor and weapons, more cities, more combat manuevers, better dialogue, more voice actors, more factions, quests, and guilds. etc
again this is just my opinion but being able to sweet talk the barmaid is pretty low on the list of things i want to do in a game :-/
fancy lasers and plastic glocks are no match for a good .357 at your side kid
Kestral wrote:Let's not hide it. You love sex. Love it. If you're a male, your soldier is your best friend. And females are as shallow men. In addition to that, in the words of my very learned Marine Biology teacher, "It all goes down to sex."
So if you say that you think it's too nasty then you're a liar. If you're saying that teens play this game and shouldn't see this, I say teens see a lot worse (better?) things on a regularly and daily basis. It denies human nature to brush it under the carpet, so I'm throwing that out here first.[/list]
Right, you took Marine Biology so that gives you knowledge over the wants and desires of everyone who has and ever will walk the face of this planet. But for those of us still in denial, or you know, have a thing called 'standards' and 'common sense' to regulate these sexual tendencies to proper place and time, I think for sake of roleplaying there's definitely that avenue for wanting to snag that beautiful Nordic chick or maybe brave some strange Argonian tail, but I'd have to agree that I personally don't really see the point in videogame romances with NPC's. I guess my natural human marine-biological tendencies long for actual human interaction than craving sex in every facet of my life, then again I could just be the exception.
Kestral wrote:Let's not hide it. You love sex. Love it. If you're a male, your soldier is your best friend. And females are as shallow men. In addition to that, in the words of my very learned Marine Biology teacher, "It all goes down to sex."
So if you say that you think it's too nasty then you're a liar. If you're saying that teens play this game and shouldn't see this, I say teens see a lot worse (better?) things on a regularly and daily basis. It denies human nature to brush it under the carpet, so I'm throwing that out here first.[/list]
Right, you took Marine Biology so that gives you knowledge over the wants and desires of everyone who has and ever will walk the face of this planet. But for those of us still in denial, or you know, have a thing called 'standards' and 'common sense' to regulate these sexual tendencies to proper place and time, I think for sake of roleplaying there's definitely that avenue for wanting to snag that beautiful Nordic chick or maybe brave some strange Argonian tail, but I'd have to agree that I personally don't really see the point in videogame romances with NPC's. I guess my natural human marine-biological tendencies long for actual human interaction than craving sex in every facet of my life, then again I could just be the exception.
It has nothing to do with Marine Biology, I mentioned the subject because he teaches me that. He isn't restricted to Biology, and what he said is applicable everywhere. He knows more than Marine Biology and Biology, and when he says it all goes down to sex he is also making a point about life, something he knows about. Standards or common sense has no relation to this, and you're just denying yourself.
I dont think there should be. Adding adult content, I think, would kind of ruin the game, and the fact that ES games where not ment to have mature content. Im no perverted person, I dont sit there and... "do stuff" to on-screen nudity, not like some kind of creepy nerd O_o
And the fact that it would take me some work to convince my parents to let me buy the game
It may not add to everyone's gameplay, but I think having the option would certainly add to mine and people like me.
I'm not talking being able to watch my character have sex with an NPC because 1) I don't want the game to be banned 2) I'm not that interested in that part 3) even if i did want to see that, there will eventually be a mod - in fact there will be a mod for that, it's unavoidable XD.
But I am talking about having an NPC that will stay at your house, or even follow you and fight for you, that has special dialogue just for you. And I'd love for my character to have children! I've resorted to pretending that "Adoring Fan" is my adopted son who's parent's had abandoned because he was so annoying. (it would be real son but i'm a nord atm).
I know you could say "just pretend" but it's not as fun. And, if your against it, it's not like you have to have your character get married - and one day you might want to play the happily married man/woman who's just trying to earn a living for his/her family, and that's made a lot easier with props in the form of NPCs.
SuperSimoholic wrote:It may not add to everyone's gameplay, but I think having the option would certainly add to mine and people like me.
