The Dragon Breaks

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The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

The Dragon Breaks are extremely interesting and controversial events in TES lore.

The known Dragon Breaks are:
1) The Marukhati Selective Dragon Break
2) The Warp in the West that results in dozens of kingdoms around the Iliac Bay becoming four while Talos and Mannimarco undergo apotheosis
3) The first activation of Numidium
4) The Tribunal tapping into the power of the Heart of Lorkhan which may or may not be related to the disappearance of the Dwemer

There are many interesting books on the topic such as Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?, The Dragon Break Re-Examined, and The Warp in the West.

This portion of issue 199 of Game Informer provides a little background (Taken from my post on Towers and Stones)
Game Informer wrote:All the organization in the world can't hold back Murphy's Law, but sometimes companies find a playful way to deal with narrative discrepancies. "One of the main things we've always done with the Elder Scrolls is to maintain deniability" explains Kurt Kuhlman, a senior game designer at Bethesda Softworks. "As long as the lore is presented from the point of view of someone within the fictional world, it's okay for someone else from within the world to have a different point of view. As soon as we step outside the game and say 'This is actually true.' it's much harder to reconcile any contradictions."

A classic example of this in the Elder Scrolls lore is referred to as "The Dragon Break." During development of Morrowind, the writers at Bethesda noticed a gap in their timeline. Nothing happened historically over a period of over 1,000 years. Details of the world's history jumped from the year 1190 to the year 2260, when the later date likely should have been 1260. The gap was likely a result of a typo that happened when someone input dates on Bethesda's internal timeline. But before the typo was discovered, the game's fiction had already expanded past the point of making a simple fix. Events and details taking place after 2260 had already been established, so altering the world's chronology would have been a massive headache. The solution? Maintain deniability

"One of the designers decided to jump on that and started writing about the Dragon Break - an event where a group of religious fanatics actually 'broke time' through some esoteric ritual," Kuhlman explains. "I responded with another in-game book, The Dragon Break Reconsidered, which explained away the lost 1,200 years as a simple error in interpreting ancient records." Which of these explanations is true Elder Scrolls lore? Bethesda has never officially specified, and likely never will.
The Dragon Breaks are large gaps in time when nothing occurs, they may be related to Akatosh, God of Time. The Maruhkati Selective, a sect of the Alessian Order may have correlations with the first Dragon Break. When a Dragon Break occurs, everyone in Tamriel, possibly in the entire planet Nirn fall unconscious and can't remember anything that goes on during the break. Khajiit claim to be able to see through the events of the Dragon Breaks, suggesting some relation to Moon Sugar (used to make skooma). See here for more info on the Khajiit.
Last edited by mptrj on Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by Dlarsh »

I find it interesting to note that these have (to date, at least) always occured when new gods/god like beings are created (or in the case of the Dwemer, almost created). Is it an attempt by the Gods to prevent others from joining their ranks? Or perhaps simply a natural reaction of the world/universe caused by an immense influx of power into one point?

Unfortunately, according to the quote from Bethesda, we will likely never know (beyond the obvious "they were covering their butts" of course ;)).
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

Erm... The thing with the Dwemer is a theorized dragonbreak... There is no acctual reffrence for the dissapperance of Dwarves to be a dragonbreak (only the book "Where were you...")

The two dragon breaks that are recognized as such are:
1) "Maruhkati Selective" dragonbreak - Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?
2) "Miracle of Peace" dragonbreak - The Warp in the West

There is a book on each one that descibes it best...

These are our best source for a disscusion on dragonbreaks...
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

Dlarsh wrote:I find it interesting to note that these have (to date, at least) always occured when new gods/god like beings are created (or in the case of the Dwemer, almost created). Is it an attempt by the Gods to prevent others from joining their ranks? Or perhaps simply a natural reaction of the world/universe caused by an immense influx of power into one point?

Unfortunately, according to the quote from Bethesda, we will likely never know (beyond the obvious "they were covering their butts" of course ;)).
Well, activating Numidium didn't have much to do with apotheosis, so I think I'm leaning more towards an overflow of energy... Maybe apotheosis doesn't affect the planes of oblivion? When the Champion of Cyrodiil undergoes apotheosis in the Shivering Isles, there isn't a Dragon Break... Also, the final battle of the main quest in Oblivion is argued to be a Dragon Break, any thoughts?
kertaw48 wrote:Erm... The thing with the Dwemer is a theorized dragonbreak... There is no acctual reffrence for the dissapperance of Dwarves to be a dragonbreak (only the book "Where were you...")

The two dragon breaks that are recognized as such are:
1) "Maruhkati Selective" dragonbreak - Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?
2) "Miracle of Peace" dragonbreak - The Warp in the West

There is a book on each one that descibes it best...

These are our best source for a disscusion on dragonbreaks...
See top of page, there are a few more.
Last edited by mptrj on Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

So except the two verfied ones which events could be seen as dragonbreaks?

I'm talking of course about an event corelated with a tower/stone and a mysterious loss of time...
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by r   »

mptrj wrote:When the Champion of Cyrodiil undergoes apotheosis in the Shivering Isles, there isn't a Dragon Break...
Yes, but that's outside of Mundus, outside Akatosh's sphere of influence, and New Sheogorath loses all of his godly powers when he returns to Mundus.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

r wrote:
mptrj wrote:When the Champion of Cyrodiil undergoes apotheosis in the Shivering Isles, there isn't a Dragon Break...
Yes, but that's outside of Mundus, outside Akatosh's sphere of influence, and New Sheogorath loses all of his godly powers when he returns to Mundus.
Hmm... yes, bad choice of words. When I was saying apotheosis doesn't affect oblivion (lower case "o"), I was talking about the planes of oblivion, not the game.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

So... which events could be taken as dragonbreaks?
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

At the top of this page, mptrj wrote:The Dragon Breaks are extremely interesting and controversial events in TES lore. The 1st Era Dragon Break that results in the disappearance of the Dwemer, the Warp in the West that results in dozens of kingdoms around the Iliac Bay becoming four when Talos and Mannimarco undergo apotheosis, the first activation of Numidium, and the Tribunal tapping into the power of the Heart of Lorkhan are all of the known Dragon Breaks.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

Tribunal tapping into the power of the Heart of Lorkhan?
How is that a dragonbreak? :?