I'm not talking being able to watch my character have sex with an NPC because 1) I don't want the game to be banned 2) I'm not that interested in that part 3) even if i did want to see that, there will eventually be a mod - in fact there will be a mod for that, it's unavoidable XD.
But I am talking about having an NPC that will stay at your house, or even follow you and fight for you, that has special dialogue just for you. And I'd love for my character to have children! I've resorted to pretending that "Adoring Fan" is my adopted son who's parent's had abandoned because he was so annoying. (it would be real son but i'm a nord atm).
I know you could say "just pretend" but it's not as fun. And, if your against it, it's not like you have to have your character get married - and one day you might want to play the happily married man/woman who's just trying to earn a living for his/her family, and that's made a lot easier with props in the form of NPCs.
So, romance YES, mature content NO
I agree, it would be fun to have a family in skyrim. It would add a lot to roleplay. I just dont want to see me and my in-game wife have sexy time.
I'll pass on the mature content, thanks. I don't want to be missing out on Skyrim just because everyone else wanted to see their character gettin' it on with some NPC...no offense. There's just no way in all hell my parents would let me anywhere near that game.
But the romance? I'm not really sure where I stand on the topic of just romance. It depends on how much it would add to the game, I guess...if the end result of a romance with an NPC is just a few new lines of dialogue, then, no, I'm not interested, but if it's something a little more drastic, say, moving in with them or marrying them and raising a family...yeah, I might be interested. I just wouldn't want it to be something small and unrewarding.
youre listening to killed with a brick FM Don't touch that dial, now. We're just getting started.
Romances would be an interesting Idea, but nothing Fable, where you flex long enough, and everyone will want to marry you.
And keep it clean people, i shouldn't have to delete posts.
If Bethesda could do romance and such things tastefully without detracting from the things I love about TES, then yes, I wouldn't care. Let's face it: some modder out there is just going to go ahead and create a romance (and later naughty bits) mod anyhow and people obviously eat it up. But if you play a game like TES for the roleplaying, then you also realize that, hey, relationships - be they friendships, romance, or enemies - are a part of life. How can you assume that your character isn't going to have them? As long as it's not as absurd and silly as, say, Fable, and done in a plausible and believable matter that fit in with the universe, then I wouldn't mind that aspect of the game...as long as it didn't become a huge and necessary part of the game. If it adds life, sure, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather be saving the world then picking out romantic partners.
And I would love to see Bethesda "get with modern times" (more like "all times") and go for relationships of either gender pairing. I'm of the opinion Viranus Donton's journal from Oblivion already hinted that he was homosexual. And what about Crassius Curio in Morrowind, who was just so over the top and bloody fantastic that he seemingly swung both ways? If you're going to add an option like that, you had best be fair to everyone.
Also, what - children asking questions about stuff in video games? I'm pretty sure that's what the "M" label is for. Not that everyone pays mind to that, but I digress.
Huzzah!
"[...] for the lives of gods are not what mortals think and matters that weigh only years to mortals weigh on gods forever." The Tribunal Temple, Nerevar at Red Mountain
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There was actually an instance in Oblivion that I had a week or so ago where
I thought that this Khajiit was actually very pretty, in comparison to all the
other Khajiit that I had seen. For a brief instance, I desired a relationship. I
realized how very lonely I was. But then it struck me as odd how rigid she
was when I went to introduce myself. I moved on.
If they improve the NPCs, then perhaps relationships can work. No naughty
bits, though. If Bethesda can't sell to Australia, then how will Yahtzee critique
the bajeezus out of it? And of course some of my fellow forumers are from the
grand old outback.
I think I'll pass on The Elder Sims. I mean, I pull out my sword to silence my nagging wife, and the next thing I know, I've got a bounty for domestic violence!
Nah, I'm gonna say pass on this one. Let Fable it's "special" thing. I'm too busy slaying beasties to worry about one at home! LOL
"Consider the colossal arrogance of our proposition to bring Peace and Enlightenment to the East..."
- The Eastern Provinces
It's a tricky situation that the devs seem to be in. With Morrowind they decided to pass on full nudity so that the game could be released with the rating "Teen" rather than "Mature" and therefore appeal to a wider audience. With Oblivion, since they had already stepped the rating up to "Mature" through other means, I was surprised to find that they hadn't decided to just have at the full nudity. I guess they understand that there is a difference between an "M" rating for blood, gore, and language, and an "M" rating for sexual situations and full nudity. If nothing else they probably figured it was unnecessary and if players wanted it badly enough, our well-accomplished modelers and texturers could give it to us without Bethesda getting themselves tangled up in it. They probably determined that it would not contribute much in the way of substance and might even wind up distracting from actual gameplay.
Considering that the Elder Scrolls series is a sandbox RPG with virtually limitless roleplay opportunities (depending how far the player chooses to stretch/mod things) it would make sense to throw some true "romance" or "family" opportunities into the mix. (I'm tired of being a lonely nobody rolling around like a tumbleweed with no family.) After all, these are components of real life that you would assume Tamriel's inhabitants would enjoy as well and would add substance. And also, one would assume the dev's goal is immersion anyway. This means romance for both genders. As to whether or not homosexual relationships would be recognized in-game: First the mindset of the characters in this world would need to be considered. If homosexuality is very taboo in their society, it would be unrealistic to allow many gender-independent romantic relationships. If they were integrated, and phobia is the case, certain measures would need to be taken in dialogue and disposition values to make it not look like an afterthought. Also, homosexuality being a component in the game might turn some people off (even though no one would be forcing their hand-- but some people are put off by it simply being made available), perhaps narrowing the audience. The dev's are gonna wanna go in the direction that'll maximize profit by broadening the audience while still keeping the core of their fans in mind. We've been fans all this time without the naughty Dunmer boys rubbing up on the other naughty Dunmer boys, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't start now.
All in all, I think that well-developed romance and family situations that cater to both genders are a must-have at this point to add immersion to the series. A wide variety of "actors" available as possible spouses/sweethearts with a range of personalities, "quests", and dispositions I think would assimilate this otherwise undeveloped facet of the series. We should also keep in mind that not all relationships are rosy (and things aren't always rosy in Tamriel anyway). As far as the more "private" matters of couple life, I think it would be best to (and I think they will probably) leave it be in order to reach a larger audience and to forgo the risk of "offending" some players. Undoubtedly, modding will pick up the slack in this area, and no harm, no foul. Dialogue and exchange of gold for "services" is another matter, I think, though... After all, they did it in Fallout 3 rather tastefully, unless I missed something.
If they do integrate these things into Skyrim, I'm sure they'll be rather creative, even if it isn't as expansive as we might like it to be.
1. Yes, definitely. There's a lot that could be added to TES, and I see romance being one of them. You could receive unique quests from your partners, or maybe fall in love with your companion. There would have to be a lot of choices though, and of course it must be optional.
2. Hmm, maybe. I'm probably the only one here who hates seeingallthe scantily-clad anime women in half the games out now, but seeing as Bethesda seem to be all about diversity and realistic people, I can see them putting this in for both genders, while keeping their dignity. As for sex itself? Well, they could always include cutscenes insinuating it. I doubt they could get away with anything too graphic though.
I would like optional romance but no sex. Sure, there can be references or books like The Lusty Argonian Maid but no full-blown [&@%!].
Reason No 1: Ratings. The younger generation (12-16 years) probably wouldn't be able to get it. Imagine waiting five years
for a game and then not being able to get it because of the stupid, over-sensitive rating system.
Reason No 2: Controversion. It would give Bethesda a bad name (in my opinion, complete bull), because anything that has sex
in it obviously starves African children, pollutes and inspires rapists.
Reason No 3: Tradition. Bethesda games never had sex in them, they didn't need it. Their games manage to be awesome
even without the support of perverts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it could only appeal to them.
Optional romance, sure, I might use it sometime. If the game is like Oblivion, though I doubt it will be, I probably won't use it very often, since NPCs in the house seem to get in the way. *cough*Move Eyja!*cough*
But for some roleplaying it would be nice.