Also what happened when the Numidium was first activated?
You mean by Tiber Septim or the Dwemer?
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by r   »

kertaw48 wrote:Tribunal tapping into the power of the Heart of Lorkhan?
How is that a dragonbreak? :?
The effects of a Dragon Break aren't necessarily obvious. Akatosh could have limited the power they acquired, or prevented anything from going wrong and binding them to the same fate as the Dwemer. Same with Numidium - it was designed to actually be a man-made divine being but Akatosh could have intervened with this and stopped it undergoing a true apotheosis.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by chromalfean »

um, I thought the dragon breaks were defined by unexplained lapses in time? I don't recall that being the case in morrowind, so I'd have a hard time buying that it would have been considered such an event without some other definitive proof or canon lore to back up that claim.

to my knowlege the canon lore only cites TWO instances of a "true" "dragon break" and the dev's seem to comfim this, so I think we should avoid the temptation of slapping the label of a "dragon break" on every apotheosis that occurs in-game, again, unless there's sufficient legitimate proof to support that conclusion.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by r   »

They're not necessarily lapses in time.

If we presume that time and space are linked in Mundus like they are in our own universe, a Dragon Break could also be a lapse in space. It is an intervention by Akatosh to ensure that reality progresses as 'normally' as possible.

Although I agree that it's rather convenient to just say "Dragon break" every time something inexplicable happens, it is an integral part of Elder Scrolls lore. Remember it is Akatosh who holds the most power over Mundus - it is his essence in the form of Direnni Tower that holds it all together.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

I doubt that Akatosh is "in charge" of dragonbreaks... Only reason why they are called DRAGONbreaks is because Akatosh is god of time...
And the Selective broke HIM, not vice-versa... There is nothing that would suggest that the dragonbreaks are in his control...

Like chromalfean said, we can't label everything as a dragonbreak... Not even a potential one...

Ingame they are discontinuations of time caused by meddling in powers beyond one's understandment...
In RL they are a way of explaining unexplainable events...

These two thing should be kept in mind while tagging smth. as a potential dragonbreak...
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

I got the info on Dragon Breaks from here.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

Oh my God, who wrote that?
That's incorrect information...
I don't remeber Vivec ever mentioning tapping to be a dragonbreak...
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

Benould wrote the bit about Vivec & the Tribunal, and Temple Zero wrote about Numidium activating.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by chromalfean »

I'm with kertaw on this one. that's pretty sketchy, especially the references cited. the egg of time? seriously?!? that calls for some huge leaps over a mountain of speculation to make that connection, unless he can read Aldmeris ...

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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

Well, the Numiduim could be a dragonbreak, but without a mention of lost time there isn't anything to support the theory...
And the Tribunal tapping the Heart... Well, let's just say there are much better examples of dragonbreaks...
Like the dissapperance of dwarves!
It's a mysteriuos event that happened while the Dwemer were messing with a higher power...
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

Hold on, let's get our facts straight. In 1E 700, The Battle of Red Mountain occurs between Chimer and Dwemer, which results in the death of both Indoril Nerevar and Dumac Dwarfking. Some time in the same year the Tribunal taps the Heart of Lorkhan to achieve godly powers. Also in the same year the Dwemer disappear. My guess is that the Tribunal somehow caused a Dragon Break which led to the disappearance of the Dwemer.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

It does happen in the same year, but FIRST the Dwemer dissapear, THEN the Tribunal tap into the Heart...
The Dwemer destoryed themself(or achieved immortality) because they were rushed by the Chimer troops storming Kagrenac's lab...
He shat his pants and did the only thing he could(smth. with the Heart)...

This event is not neccesarily a dragonbreak, but with Bethesda every unexplained phenomena turns out to be a dragonbreak...

But lets' focus on the two universally recoginzed dragonbreaks...
Why was one local(Iliac Bay) and one global?
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by mptrj »

Warp wasn't really local, I don't think. I mean, everyone in Tamriel was "asleep" (unconscious, at least) when the Warp happened, right? If not, maybe Akatosh (or whoever makes Dragon Breaks happen) realized that the problem was only near the Iliac Bay?
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

Well if by "asleep" you mean frozzen in time, than yeah i think it could have happened...
But then who disscovered the missing day?
Miracle of Peace lasted from the 9th to the 11th with nobody(in the Iliac bay) remebering the day in between...
During that one missing day the face of Iliac bay was completly changed...

So who did notice the 10th?
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by r   »

kertaw48 wrote: So who did notice the 10th?
The Khajiit?

Maybe it's a bit futile trying to work out what a Dragon Break is, what causes them, what events qualify as a Dragon Break... Remember they are a physical reshaping of Creation, an event that challenges mortal comprehension. If we woke up tomorrow and there was peace in the Middle East and the North Pole had moved to Nuneaton I doubt anyone could tell you why it had happened.
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Re: The Dragon Breaks

Post by kertaw48 »

It maybe is futile, but what else should we do? :?

Also I think that the Miracle of Peace was infact a local dragonbreak...
Everyone else experienced time normaly, while in Iliac bay, the time was frozzen to those not using the Mantella, while it was still being used by all six(I think :? ) people who gained from it, finnaly ending up in the hands of the Underking who destroys it granting himself death...
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