I probably wouldn't care about 'bits', it might be a good angle on the infamous-publicity side of things.
There'd be uproar, it'd be on the news, major free advertisement of something that will draw in alot of people.
Even if they're just buying it to see it with their own eyes, some percentage of those will probably actually play the game.
But then it'd probably get banned in some countries, and that'd suck. So not really.
If they involve romancin', a m4m option would be nice.
'Controversy', btw, isn't necessarily a bad thing. The aforementioned publicity helps, and the games will never be popular with extremists, I mean; the fans are calling for the ability to decapitate and mutilate enemies' bodies. C'mon.
If you take games as the devils' instruments, then you're never gonna say "I don't mind you murdering, dismembering and shooting, but you're not allowed to play a game where people love each other and can kiss."
adamflint wrote:Reason No 1: Ratings. The younger generation (12-16 years) probably wouldn't be able to get it. Imagine waiting five years for a game and then not being able to get it because of the stupid, over-sensitive rating system.
I don't think many 11 years old kids are waiting for Skyrim at the moment...
I'll pass on the mature content, thanks. I don't want to be missing out on Skyrim just because everyone else wanted to see their character gettin' it on with some NPC
Seriousley. I am anticipating Skyrim more than any other game Ive played. Finding out if there is mature content, (At my age) I would have to miss out on it. I know it may seem a bit stupid of me saying "mom and dad dont let me look at tits on my computer screen" But, it is true, and there is no other way I can put it, not until I am sixteen (2 years from now) But I dont want to wait an extra year to play ES V. I go with romance but no nudity.
I think there should be mature THEMES, but no actual content. Like a quest line featuring an affair or something, to make the game a bit more grown up, but I think including explicit stuff like visual scenes of sex is just uneccessary and would create pointless controversy. Plus computer generated nudity is for nerds ;P
DeathByScribb wrote:I think I'll pass on The Elder Sims. I mean, I pull out my sword to silence my nagging wife, and the next thing I know, I've got a bounty for domestic violence!
Nah, I'm gonna say pass on this one. Let Fable it's "special" thing. I'm too busy slaying beasties to worry about one at home! LOL
Even if there is simulated romance in Skyrim, you are in no way bound to take part in it. If it's there, it's there, and unless part of the main quest involves you hooking up with and marrying someone, then there's no reason for you to take part in it if it's there.
I personally support the addition of a Romance feature, sans the naughtier stuff that would prevent some of the younger audience from playing it. If you want it, it's there; if you don't, no one is forcing you to use it. I view potential same-gender relationships in a romance feature the same way. I personally don't support them, but if Bethesda chose to allow them to appeal to a wider audience, then alright; I won't, however, be using that particular part of the romance feature.
Some people are forgetting that we had some "naughty bits" in Oblivion as well. Remember the quest that you had to find out about the gang of female thieves? It was hinted that they had sex with the guys they robbed. It was a reference. It didn't showed us the true act. It's like, some people thought they had sex and some people just thought they didn't had. They gave us the thing to feed our imagination.
They should have adult content hinted as references. Just like in this case. If you want to believe something had happened then go on.
I don't want to have a family in the game, it would feel strange and a bit boring. 'Course it won't be a thing that you have to do, you could just pass but I wouldn't want it. Period.
.........................................
As far as mature content goes, don't worry they'll keep it.
Use of drugs and alcohol: Skooma, beer, wine, etc are only one of the many examples.
i think the main issue here is to figure out how friendship, romance (and sex eventually) can benefit the player's character. maybe have a girlfriend/wife can give you atribute or skill bonuses, maybe marrying a noble can give you access to new quests or properties, maybe be seen in public with your family can raise your personality. Sleep in your own house with your wife can give you a bonus otherwise unavailable if you sleep alone, same thing with sex.
a, long, well written quest that involves romance also can be a very rewarding formula to put this kind of content into the game.
i think it's all a matter of how bethesda can put this new piece of gameplay whitout alter the core spirit of the TES saga too much.
and, well, first post around here...Hi to all, hope we can get along well
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